Let's talk zongzi (joong, Chinese Tamales)

[Gastro888]

Joong means DRAGON BOATING as well. Our festival is in 3 weeks here in the DC area. I'll be begging my mom to make some Toisanese joong (heavy on the lieu please) for my team. Oh wait some of them can't eat pork...I'll just eat their joong for them. hee hee.

[sheetz]

Since we're having another Joong cook-off I thought I'd resurrect this thread and comment on the Joong vs Nor Mai Gai debate.

At first, the two dishes appear to be the more or less the same thing: glutinous rice wrapped by some sort of leaves. However, the difference between the two dishes becomes much more apparent when you look at their respective origins. Joong has always been pretty much what it is, i.e., glutinous rice boiled inside bamboo leaves. OTOH, the classic dish of Nor Mai Gai is nothing like the sticky rice wrapped in lotus leaves that you find in restaurants nowadays. True Nor Mai Gai, meaning "glutinous rice chicken," is an elaborate dish that requires hours if not days of preparation time. To make this dish, the bones and flesh of a whole chicken are removed from the bird while at the same time leaving the entire skin intact. Then, the meat is separated from the bones, stir-fried, and then combined with glutinous rice and other ingredients to form a stuffing. This stuffing is then placed into the chicken skin, and the whole thing is reshaped back into the form of a chicken. Finally, this "chicken" is deep fried until crisp.

Obviously, this dish is extremely labor intensive, which is why you won't ever see it prepared in the traditional way in restaurants. Instead, what you will get is an approximation of the dish, and that is exactly what the glutinous rice wrapped with lotus leaves is supposed to be. It's the most common way of approximating true Nor Mai Gai but it certainly isn't the only way. Another way I've seen it done is by dipping balls of glutinous rice stuffing in a batter and deep frying them until crisp. I'm sure there are dozens of other ways, as well.

Edited May 6, 2005 by sheetz (log)

[Dejah]

The first time we served dim sum in our restaurant, batter sticky rice balls with pieces of salty chicken and peanuts inside were how we served them. They were a pain to make and quite rich from the frying, so we switched to the lotus leave ones. We were able to make up a big batch and freeze them. Resteam for 20 minutes when needed.

I DO remember having the traditional way you described, sheetz...a long time ago.

[Prawncrackers]

As i had some spare time yesterday, i decided to make up a batch of Lo Mei Fan to store in the freezer. This is what i would call a ready meal!!

When wrapping them up in the usual way taught by my mum, i realised that the way i was wrapping them wasn't in any recipe i'd ever seen for Lo Mei fan (or Joong). I wrap them with two horizontal bamboo leaves first then roll a third one to around it all to form a pillow shape. In every recipe i've ever come across, it's just two leaves folded to make a pyramid shape. I suppose the pyramid shape it better to eat as street food but the pillow shape is more substantial.

My family is originally from Hong Kong, is the way i'm doing it a regional variation? If so, what other variations are out there. I'm always keen to learn new techniques, anybody have any other ways of wrapping theirs?

[hzrt8w]

It is interesting that you combined the ingredients of Lor Mei Fan and the wrapping and presentation of Joong. Did you boil your creation in water? For how long?

Did you use only 2 bamboo leaves for 1 Lor Mei Fan/Joong? They must be very wide. I have not seen a wrapping done like yours: first along the length then wrapped across.

Edited May 9, 2007 by hzrt8w (log)

[sheetz]

Prawncrackers, I haven't seen anyone doing it like you do, either. Still looks delicious, though.

[Prawncrackers]

It is interesting that you combined the ingredients of Lor Mei Fan and the wrapping and presentation of Joong.  Did you boil your creation in water?  For how long?

Did you use only 2 bamboo leaves for 1 Lor Mei Fan/Joong?  They must be very wide.  I have not seen a wrapping done like yours: first along the length then wrapped across.

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You're right they are like a Joong/Lo Mei Fan hybrid!! Though I would never boil them as i suspect the flavour would be lost. Instead, from frozen they take 20-25 mins to steam. When i'm feeling lazy they are the perfect size for a meal with some veggie accompaniments, or just as a mid-day snack. In fact, they seem to go walking when my wife's around - i'm sure she gives them away to her work colleagues!

I usually use 3 leaves for 1 'pillow', but if they are big leaves you can get away with using 2. I'm pretty sure my mum and i aren't alone in wrapping them this way as i've seen other old timer 'Hak Gar' folk do it this way.

I would make regular savoury joong but i never seem to have any leftover roast pork/duck around - surprise

[hzrt8w]

Ah, steaming! That looks like the Cantonese dim sum item "lor mei gai", which is conventionally wrapped with a lotus leaf and steamed.

[miladyinsanity]

I've seen them wrapped like this, and yes, it's a regional variation. I just cannot remember where my cousin's in-laws are from off-hand.

I told my mother we should wrap them like this 'cause it's easier. She told me that I wanted wrapped like this because I wanted bigger dumplings--true. LOL.

[sheetz]

I think this way is only easier if you are using cooked rice. If you are using raw rice the pyramidal shape I think is easier.

[Prawncrackers]

I told my mother we should wrap them like this 'cause it's easier. She told me that I wanted wrapped like this because I wanted bigger dumplings--true. LOL.

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Ya, your mother's dead right there!! It's probably the main reason i stopped making the pyramid shaped ones

[hzrt8w]

Ya, your mother's dead right there!! 

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I think there is a small problem with this statement... doesn't sound too good.

[Dejah]

So much catching up to do! Back from holidays, back to teaching, then my computer got infected when my housesitter's gf opened a "postcard". The tech said +3000 viruses! They had to wipe my hard drive clean.

Anyhow, did someone say "Joong"?!

How about these?

http://www.hillmans.soupbo.com/soos/joongzi.html

or

http://www.hillmans.soupbo.com/soos/joong2.html

It's getting to that time of the year again!

I bought some fresh bamboo leaves while I was in Winnipeg. At least I won't have to soak them before using. Mom tells me I should still boil them in vinegar and water beofre using.

[miladyinsanity]

Ya, your mother's dead right there!! 

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I think there is a small problem with this statement... doesn't sound too good.

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Nah. It just tells us quite clearly he's been living in the UK for awhile.

And it's not true!

I've to help wrap and the pyramid one never turns out right for me.

[Cookwithlove]

Hi,

Since you post picture of the Loh Mei Fan, I have returned here often. I like how you wrapped it. Look like parcel, and let me be bold and ask if you could post pictures of the sequence how you wrap the Lor mei Fan for us to see?

Thank.

[Prawncrackers]

Nah. It just tells us quite clearly he's been living in the UK for awhile.

And it's not true!

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Whoops, my sincerest apologies for that milady. A CHOY!!

Cookwithlove, unfortunately i had both hands full so i couldn't take any photos of the wrapping process. I made quite a few this time round so it may be a few weeks before make another batch. Will make sure to take some photos next time and resurrect this thread. Hopefully you'll still be interested?

Dejah, love those links.

[Cookwithlove]

Nah. It just tells us quite clearly he's been living in the UK for awhile.

And it's not true!

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Whoops, my sincerest apologies for that milady. A CHOY!!

Cookwithlove, unfortunately i had both hands full so i couldn't take any photos of the wrapping process. I made quite a few this time round so it may be a few weeks before make another batch. Will make sure to take some photos next time and resurrect this thread. Hopefully you'll still be interested?

Dejah, love those links.

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Thanks! look forward to it.

[Gastro888]

My mom wraps our joong in the pillow shape. Is that traditional Toisanese? She knows how to do the twist pillow but that's hard. She dislikes how I wrap my joong. They look like mishappened lumps of coal.

[miladyinsanity]

Gastro Jie Jie, we can sit in the same corner together. That's what mine look like too.

[CFT]

My mother (from HK) has always wrapped in the parcel/pillow shape, but I think only with 2 leaves. I don't remember seeing a separate "around the middle" leaf like the first set of photos in this thread. They look more like Dejah's but without the half twist.

[Dejah]

As mentioned up-post, I had some "fresh" bamboo leaves from the Chinese grocery in Wpg. (My local grocer said they had to have been frozen for shipping.)

On our May long weekeend, I got brave and invited 2 of my female students up for a joong lesson. One young lady is from China, the other from Mexico. I had all the ingredients prepared as I figured they'd have enough to cope with in the wrapping.

The girls had a blast, and did pretty well. I did take some pictures, but they are on the handycam, so must wait for hubby to have time to download.

I did boil the leaves in vinegar water. They smelled like lovely green tea, and the colour was a beautiful green. However, we found they split easier along the grain than the rehydrated ones. The drying process must toughen them up!

We used half jasmin and half glutinous rice. Boiling took 2.5 hours. The joong leaves retained that brilliant green - so pretty. I had cured some pork belly (SO GOOD! ), salted duck egg yolk, peanuts, mushrooms, ha mai, lapcheung, onion. Yeah, Yeah, I know, so much lieu but they were delicious. We made about 40 packets, and I sent 30 home with the girls. They shared with their classmates for lunch next day.

Inspite of them splitting, I've asked my son to pick up some more fresh leaves for me. I'm going to be doing my own batch soon. I'll use fresh and rehydrated ones. Have a lot of relatives coming this August for my son's wedding, so they'll come in handy for lunches.