Guide Michelin comes to NY

[Bux]

What exactly does the Bib Gourmand symbol signify?

Good food at moderate prices. In Spain it's under 30 euros for a meal or 25 euros for tapas or snacks. Sorry I don't have my France Guide at hand.

[Louisa Chu]

There's no price limit for Bib Gourmand restaurants in France. They do average about 30 euros per person - food only - but there are little North African places for as little as 15 - for lunch - up to French regionals at about 50.

And Bib is the nickname for the Michelin Man in France - short for Bibendum - those kooky French.

[jogoode]

and yet home-grown new yorkers sell adny out every night, correct? and will likely do the same for per se as well?

Lord knows I love ADNY, but it has not resonated with the New York fine-dining population at large. Nor is it selling out every night.

I've heard rumors that it's in real trouble, doing only 10 covers a night. (Can anyone confirm that?)

[Fat Guy]

That rumor has been going around since 2000. I was in there recently and the room was well populated, and they were doing a private party in the fishbowl. But there were definitely a few empty tables.

[Fat Guy]

This should be interesting--if only to see the Zagat Family reaction.

In Europe, to gain even one star is quite an accomplishment. Zagat, on the other hand, rates hundreds of restaurants, from ADNY to Gray's Papaya. To compare Michelin and Zagat is really apples to oranges---they are doing different things, for very different audiences.

I think you miss my point.

Look for some very aggressive "competition" .

Except insofar as he sometimes disagrees with me and has a tendency to become incoherent, you all should listen carefully when Tony speaks. Don't underestimate the ability of the Zagat empire to apply pressure to the industry. The Zagats' power extends far beyond just getting sycophantic treatment at restaurants. They are heavily plugged into New York City government (Tim Zagat was Chair of NYC & Company, the city’s official tourism marketing agency, for three years and is still fully engaged with that organization), they control which restaurants get chosen for Restaurant Week, they control the terms of the Zagat survey, and they are not the slightest bit afraid to use their muscle and leverage. In France, in London, in Los Angeles, the Zagats are minor players, but New York is their turf. Here, they are the two people most feared by chefs and restaurateurs. Michelin's success in France depends on cooperation from the industry. Don't expect to see much of that here.

[Louisa Chu]

Michelin's success in France depends on cooperation from the industry.

Says who?

And if that's what it takes to get a good review in New York by Zagat then all the more reason to go by - and buy - the Michelin guide.

[Pan]

How about a culinary Celebrity Death Match between Tim Zagat and the Michelin Man?

I'll take the Michelin Man in a 2-round knockout.

[mongo_jones]

and yet home-grown new yorkers sell adny out every night, correct? and will likely do the same for per se as well?

Lord knows I love ADNY, but it has not resonated with the New York fine-dining population at large. Nor is it selling out every night.

i stand corrected. or rather, i sit. much closer to the monitor than is recommended, but in an ergonomic chair.

[mongo_jones]

How about a culinary Celebrity Death Match between Tim Zagat and the Michelin Man?

I'll take the Michelin Man in a 2-round knockout.

do the zagat's get to tap each other in? if so, my money's on nina--she looks like she'd execute a mean pile-driver. and let's face it, the michelin man's eaten a little too much butter.

[Pan]

Good one, Mongo.

[marcus]

Here, they are the two people most feared by chefs and restaurateurs. Michelin's success in France depends on cooperation from the industry. Don't expect to see much of that here.

This appears to me to be an insider oriented view, that often overrates the importance of internal politics, and in some sense misses the forest for the trees. In this case the key lever, the forest, is access to the public, and unless Zagat can keep Michelin out of the retail channel: bookstores, Amazon, etc., which they will not be able to do, all else will become moot. Michelin is a powerful brand, the Michelin guide is widely recognized, and their superior product will prevail. Not that people can't buy both as well.

The industry will find a way to cooperate with Michelin, because it will be to their benefit, restaurants are really going to crave those Michelin stars and bib gourmands, and Zagat will not be able to prevent it. Virtually every industry is already littered with companies that believed that they had a unique stranglehold on the market, only to discover that there is no good answer when your competitor has the superior product.

[Daniel]

Yeh i think zagats is exactly what the majority of people are looking for. I think its terrific for what it is and provides the average person with helpfull information. From price, to address, number, brief overview. Most people here dis zagats, rightfully so, because they have an abnormal knowledge and interest in restaurants. I dont think any published book will satisfy them because a book could never be current enough to keep up with new chefs, new restaurants, or issues. That is why these boards are so successfull and cool. But for the average person who wants to find a place by cuisine, price, and neighborhood, zagats is very helpfull.

[porkpa]

Fat Guy,

You say that there is no restaurant rating equivalent of the New York Times in Paris. If not equivalent, would not Patricia Wells reviews in the Herald Tribune be at least comparable to the New York Times reviews?

Porkpa

[Fat Guy]

I enjoy Patricia Wells's reviews and books, and have in the past assigned them much greater weight than Michelin because they explain themselves. I have never used a Michelin red or green guide to plan a trip in France, nor have I ever purchased a red guide (I own a couple of green ones -- the ones that aren't about food -- but have found them not to be particularly useful). The last three trips I took were all planned using a combination of American travel guidebooks, recommendations from friends, and Patricia Wells's Food Lover's Guides. Those volumes, particularly the France-wide one, are now so out-of-date I'd have no choice but to look to a wider variety of sources in planning a trip for '04, but if she released new editions they'd become my primary resources again.

I also like her reviews in the International Herald Tribune, although I'm not sure they're as good as they used to be. In any event, they just don't play the same role as the Times reviews. The IHT reviews run every other week, for a total of 26 per year. They are not all about restaurants -- Patricia Wells may devote the occasional "review" to a cheesemonger. They vary in length -- some are less than 400 words long. And of course the IHT is an international English-language paper. Patricia Wells is afforded quite a lot of respect in French culinary circles, but I'm not sure that many actual French restaurant consumers read her work in the IHT.

The Times undertakes a comprehensive reviewing effort that is supported by a larger news-reporting enterprise. Most any significant new restaurant can expect multiple instances of coverage in the Times: a pre-opening blurb in "Off the Menu," a preview in "Diner's Journal" shortly after opening, a full review of 800-1200 words plus an informational box, and subsequent inclusion in occasional trends stories and such. The Times has a massive budget for staff and meals -- I believe back in Ruth Reichl's time she was quoted as saying the meal budget alone was $175,000 and that has no doubt increased. Between the weekly reviews, the "Diner's Journal," and "$25 and Under" the Times runs 156 reviews of New York City restaurants every year (with some repetition), plus there are roundup articles like Ed Levine's surveys of pastrami, bagels, and such, each of which covers a dozen or more establishments, plus there are reviews and food coverage in the regional sections for New Jersey and Connecticut. The Times reviewer in New York visits restaurants almost every day of the week for lunch and dinner -- usually 10 meals out per week. That means multiple visits (3-5 or more) to all restaurants reviewed, plus the "Diner's Journal" visits plus a couple of hundred visits per year to restaurants that aren't being reviewed. The institutional momentum is massive, and nobody else is doing anything like it in scope and ambition. In the industry, all anybody cares about are the Times reviews and the Zagat ratings -- every other review source combined is considered insignificant next to either of those.

[marcus]

I find Patricia Wells to be perceptive, but she's a soft reviewer, not sufficiently critical, and you need to read between the lines, sometimes possible, sometimes not. There are a number of the more simple restaurants that are in her Paris book that get unstinting reviews, but are truly ordinary. These are restaurants that get an 11 or 12 from the Gault Millau, and that's what they deserve. Her actual negative comments regarding Hiramatsu earlier this year were so unusual for her, that they provoked significant comment.

I think that NYT triumphalism is misguided, and I would suggest that people take a look at Figaroscope, www.figaroscope.fr to see how the French do it. Look in the restaurant section and you will see that they review 5 restaurants a week, at least one new, and rate them via one to four hearts, or a broken heart for a negative review. Information is provided for each restaurant in a useful and organized fashion and you can click to read the specific article, each about 100-125 words knowledgeably and systematically focused on the food. Very much like the NYT, the previous month is available on the free site.

My understanding is that Figaroscope is the leader for Parisians who closely track the local restaurant scene, but there are additional credible sources, Gault Millau magazine, Pudlowski, the Le Monde reviewer and others which contribute to an active debate. In NY there is only the NY Times that has credibility and its not doing a very good job. $25 and under is useful, but the Diners Journal is totally imponderable and Sam Sifton is a disaster, I don't get the feeling that he knows anything about food. There has been lots of debate about the qualities of the main reviewer that don't need to be rehashed, but the fact that most of the 4 star restaurants haven't been re-reviewed for possibly 4 years is unacceptable, and to my view, a large black mark. Michelin was criticized for visiting some restaurants as infrequently as once every 18 months, although they stated that they visited the 3 star restaurants at least a dozen times a year. The vast majority of NYT restaurants get one major review and then never again.

Do Figaroscope and the Michelin guide compete? My view is that they do on the edges, but that they are largely complementery and there is lots of room for both. Keep in mind Bux's important point that the Michelin guide is primarily targetted at travelers, whereas the local newspaper is primarily targetted at residents. However, I know that many Parisians buy the Michelin guide as well, because they view it as the most rigorous, the most serious, and as providing the rating of record.

[oakapple]

I think that NYT triumphalism is misguided, and I would suggest that people take a look at Figaroscope, www.figaroscope.fr to see how the French do it. Look in the restaurant section and you will see that they review 5 restaurants a week, at least one new, and rate them via one to four hearts, or a broken heart for a negative review......[snip]

There has been lots of debate about the qualities of the main reviewer that don't need to be rehashed, but the fact that most of the 4 star restaurants haven't been re-reviewed for possibly 4 years is unacceptable, and to my view, a large black mark. Michelin was criticized for visiting some restaurants as infrequently as once every 18 months, although they stated that they visited the 3 star restaurants at least a dozen times a year. The vast majority of NYT restaurants get one major review and then never again.

If you ignore economics, Marcus's observations are entirely valid. It is indeed true that, at one review per week, the New York Times can't take even a passing swipe at maintaining accurate and up-to-date ratings of the full NYC restaurant scene.

But the resources the Times devotes to restaurant reviewing - already a vast sum, far exceeding what any other local publication spends - have to be in line with the economic value of the reviews. The Times is a publicly-traded company, which is in business to make a profit. Of course, we would like to see five restaurant reviews per week. No doubt the science buffs wish the science section were daily, rather than just Tuesdays. The rail fans would like to see a transit story every day. The line must be drawn somewhere.

As many have noted here, the Michelin inspectors may not be revisiting restaurants quite as often as we've been led to believe - even in France, their home territory. If Michelin is able to launch and sustain in New York the full-scale reviewing program of our dreams, I'll be both pleased and impressed. They'll need to sell an awful lot of Red Guides here to do that, in a market that's already saturated with coverage. Even Michelin needs to calibrate its expenditures to the revenues realistically achievable.

[Explorer]

have never used a Michelin red or green guide to plan a trip in France, nor have I ever purchased a red guide

I find it interesting that someone that hasn't purchased a red guide has so many strong views on this topic.

Nonetheless, I think the Michelin Guide for Manhattan will be a much needed addition to what's currently available. Finally, we will be able to see NY restaurants rated by the same international standard as other Michelin-rated restaurants; because the Michelin/Gault Millau are the standards, not NYT. At least, that would be the viewpoint for internationally experienced patrons.

I don't understand either the other argument that "New Yorkers don't need Michelin to tell them the names of top tier restaurants in NY. That's just common knowledge". If Parisians need it, why wouldn't New Yorkers, plus you're making a big assumption: that existing top tier restaurants will be the same ones picked by Michelin in 2006. I think you would be in for some surprises!

As to the other derogatory comments made by FatGuy (e.g. who are those French people, etc...), I really take offense and will take the French's defense. Don't we owe a lot to the French re: gastronomy? Michelin only has about 100 years of experience at this.

The market for the Red Guide is not just Americans, even less New Yorkers; it's the rest of the world who also wants to know by what standards NY restaurants are really measured.

And there is a precedent for European ratings coming to America; Relais et Chateaux.

[Fat Guy]

As to the other derogatory comments made by FatGuy (e.g. who are those French people, etc...), I really take offense and will take the French's defense. Don't we owe a lot to the French re: gastronomy? Michelin only has about 100 years of experience at this.

I'd ask you to be careful about attributing incendiary statements to me that I didn't make. What I said was:

And of course there will be the problem of rejectionism, because many Americans will likely say "Who the hell are these Michelin people to rate our restaurants?"

I'm not sure you've introduced any new points that haven't already been answered two or three times above, so I'll leave it at that.

[Bux]

Fat Guy,

You say that there is no restaurant rating equivalent of the New York Times in Paris. If not equivalent, would not Patricia Wells reviews in the Herald Tribune be at least comparable to the New York Times reviews?

Porkpa

No. Most of the local population doesn't even read English that well. By and large the IHT sells to tourists and visiting businessmen. It is disproportionately important, but that's not to say it's very important. Patricia Wells is well respected in France and at one time was food or restaurant critic for l'Express, but that's not her currently role and she's not currently speaking in Frenchmen or native Parisians in her IHT columns. By and large, you won't find a Parisian restaurant ignoring its Michelin stars, and I don't expect to find one bragging about a positive review in the IHT, the way a NY restaurant will refer to itself as a four star place because of the NY Times review. There's nothing comparable between the IHT and the NY Times, except in the eye of a New Yorker.

[Explorer]

I'd ask you to be careful about attributing incendiary statements to me that I didn't make. What I said was:

QUOTE 

And of course there will be the problem of rejectionism, because many Americans will likely say "Who the hell are these Michelin people to rate our restaurants?"

...but isn't the fact that you brought this up a little incendiary, to start with?

The opposite could be said about anybody who brings their expertise to a new area. One could accept and relish its value, or one could think of it as an intrusion.

[Pan]

I'd ask you to be careful about attributing incendiary statements to me that I didn't make. What I said was:

QUOTE 

And of course there will be the problem of rejectionism, because many Americans will likely say "Who the hell are these Michelin people to rate our restaurants?"

...but isn't the fact that you brought this up a little incendiary, to start with?

No, it's topical. We're having a discussion.

Edited May 17, 2004 by Pan (log)

[Fat Guy]

...but isn't the fact that you brought this up a little incendiary, to start with?

No. The thread was going along just fine. You simply attributed things to me that I didn't say, and I called you on it. You don't have to keep pursuing it. Just stick to responding to what I said instead of what you imagined and we can get back to having a debate about issues rather than about my character.

[Bux]

At the luxury haute cuisine end of dining, restaurateurs and chefs will be coveting Michelin two and three star ratings far more than they will care about their NY Times rating. Sure, they will want top honors in each, but they will want want the top rating from Michelin more. As others said earlier, the locals know their restaurants and don't really care about either rating all that much. As I said, the tourists are going to look at the Michelin Guide and those stars may be worth more than any other guide's or reviews in tourist trade at the top. How many visitors to NY are truly familiar with the NY Times' ratings for more than a few restaurants?

The interesting thing about Zagats, is that these guides sell well, but have very little credibility with the element that fills the top places. The question will not be about Michelin's credibility with diners who frequent the starred restaurants, but whether it will it sell to those who don't eat at the multi-starred places. It might sell to foreign tourists, but I doubt it will sell well to that segment of the American market. Will that matter to Michelin? Traditionally, the guide has been an advertisement for tires. At least that's how it started, but I suspect the NY edition is being seen as a profit/loss operation.

That Fat Guy hasn't used Michelin nor referred to it speaks less about Michelin than about Fat Guy's travel style. I would as soon be on the road in France without at least a recent copy, than a spare tire. The more I travel in France, the more I depend on the Michelin. I also depend on it for more than restaurants. I need those city maps with their one way street indications. I need them to find my hotel, my restaurant and to find my way in and out of town. All these, of course are reasons why the guides are best sellers in France and why they are unnecessary for a traveler in Manhattan.

Patricia Wells' Food Lover's Guides are always out of date except for the year following the occasional revised edition. They are still a treasure trove, but unreliable as a restaurant guide. I should also note that I haven't found Ms. Wells' reviews as reliable of late, but that's a subjective note. It's all well and good to stress the money and effort that go into the NY Times' food and restaurant review program, but for all that, it's never earned the respect in NY that Michelin has in Paris, nor has it earned anywhere the international respect that Michelin has for it's guides.

However, there's an enigma about the Michelin guides to other countries. In Spain, for instance, chefs seem obsessed about their Michelin rating, unless that's only in the north where the French influence is most strongly felt, but I don't sense the guides have much power over locals' choice of where to eat. Then again in France, as in NY, the general public doesn't eat at the multi-starred restaurants very often, if at all. Fat Guy's comment about Michelin doing best in France where it's all French food is right on target however. That's both the problem in has in other countries and the problem is starting to face in Paris. It's far more difficult to rank restaurants on their system when they all don't follow the same general mold. If there's a city where the restaurants don't follow a mold, it's NY with it's diversity of ethnic restaurants and styles of restaurants.

Whatever you make of my comments, my point is that this is a gamble for Michelin, but there are good reasons why they've got a chance. They do fill a void, if only in some markets. Can they sell the numbers of copies they need to make it worth their while is a question that remains to be answered. Can they sell to visitors looking for restaurant recommendations at the unstarred levels, but in proximity to their hotel for instance?

[Pan]

Can they sell to visitors looking for restaurant recommendations at the unstarred levels, but in proximity to their hotel for instance?

If so, they'd better locate a bunch of them in Midtown, n'est-ce pas?

[Bux]

What I said was:

And of course there will be the problem of rejectionism, because many Americans will likely say "Who the hell are these Michelin people to rate our restaurants?"

This is undoubtedly true and reasonably stated. I don't think Michelin expects to put a red guide in every household in America. Georges Duboeuf doesn't expect to put a bottle of beaujolais on every dinner table either, but he sells enough wine and those who buy it are unlikely to say "Who the hell are these Michelin people to rate our restaurants?" A small segment of a large market can be a market in itself.

Where Explorer makes a point is that in some circles, the opposite is true. The French cachet is a plus when it comes to food and wine. There will be plenty of people who will trust a French recommendation for a restaurant over an American one, even in NY.

Relais et Chateaux however is not a rating, per se, but an association of inns and restaurants. Membership is selective, but it is also by fee. Inclusion in the group is not really a rating as much as it is a guarantee that the member holds to certain standards. It started in France, but is an international organization with member restaurants and inns on just about every continent save Antarctica. Not every restaurant is a Relais Gourmand either. Some are just luxury places in which to eat decent food.