Kneading and Braiding Bread

[Swisskaese]

I have a very good recipe for challah, but since I moved to Israel I am having problems with the bread holding its shape. This recipe has two risings and I braid the bread after the first rising. Everytime I make it the dough spreads out and the braiding is lost. What am I doing wrong?

The ingredients are as follows:

2 C. lukewarm Water

3 pkg. dry Yeast

8 C. unbleached Flour (or more)

1-1/2 C. Sugar

1-1/2 tsp. Salt

1/2 lb. Butter or Margarine

4 beaten Eggs

1 beaten Egg for glaze

BTW - I use the 3-braid method.

[Comfort Me]

I haven't made the recipe, but there are a few lines of inquiry I want to explore:

What kind of flour are you using? Your recipe may have been developed using American hard wheat, which may have more gluten than the four avaiable in eretz Yisrael. (I don't know this for a fact, I'm just guessing.) Try adding a few tablespoons of wheat gluten with the flour and see if this improves the dough.

Also, 3 packages of yeast seems like a little much to me. IT could be that you have too much yeast, which can affect structure. Have you ever made it using 2 packages? It would definitely work, you can trust me on this, but it might also affect your rising times, so I wouldn't try it for the first time on eruv Shabbat in the winter, when days are short!

I'm really amazed by the 1/2 pound of butter! I'm not an expert, like some here, so maybe someone else can confirm or debunk my thinking that the high fat content could also affect the shape.

If asked which I think is most likely, I'd say the flour, since the recipe worked for you before you moved. Oh -- another question: Are you in Jerusalem? Elevation also affects breads.

Let me know what happens and what you figure out.

I'm also going to make the recipe -- I'm curious about the 1/2 pound of butter! It sounds so yummy!

Shabbat Shalom!

[Swisskaese]

Thanks for the info Comfort Me. Shavuah Tov!

I live in Tel Aviv. I make mine with butter flavored margarine, unless I am going to have a dairy meal.

I will try the recipe with two packets of yeast and let you know. Unfortunately, my oven stopped working and I have to get it fixed. So, it make be a couple of weeks before I can make another batch.

[James MacGuire]

I have to agree that the flour is probably the most likely source of problems, and the first thing I would look into. Braids which melt together and a sagging effect indicate a lack of strength in the dough which besides the flour, could be the result of a lack of " fermentedness".

Best results are usually obtained with longer, cooler fermentations. If there is no preferment involved ( i.e. dough made from scratch in one step) , the bulk fermentation of the dough should be three hours or so, folding the dough gently over itself about halfway through. Certainly, if the dough seems weak and sluggish, it would be best to let things ferment more before shaping.

Look into the amount of yeast, which does seem on the high side, but also the temperature of your kitchen. If things are warmer and more humid than you're used to, than the dough will rise much more quickly, too quickly to gain the structure which is the result of longer fermentations.

Another thing is that besides the possibility that the flour has lower gluten, or in fact as a result of this if it is the case, the amount of egg and liquids you are using might be too much for the flour and the dough too wet . The more gluten in a flour ( and, relatively speaking, North American flours have lots....)

Thanks and good luck

James

[Comfort Me]

So - Swiss -- have you tried any modifications to the recipe? How did it work? I've been thinking about you for two weeks now! Any improvement? If so, what helped?

Aidan

[stovetop]

I have a very good recipe for challah, but since I moved to Israel I am having problems with the bread holding its shape. This recipe has two risings and I braid the bread after the first rising. Everytime I make it the dough spreads out and the braiding is lost. What am I doing wrong?

Braid the bread on the second rising and do not let it rise out, oil the surface, this will hopefully hold its shape

stove

[Swisskaese]

I tried to fix my oven and found out that I have to buy a new one. I am still without an oven because I haven't had time to go shopping for one. I will let you know when I make the bread.

Stovetop, I do braid the bread on the second rise. I explained it incorrectly when I wrote the recipe. I have a feeling that James is correct in stating that it is probably the flour. I am going to try and see if the baking supply store near my house sells imported flour.

[stovetop]

I hope it works out for you

stovetop