the most french-like bistrots in manhattan?

[Bux]

baruch, I didn't mean to imply that you had a weird or unusual definition of salade frisée just that you hold to an exact standard in a changing world. 11 Madison Park is too "a lot of things" to qualify as a "bistrot." I mentioned it as exemplifying the abstract of a brasserie, or would if it had once been owned by a brewery in Alsace. Good brasseries always smack more of central European middle class businessmen's democracy than of French society and culture as well as whatever else I feel I need in a brasserie. Artisanal bills itself as a bistro, but it looks like a brasserie.

Does anyone ever think of French food as "ethnic food?" Every now and then I fall into a French restaurant somewhere that seems caught in the 50s or 60s and that serves the last food that could truly be called "French food."

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bux-I read your explanations to Fat Guys questions (which were basically the same as mine) and I'm still confused. The reason that Balthazar and Pastis are stage sets, is because La Coupole and Le Dome are like stage sets too. Have you been to either of those places lately? If they blindfolded you and put you in Le Dome and told you it was a brand new McNally brasserie, you wouldn't know the difference. I was at Le Coupole last year and it was the biggest secene one could ever imagine. Even a bigger scene, and more theatrical than either of McNally's restaurants. And when you say this

"Indeed. Exact replicas, while of course real brasseries are originals."

Original whats? Original spaces? McNally went to France and brought back all original brasserie fixtures so why aren't those two places "real" brasseries. They serve all the same foods save for the addition of a thing like a hamburger for American tastes. And to be honest about it, since virtually all brasseries have been consolidated  under the Group Flo banner the food has gotten pretty crappy there. I wouldn't be surprised that in a side by side test, Balthazar's food isn't better.

When they first opened Balthazar I was inclined not to like it.

A copycat brasserie in NYC, bound to be a gimmick and in addition, those places usually serve decent food for a minute, become trendy and then the quality goes into the crapper. But none of that happened because the place went beyond being a copycat into actually being the real thing. And if you transported it to Paris it would be just as busy being frequented by a Parisian crowd as a hip NY crowd.

Baruch-Gopnik's chapters on the Blazar (where I must have eaten a dozen times) and brasseries in general are about their being consolidated under one owner, Group Flo. And with all the changes he describes that they go through, nowhere do I recall him saying that Group Flo dismantles the decor of any of the places. It's just the food and the waitstaff they screw up. In fact they buy the places in order to get their hands on the original decor, and the original spaces because they believe (and rightly so) that people want to eat in a place that feels like "old" Paris. And the example Gopnik uses I believe, is that when Bucher (Flo) buys the Balzar, he can serve X meals a day to bus tours who will be more than happy to have the lunch on their tour served to them at an "authentic? breasserie.

Quatorze although it looks and feels like a bistro, actually serves the food served in a brasserie. As for your comments about Balthazar/Pastis, I can understand that criticism if they tried to be something they aren't. But I think they actually have reached the point they were reaching for. But if you don't think an authentic brasserie can exists in NYC and can only be in Paris, then I can understand the criticism.

Wilfrid-I have never found L'Acajou to be as good as its reputation. But I'm not surprised to hear they didn't let you in. I understand they have read your posts on this board.

[baruch]

no offense taken at all Bux, only meant that dishes a la a salade "frisee aux lardons" do have a certain "je ne sais quai", & i would like to have the opportunity of trying an original version somewhere within  the borders of manhattan instead of travelling to Paris or Lyon. abstract is fine, but a little too pristine for me, a la Fleur de Sel's decor. & not splitting hairs, but vis-a-vis the brasserie (alsatian) arguement vs the bistrot/bistro; i'm categorizing my question as it relates to a bistro in comparing a nyc "bistro" to a parisian bistro, not the brasserie, which i recognize is probably the more prevalent of the 2 here (NYC).

& i would agree with steve p. in that brasseries appear to be more of a staged setting whether nyc or paris - thats both their + & -. on the other hand, it does seem that balthazar has settled in as a pretty good alternative, & that pastis has now become the "pretty boy". I did not mean to infer that Flo Grp dismantles physically, but mentally is another viewpoint & i belive Gopnick captures that far better than I, & quite frankly, i don't go to Paris or here, to dine with bus tours. if that is Flo's intention, then can scratch all within his empire. a pet peeve anyway, is any chain of restaurants! re: Quatorze - seems to me to have MORE bistro-like offerings than others & that was my only point. if u agree re: both look & feel, which u state, then the menu is close enough. would love to hear further comments as to the above as well attempting to burrow deeper as to what constitutes a bistro in Manhattan or is there no such thing. maybe balthazar does win by default. if that is the general opinion, then i am sorry i live so far uptown :))))))

[Bux]

I don't think a brasserie cuts it as a bistro just on scale alone and Balthazar emulated a brasserie in its layout and size. Balzar in Paris is a pretty small brasserie and almost qualifies as a bistro, or would if it had a resident owner chef. Ideally, in my mind, a Parisian bistro has an owner in the kitchen and his wife at the cash register in front.

[baruch]

no question about that, but assuming it is impossible to arrive at a reasonable answer to manhattan's concept, even I realize one has to compromise as to definitions & not attempt to split too many hairs; therefore, even though i would like a place similar to balzar & with the proviso that it would have  the owner-chef in the kitchen & mom out front, it seems too idealized. therefore, by deduction or reduction, balthazar may be as close as one can get to recreating that parsian "feel" whether it is from a bistro or brasserie - so be it. maybe the alternative is L'Absinthe, although price-wise, hard to just drop in & dine every nite. but then again, that depends on one's economic situation which is an area that should remain outside this string.

[Wilfrid]

Wilfrid-I have never found L'Acajou to be as good as its reputation. But I'm not surprised to hear they didn't let you in. I understand they have read your posts on this board.

Guffaw.  In fact, they let me in but gave a me a table in the bar, even though tables in the restaurant area were free.  A little above their station, I felt.

And, of course, they served my food with gravy.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bux-Brasseries are places that serve Alsatian food. Bistros serve food from other reaches of France. And while they both might share a few dishes like grilled meats or a stew of beef/ lamb, they are completely different experiences both as to dining and decor. Brasseries are usually large places with high ceilings and they are loud, Bistros small, intimate and quiet. And while brasseries are busy serving large platters of raw shellfish, steaming platters of choucroute and other non-cooking intensive items like frissee salad and steak tartar, bistro cuisine usually revolves around roasted foods and simple "plats" that have been simmering in large pots all day. In fact, if I recall my food history, the word bistrot came about because that type of restaurant was frequented by Russian soldiers who needed to eat in a hurry. And since the food was simmering on the stove already, or a leg of lamb was already roasted and only had to be sliced, the Russian soldiers could yell "bistrot, bistrot" (quickly, quickly) and have a fully cooked meal in front of them in a matter of minutes.

Baruch-The thing about getting the perfect brasserie is that so much of a brasserie depends on the local social scene that you obviously can't replicate the style and rhythm of a Parisian brasserie in NYC. When you go into La Coupole, the look and feel of it is as important as the food. Maybe even more important. And no matter how hard Keith McNally tries, he can never replicate the exact look and feel. I mean the people here look like New Yorkers and the tourists have their NY face on! As for Gopnik, it is only dismantled mentally for those who insist that time stand still. To me, it doesn't matter who the owner is or who the servers are as long as the food is good and I have the appropriate brassserie experience. Which I find is hard to do at this point because they have dumbed down the food at the Flo Group.

[Bux]

Plotnicki-Your definitions are not so much different from mine than they are more detailed, although I might argue that large seafood platters are not particularly Alsatian. That "bistrot" comes from the Russian for quick seems to be coming under question and I recall reading other suggested derivations recently. In any even the tale I like says the soldiers were not caling for food, but a quick drink across the zinc covered bar and the zinc bar was almost, by definition, a requirement for a bistrot.

And, of course, they served my food with gravy.

And you wanted it served with aplomb?

[jaybee]

Legend has it that the name "bistrot" came about in the Napoleanic era as a result of the poor hygiene and low quality of food served in the inexpensive tiny restaurants that were housed in the very small buildings that had "bis" in the address, such as 242 bis Rue De Grenelle.  Diners at these establishments rapidly developed intestinal problems and had to hurry to "la toilette" several times in the course of the meal--  hence the appelation "bistrots".  (oh, I'll walk a mile for a pun).

[Bux]

Plotnicki: Bux-I read your explanations to Fat Guys questions (which were basically the same as mine) and I'm still confused. The reason that Balthazar and Pastis are stage sets, is because La Coupole and Le Dome are like stage sets too. Have you been to either of those places lately?

...

And when you say this

"Indeed. Exact replicas, while of course real brasseries are originals."

Original whats? Original spaces? McNally went to France and brought back all original brasserie fixtures so why aren't those two places "real" brasseries.

In more recent times, I've had oysters on the terasse at le Dome and passed by la Coupole which seemed to have been modernized since I first ate there. Be that as it may, they were both designed at some time in the style of that time and along the way contemporary touches have been added. Balthazar was designed not to look as it was of its time, but of some previous time and another place. Which to me implies fakery--the opposite of real. It appears to be a copy rather than an original concept. Perhaps it's my post beaux Arts architectural training that has made me so critical of archtitecture that tries to copy earlier styles. It's not just the style, but the patina that is painted in place that seems fake to my eyes. Bucher is not just buying up old brasseries in Paris, he built a new one next to the new Opera. For that he hired Pritzker Architecture Prize Laureate Christian de Portzamparc and his wife, Elizabeth to design the place. It's a stage set in the way any restaurant is a stage set, but its not a stage designer's brasserie. It doesn't have to look like a brasserie, it is one. It's of its time and place. You may not agree on the importance or even desirability of what I see as a more honest esthetic, but surely the concept is not confusing? When I say stage set, I didn't mean it in the sense that all the world's a stage, but as in theater design.

Don't get me wrong. I like the places and love the food. I'd never think of letting my purist architectural principles get in the way of my enjoyment. I find Balthazar a particularly handy and useful place to eat. I really enjoy brunch there, even if that's not exactly a tradtional French meal. Brunch never reminds me of a brasserie and Balthazar often reminds me more of a place like PJ Clarke than la Coupole anyway. By the way, are you quite sure all of the fixtures, mirrors and bar are from France, let alone from a brasserie or designed for a brasserie in France?

[Ruby]

Balthazar was designed not to look as it was of its time, but of some previous time and another place. Which to me implies fakery--the opposite of real. It appears to be a copy rather than an original concept.

By the way, are you quite sure all of the fixtures, mirrors and bar are from France, let alone from a brasserie or designed for a brasserie in France?

Fakery? Well, then this could also be said about all the taverns cropping up in New York that are made to look like pubs in England and Ireland with their long highly-polished mahogany bars. People love atmosphere and that's one of the reasons, IMO, we go to restaurants, cafes, brasseries (whatever) to bask in it. I recently went to Cafe Sabarsky because I'd read they tried to recreate a Viennese cafe around the turn of the century. Restaurants are theater and always will be.

I read somewhere that the woodwork and bar at Balthazar was brought in from Wisconsin. The p.r. people at Balthazar made no bones about this fact because the restaurant is always getting compliments on the bar and people assume it was imported from France.

[Fat Guy]

Were I to support Bux in his argument -- which I kind of do -- I'd say there's a difference between fakery and nostalgia. Those who have built Irish pubs in New York are overwhelmingly Irish, and for a long time many of them catered to a largely Irish clientele. I think it's understandable that they want to recreate a slice of home. It's a bit stranger when a guy named McNally tries to recreate a Paris brasserie right down to the nicotine stains. Sorry to obsess on the nicotine stains, folks, but despite their relative insignificance in the grand scheme of the restaurant they speak loudly as a symbol. I mean, if I moved to Timbuktu and opened a Jewish Deli, that wouldn't be totally nuts. But if I, a Jew from New York, moved to Timbuktu and opened an Irish bar, that would just be strange.

[Wilfrid]

Does anyone think that New York Irish pubs - and I don't deny that many of them are run and staffed by the Irish - are much like pubs in Ireland?  Some try hard - Molly's Shebeen at 22nd and 3rd, for example - but in general they're nothing much like the bars I remember, especially outside Dublin.

One random particular:  bars in Ireland tend to be well lit.

Spot quiz:  There used to be a horrible dive at 23rd and 3rd called Glocca Morra.  Bejasus, not a real Irish name at all - anyone know the derivation (if not I'll tell you)?

[Bux]

Fakery? Well, then this could also be said about all the taverns cropping up in New York that are made to look like pubs in England and Ireland with their long highly-polished mahogany bars. People love atmosphere and that's one of the reasons, IMO, we go to restaurants, cafes, brasseries (whatever) to bask in it. I recently went to Cafe Sabarsky because I'd read they tried to recreate a Viennese cafe around the turn of the century. Restaurants are theater and always will be.

Ruby, indeed it could and I would be the one to call all those places, fakes, but I never meant to imply that people didn't love it. I've never believed that either PT Barnum or HL Menken didn't have their finger on the public pulse. By the way Cafe Sabarsky didn't try to recreate a Viennese cafe around the turn of the century, they did it last year.  

I'd say there's a difference between fakery and nostalgia.

I've wondered if people can be "nostalgic" for places they nevere knew. I'd think not by definition.

if I, a Jew from New York, moved to Timbuktu and opened an Irish bar, that would just be strange.

It would be a "stage set," but maybe not strange by community standards.

[Ruby]

F. I recently went to Cafe Sabarsky because I'd read they tried to recreate a Viennese cafe around the turn of the century. Restaurants are theater and always will be.

Ruby, indeed it could and I would be the one to call all those places, fakes, but I never meant to imply that people didn't love it. I've never believed that either PT Barnum or HL Menken didn't have their finger on the public pulse. By the way Cafe Sabarsky didn't try to recreate a Viennese cafe around the turn of the century, they did it last year.  

I'd say there's a difference between fakery and nostalgia.

I've wondered if people can be "nostalgic" for places they nevere knew. I'd think not by definition.

Bux, that's what I get when I try to write a post before my second cuppa coffee. What I meant to say was "FROM around the turn of the century." I know Cafe Sabarsky opened last year when the Neue Galerie was opened to the public by Ronald Lauder and the late Serge Sabarsky.

Yes, I believe one can definitely be 'nostalgic' for places they never knew. Images from movies, books and theater add to nostalgia and we can be anyone/anywhere we want with a little imagination. So many people have been to France or have seen so many movies about it, that it's very natural to take immediately to a cafe that evokes La Belle Epoque or another period.

[Peter B Wolf]

Here is a little unknown input about "Bistro(t)".

The word is of Russian origin, meaning "quick" or "quickly", here is the correct spelling: " áûñòðî ".

It became a popular word in France at the time many Russian Emmigrees lived in Paris, but still "hunted" by the Zcar. As these people often met in Restaurants, usually just some type of "Cafe" as to not evoke notice otherwise, but when chased by these zcaristic lackeys, they simply yelled the word "áûñòðî" / "bistro" in order to run and take cover, or get lost quickly. The word later became an attachment to these Cafes to be known as Bistro(t)s.

[jaybee]

Here is a little unknown input about "Bistro(t)".

The word is of Russian origin, meaning "quick" or "quickly", here is the correct spelling: " áûñòî ".

It became a popular word in France at the time many Russian Emmigrees lived in Paris, but still "hunted" by the Zcar. As these people often met in Restaurants, usually just some type of "Cafe" as to not evoke notice otherwise, but when chased by these zcaristic lackeys, they simply yelled the word "áûñòî" / "bistro" in order to run and take cover, or get lost quickly. The word later became an attachment to these Cafes to be known as Bistro(t)s.

Wow, Peter! And I thought I was being creative with my "Bis-trots" story!  So I wasn't too far off from reality after all. Too bad Trotsky didn't trot fast in Mexico.  He might have lived to compete with Stalin.

[Ruby]

Earlier when I mentioned taverns and pubs, I meant new places that try to look like: Landmark Tavern on 10th Avenue, Old Town Bar on E. 18th Street and the newly refurbished Tonic on W. 18th St. There's a newish place on Grand Street (can't recall the name) right in the heart of Little Italy that looks just like a movie set from a grand old pub.

IMO, glitz is what people want in addition to good food and an interesting, lively crowd. When Keith McNally opened Balthazar and Pastis, he knew this as well and it doesn't matter to me if he's not French. Last time I was in England, there were a small chain of French bistros cropping up with a name something like Cafe Rouge. When I complimented the manager on the decor, he said the owner was English. He pulled it off so what the hay  

[Bux]

Peter, that the most unusual spelling of tsar or czar I've seen. It's also the first time I've heard that version of how the bistrot got its name. Patricia Wells in her Bistro Cooking cookbook, states that the most commonly held explanation is from the cries of Russian soldiers aftern they occupied Paris in 1815. She goes on to note the word didn't enter the language until 1884. Many commonly held beliefs or truths, have no basis in fact, I guess. She offers a few other suggestions.

Bistrouille or bistouilleare used in parts of France to refer to a mix of coffee and eau-de-vie or to cheap eau-de-vie. Bistrouillermeans to make a fake and cheap wine substitute out of water and alcohol with flavoring and coloring. This would not speak well for the reputation of the beverages available at a typical bistro.

Two web sites, one for Bistrot Lepic in DC and the other for le Bistro du Capucin in the Savoie region of France agree that bistro entered the French language in 1884 and bistrot in 1892. So much for the popular contention that the shorter form is a newer hipper term possibly influenced by American use. They also agree that the Cossack invasion occurred in 1814 and that the Russian spelling of "quick" (in the Roman alphabet   ) is "bystro." Peter, I'm afraid my system picks up your spelling rather strangely.

[baruch]

funny, i thought this string was about the "most french-like bistrots in manhattan", not irish pubs, or whether 'bistro' or bistrots' is the correct term, or the derivation thereof. refer back to the origiinal list to either attempt to narrow or widen list & thx to all those participating regarding the original question.

[Ruby]

funny, i thought this string was about the "most french-like bistrots in manhattan", not irish pubs, or whether 'bistro' or bistrots' is the correct term, or the derivation thereof. refer back to the origiinal list to either attempt to narrow or widen list & thx to all those participating regarding the original question.

The Irish pubs analogy was made by me to make a point that it's not just the French NY bistros that are creating a stage set.

Incidentally, so many of my other posts have taken on so many different twists from my original subject. It's really very interesting to me to see how a thread evolves from its inception. For example, I started a post about "what foods do you eat when you're feeling blue or down in the dumps." To my surprise, this turned into something entirely different. Ditto for a recent post about where to find a restaurant that serves Cioppino.

Actually, Baruch, your original post started a really good, stimulating and long thread. Keep 'em coming!  

[cabrales]

Are there any bistros where the dining room team is as comfortable (or more) speaking French?

[Wilfrid]

Cabrales - Do you mean as comfortable as one assumes they would be in France?  Often not.  My French is lousy, but I have sometimes attempted to communicate in French with a New York waiter who has greeted me with "Bonjour, Monsieur" only to find that's the limit of their vocabulary.

[cabrales]

Cabrales - Do you mean as comfortable as one assumes they would be in France?  Often not.  

Wilfrid -- Yes. Or, alternatively, people as comfortable speaking French as they would English.

[ActorDan]

As for reproducing that ineffable Parisian bistrot effect ici, c'est impossible. There is absolutely nothing in NYC like the following quartet of our Paris favorites:

Le Trumilou, quai de l'Hôtel de Ville.

Cafe du Commerce in the 5e

Le Rouge Vif in the 7e

Not to mention La Coupole in Montparnasse where the ambience outshines the cuisine and, after a certain hour, the air converts to nicotine.

What gives one pleasure in these places cannot be easily exported.