Let's talk zongzi (joong, Chinese Tamales)

[Gary Soup]

There was a thread on this a year ago, but due to a somehat confusing title, it wandered all over the Chinese dumpling map. Let's stick to the topic the way the wrapper sticks to an over-cooked zongzi this time!

Duanwu, or "Dragon Boat Festival", is June 22. Time to get ready to make and eat zongzi. What will you be making or having?

As usual, my wife, probably in collaboration with my MIL, will be making "Jiaxing zongzi" with characteristic regional minimalism: nothing but soy sauce and salty pork in the savory version, bean paste in the sweet. No football sized zongzi stuffed with egg, chestnuts, corn, peanuts, chinese sausage and Ball Park Franks like the Cantonese make.

Here's a nifty little tutorial on Zongzi. You might call it "Zongzi for Dummies."

[Edited to add link to previous thread]

Edited May 31, 2004 by Gary Soup (log)

[herbacidal]

Them Crazy Northerners.

That Zongzi looks too dark and sinister.

I take it the rice is soaked in soy sauce?

[Ben Hong]

Gary, I am so envious of the fact that you are able to enjoy all the traditional festival goodies that I used to enjoy when my Mother was still around. Unfortunately, since she and her generation of family womenfolk have passed on, the only time I get to savour treats like joong is while I am on the odd foray into a bigger city. My English born non-Chinese wife thinks that tradition can be bought at the local supermarket. Even my younger female Chinese relatives find it a pain to even attempt this type of "geezer cuisine".

Back to the topic at hand, are you insinuating that there is another type of real joong other than the Cantonese kind . The ones with peanuts, sausage, salt duck egg, mushrooms, mung beans, etc., etc.,???? The 12 ounce wonders that masquerades as a mobile feast, the geometric conundrums of glutinous gustatory mystery ?? . I always thought that the northern variety were so meagerly endowed because of the severe paucity of ingredients way up north

[PCL]

There are loads of other types.

The hokkien variety includes salted duck egg (hard boiled) yolk....very tasty

There are also dessert varieties using a more translucent rice, with red bean inside, or just plain.

And this thread has just reminded me to go check with my Aunt to see if she's making 'em again this year.

And a question, do you guys eat yours dipped into a little sugar? A very cantonese thing.

[herbacidal]

There are loads of other types.

The hokkien variety includes salted duck egg (hard boiled) yolk....very tasty

There are also dessert varieties using a more translucent rice, with red bean inside, or just plain.

And this thread has just reminded me to go check with my Aunt to see if she's making 'em again this year.

And a question, do you guys eat yours dipped into a little sugar? A very cantonese thing.

Is it a very Cantonese thing?

Wasn't sure.

Lately (past few years), haven't eaten it for sugar much.

Just been boiling it, and eating it a few minutes after.

When I was a kid, I used to eat it mainly cold, with sugar.

[Gary Soup]

Them Crazy Northerners.

That Zongzi looks too dark and sinister.

I take it the rice is soaked in soy sauce?

You got it. Oddly enough enough, I found the recipe for Jiaxing zongzi as made by the famous Wufang Zongzi Shop on a Philadelphia Chinatown Website. It's pretty much the way my wife does it, although I wasn't aware of the sugar in the bath for the rice. I'll have to keep my eye on her this time.

Wufang's Jiaxing Zongzi:

There are two main kinds of zongzi-Guangdong and Jiaxing style. Although they are both in the shape of the pyramid, Guangdong zongzi are longer and have various kinds of stuffings. Jiaxing zongzi are smaller and are usually stuffed with pork or bean paste.

There are a number of famous zongzi stores in China. Wufang Zongzi Store in Jiaxing city, Zhejiang Province, is one of them. It has existed for more than fifty years and is well-known for the high quality ingredients, the distinctive flavour and the careful preparation of its zongzi.

To make zongzi, first wash the glutinous rice quickly without allowing it to macerate, drain it for about fifteen minutes, and then mix it with soy sauce, sugar, and a little salt. Many master chefs use cane sugar to sweeten the rice and make the dumpling look brighter. Next, dice the pork for the stuffing and marinate it in a mixture of choice soy sauce, sugar, fine salt, kitchen wine, and monosodium glutamate. Then the wrapping begins. First fold the bamboo or the reed leaves into a cone. Fill it about one third full with rice, and bind it tightly with thread. Finally, put zongzi into a pot and boil for four hours before eating.

[tissue]

Them Crazy Northerners.

That Zongzi looks too dark and sinister.

I take it the rice is soaked in soy sauce?

These are the kinds I like. The long, shanghai kind with piece of fatty pork in the middle. They are delicious.

[Yuki]

The one my grandmother makes is with rice, fatty pork, green bean paste, and salty egg yolk. I could only eat half of it each time before getting sick. Usually eat it plain or with a bit of soya sauce, but I used to eat it with white sugar.

Also I like the little one with red bean paste fillings, they are so good with syrup. I think Joong should be simple, and fatty. Nothing is more gross than a joong made with no fat. Also no abalone, shark fin, mushroom, dry scallop, chinese sausage, chicken or whatever people find in their kitchen sink.

[Jon Tseng]

I prefer the cantonese variety - with every-but-the-kitchen-sink, including chestnuts

best homemade though - the supermarket ones always tend to skimp a bit

I notice dim sum places often have little pillow shaped ones on the menu - given how rib sticking these are, they often make an excellent budget lunch on their own!

cheerio

J

[Hest88]

When I was little all my older female relatives would get together to make them, but now they say it's too much trouble. Unfortunately, I never learned the skill either. My mother now buys them from one of my aunts, makes them and sells them to friends and relatives.

I never liked the filling at all; I just liked the rice. My mother, knowing that I pick out the filling, will usually bring me the kind with just salty pork and mung beans--just enough filling to flavor the rice--so I get as much rice to filling ratio as possible!

[tissue]

best homemade though - the supermarket ones always tend to skimp a bit

Yeah I agree that it's best homemade. But I found a Shanghainese restaurant that makes 'em. I gotta order them in advance because they won't sell me their ready made ones. I ask for 25 of them and they are tasty and the rice is soft and gooey like the best kind of glutinous rice. My main beef with the supermarket kinds is that even if you steam them, the rice doesn't come out soft enough. Bah!

I don't know how to make these and I probably never will. Too much labor... but if anyone would like to make 'em for me... I won't turn you down.

[Dejah]

I am one of the lucky ones, to have my 95 year old mother to teach me all the old ways.

My mom, my 18 year old daughter and I made 85 packets of joong this Saturday...for Mom's freezer and observance of June 22.

Per her request, we made a dozen sweet rice with lye water joong. She didn't want red bean paste this time, just a piece of red stick (joong sum) for the red colour in the middle. These will be eaten dipped in white sugar.

We made 50 packets with a mixture of jasmin and sweet rice. These were savory ones, filled with BBQ duck, lapcheung, salted fat pork, stir-fried onions, peanuts and dried baby shrimp.

To finish, we made 25 packets with just sweet rice, with the same fillings as the above.

I was boiling joong from 1 pm to 9:30 pm on a wet rainy Sat. Can you imagine the humidity in the house?! I am going to buy one of those "turkey deep fryers" before I make my own supply of about 150. This way, I can boil outside!

The hardest part in this activity is soaking, washing and boiling the bamboo leaves in water and vinegar. Then the cutting and chopping of the filling takes time. I enjoy this once a year time tho', especially since it fills my freezer for the year

The only thing I haven't been able to learn is, how to make the special "twisted" shapes my mom makes. My non-Chinese hubby says they taste better.

[Ben Hong]

Dejah, 85 packets, huh? Where did you say you lived?

[Yuki]

My grandma only makes around 60 each time. You can tell which joong is wrapped by me because they all ended up failing apart or have two salty egg yolks.

[Dejah]

Dejah, 85 packets, huh? Where did you say you lived?    

Ben, Lo wah kiw!

I live in Brandon, close to where you were stationed in the 70's...Shilo.

Wait until I make my 150 joong, then do a drive-by...

[Jason Perlow]

I prefer the cantonese variety - with every-but-the-kitchen-sink, including chestnuts

best homemade though - the supermarket ones always tend to skimp a bit

I notice dim sum places often have little pillow shaped ones on the menu - given how rib sticking these are, they often make an excellent budget lunch on their own!

cheerio

J

I order these almost every time we go out for Dim Sum. I agree, having many different kinds of stuff in the sticky rice really brings out an interesting flavor. Chinese sausage mixed with chicken and dried scallop along with shitakke is one of my favorites.

The Malaysians make an interesting version as well, which has a curry flavor.

[herbacidal]

I prefer the cantonese variety - with every-but-the-kitchen-sink, including chestnuts

best homemade though - the supermarket ones always tend to skimp a bit

I notice dim sum places often have little pillow shaped ones on the menu - given how rib sticking these are, they often make an excellent budget lunch on their own!

cheerio

J

I order these almost every time we go out for Dim Sum. I agree, having many different kinds of stuff in the sticky rice really brings out an interesting flavor. Chinese sausage mixed with chicken and dried scallop along with shitakke is one of my favorites.

The Malaysians make an interesting version as well, which has a curry flavor.

I suspect what you're talking about here is different and not zongzi.

At dimsum, it's noh mai gai.

They're shaped differently, without the points as in the photo.

They would be shaped sort of like squarish pillows, with rounded corners.

They also use only one kind of rice, where as zongzi should use regular rice and sticky rice.

A variation on that would be jen juh gai, which are smaller versions of noh mai gai.

[herbacidal]

Oddly enough enough, I found the recipe for Jiaxing zongzi as made by the famous Wufang Zongzi Shop on a Philadelphia Chinatown Website. It's pretty much the way my wife does it, although I wasn't aware of the sugar in the bath for the rice. I'll have to keep my eye on her this time.

I'm suprised you found it here. I had pretty much given up the site as useless.

[Dejah]

I order these almost every time we go out for Dim Sum. I agree, having many different kinds of stuff in the sticky rice really brings out an interesting flavor. Chinese sausage mixed with chicken and dried scallop along with shitakke is one of my favorites.

I suspect what you're talking about here is different and not zongzi.

At dimsum, it's noh mai gai.

They're shaped differently, without the points as in the photo.

They would be shaped sort of like squarish pillows, with rounded corners.

They also use only one kind of rice, where as zongzi should use regular rice and sticky rice.

A variation on that would be jen juh gai, which are smaller versions of noh mai gai.

25 of the ones I made with Mom on Sat were noh mai joong...made only with sticky rice, with the meats and wrapped in bamboo leaves.

I prefer the mixed rice ones...not quite as sticky.

The noh mai gai , I make it with lotus leaves and not bamboo leaves. In these, the rice is steamed first, then seasoned and savories added. This is all mixed together, then a large handful is placed in a lotus leave, wrapped then steamed again for 20 minutes.

Does this sound like what you had at dim sum? Jason?

Mom froze most of the ones we made. I usually have some for supper, then freeze the rest.

My kids used to take them to school for lunch. They also make great picnic fare...good even cold!

[Gary Soup]

I suspect what you're talking about here is different and not zongzi.

At dimsum, it's noh mai gai.

They're shaped differently, without the points as in the photo.

They would be shaped sort of like squarish pillows, with rounded corners.

They also use only one kind of rice, where as zongzi should use regular rice and sticky rice.

A variation on that would be jen juh gai, which are smaller versions of noh mai gai.

I think it's all a matter of semantics. I would consider anything with a filling stuffed into glutinous rice, wrapped in leaves, bound and boiled a zongzi. Different regions (and different families) have different "traditional" shapes and fillings but it's really "chef's choice".

[aprilmei]

Has anyone tried the joong in Taiwan? The rice is really different - it's still glutinous but very light and delicate. The first time I tried them I was shocked - I'm used to the Cantonese variety which is heavy (but also delish). The Taiwanese joong (at least the type I tried - there are probably lots of variations) had only fatty pork and peanuts.

As an alternative to steaming, you can also slice the joong and pan-fry slowly so it gets a nice crust.

[plunk]

Dejah, will you adopt me?

All my life I've grown up eating the dim sum lotus kind, the homemade sweet or salty bamboo leaf kind and I never learned to make them. Some of my cookbooks have recipes for them but since it would just be me eating them (and I don't want a colossal failure on my hands), I just buy mine from the chinese markets or have them in restaurants. Not as good as homemade though.

[Jason Perlow]

The noh mai gai , I make it with lotus leaves and not bamboo leaves. In these, the rice is steamed first, then seasoned and savories added. This is all mixed together, then a large handful is placed in a lotus leave, wrapped then steamed again for 20 minutes.

Does this sound like what you had at dim sum? Jason?

Yes, the pillow shaped ones in lotus leaf like you describe are the kind I get for Dim Sum. I didn't realize they were a different thing entirely.

[Sleepy_Dragon]

joong zie = bamboo leaf, no mai gai = lotus leaf. They lend different bouquets to the filling.

Pat

[Gary Soup]

joong zie = bamboo leaf, no mai gai = lotus leaf. They lend different bouquets to the filling.

Pat

In the North, bamboo leaves are never used for zongzi. It's always reed. Palm or banana leaves are also sometimes used elsewhere. They are all zongzi.