Restaurant Wine List Prices

[russ parsons]

i should have known you'd be way ahead of me. that must be an incredible treat, matching michel's food to wine. i remember working with him at citrus years ago for a special lunch for henri jayer, when he fine-tuned the sauce for the entree to the exact wines that were being served. what an amazing man.

[Brad Ballinger]

i personally don't appreciate the "terms of shortsightedness" comment, nor the "violent disagreement"

It was violent AGREEment (with some of my fat-finger typos). But whatever.

Jgould -- I think you were the one who really escalated this and started taking issue with contrary points to your own (go back and re-read your "It's funny" post -- "DUH" should be your first clue). It's too late to take the "I'm above it all" approach now. No one is disagreeing with you. Rather, just trying to provide different thinking. There is not a one-size-fits-all approach when it comes to restaurant wine pricing (warning, another one of my "obvious" observations).

Finally, you ridicule me for pointing out the obvious. If it's all so obvious, why has your head not yet made a dent in the wall?

[bugsy]

ok, i'm a wholesaler so take your best shots,but let me note a few things before you do.in MD and many other states,we are required to sell wines at the same

price regardless of order size and ALL retailers and restaurants pay the same.

in DC we are allowed to sell to anyone..EVEN CONSUMERS BTW.. at any price we

choose. we, indeed, do offer quantity discounts for larger drops...we also offer

restaurants a LOWER price on some wines that are being poured by the glass as

a reflection of the value of the PR. do we earn our money??? i think so...we ship in containers that are temperature controlled, we store in air-conditioned warehouses, we ship in air-conditioned trucks, we store wine for restaurants

when they ask. we sample wines to retailers and press and conduct tastings,etc.

it's for the most part fun, but you're not in it for the money.......that's sure.

[jgould]

i personally don't appreciate the "terms of shortsightedness" comment, nor the "violent disagreement"

No one is disagreeing with you. Rather, just trying to provide different thinking. There is not a one-size-fits-all approach when it comes to restaurant wine pricing (another one of my "obvious" observations).

as i said, its no longer worth responding to "he said, she said" & "tit for tat". not only does it become a waste of time, but it doesn't add to the topic at hand. if u insist on having the last word,

be my guest, s'il vous plaît

Edited February 13, 2004 by jgould (log)

[jgould]

in today's NYT's "The City" section, pg 10, "good eating" column:

as per this thread, interesting trend (?). restaurants offering wine discounts on certain nites, notably mondays, typically a slow restaurent nite. add "@SQC" on UWS to the list, offers all wine @ 1/2 price with dinner on mondays.

are restaurants finally beginning to realize that prices should be more reasonable & this shift is just beginning, or simply a 1 slow-nite deal???

but, this is a good thing.

Edited February 16, 2004 by jgould (log)

[jddoyle]

The wine list from what is supposed to be the "best" in St. Louis:

Tony's Wine List

[melkor]

The wine list from what is supposed to be the "best" in St. Louis:

Tony's Wine List

Luce, Frescobaldi, Mondavi 1998 $145.00 :laugh:

[phaelon56]

I'm no a consumer of alcohol but how about the San Pellgrino water at Danube in NYC? By the case it breaks down to about $1.25 to $1.50 per bottle in discount retail stores for the large bottle and I'll guess that restaurants who buy in voume pay about $1.00 per bottle. We had two bottle with my special birthday dinner two years and were a bit startleed to see it come in at $14 per bottle. Yes.... the water we had for dinner totaled $28 not including tax and tip. No sommelier, no stewards, no risk in inventory with unpredictable turnover or specialized sotrage requirements..... just an insane markup. In a restaurant of that level I would expect the water to be $8 to $10 but they're really pushing way over the limit at $14.

[chaud-froid]

Corton-Charlemagne, Domaine Jean-François Coche-Dury, 2000

Fancy restaurant in Washington, DC: $400

Fancy restaurant in New York City: $1300

Why would anyone want to drink Coche-Dury Corton-Charlemagne only four years after the vintage???

[jgould]

I'm no a consumer of alcohol but how about the San Pellgrino water at Danube in NYC? By the case it breaks down to about $1.25 to $1.50 per bottle in discount retail stores for the large bottle and I'll guess that restaurants who buy in voume pay about $1.00 per bottle. We had two bottle with my special birthday dinner two years and were a bit startleed to see it come in at $14 per bottle. Yes.... the water we had for dinner totaled $28 not including tax and tip. No sommelier, no stewards, no risk in inventory with unpredictable turnover or specialized sotrage requirements..... just an insane markup. In a restaurant of that level I would expect the water to be $8 to $10 but they're really pushing way over the limit at $14.

now i'm waiting for all those here who defend & justify hi priced wines!!!

[Mark Sommelier]

Corton-Charlemagne, Domaine Jean-François Coche-Dury, 2000

Fancy restaurant in Washington, DC: $400

Fancy restaurant in New York City: $1300

Why would anyone want to drink Coche-Dury Corton-Charlemagne only four years after the vintage???

Some people don't like old chardonnay.

[robyn]

I'm no a consumer of alcohol but how about the San Pellgrino water at Danube in NYC? By the case it breaks down to about $1.25 to $1.50 per bottle in discount retail stores for the large bottle and I'll guess that restaurants who buy in voume pay about $1.00 per bottle. We had two bottle with my special birthday dinner two years and were a bit startleed to see it come in at $14 per bottle. Yes.... the water we had for dinner totaled $28 not including tax and tip. No sommelier, no stewards, no risk in inventory with unpredictable turnover or specialized sotrage requirements..... just an insane markup. In a restaurant of that level I would expect the water to be $8 to $10 but they're really pushing way over the limit at $14.

We learned about the great water rip-off the hard way - at a family dinner at an upscale restaurant in south Florida. It had been a long hot day - and a lot of us had been outside doing various things (including playing tennis). The water bill for a party of 8 was over $150. So it's tap water for me now - except if I'm at the Georgia Pig in south Georgia (where there's so much sulfur in the tap water they don't even make iced tea).

By the way - the valet at this restaurant also parked our car in a handicap space. The car got a ticket - which we didn't learn about until we received a letter in the mail that a warrant had been issued for my arrest due to non-failure to pay the ticket. The whole evening makes me mad whenever I think about it. Robyn

[jgould]

manhattan: veuve cliquot:

retail ~ $32 > houston's in the citicorp ctr $55 > shun lee west $98!!

[Mark Sommelier]

manhattan: veuve cliquot:

retail ~ $32 > houston's in the citicorp ctr $55 > shun lee west $98!!

The "front line" price of Clicquot Yellow Label is $32 at wholesale. If you pour it by the glass or buy sufficient number of cases it goes down to $27. That's the best deal.

[jgould]

manhattan: veuve cliquot:

retail ~ $32 > houston's in the citicorp ctr $55 vs shun lee west $98!!

The "front line" price of Clicquot Yellow Label is $32 at wholesale. If you pour it by the glass or buy sufficient number of cases it goes down to $27. That's the best deal.

i was just pointing out, the cost to the consumer at a retail outlet in manhattan, then the difference bet 2 restaurants pricing. i "assume" the cost to a restaurant is somewhat below the retail outlet's price, i.e., the wholesale price to the restaurant from the distributor??? & therefore the base level for the restaurant's mark-up.

the restaurant price/glass seems to vary bet $14-16.

[Mark Sommelier]

manhattan: veuve cliquot:

retail ~ $32 > houston's in the citicorp ctr $55 vs shun lee west $98!!

The "front line" price of Clicquot Yellow Label is $32 at wholesale. If you pour it by the glass or buy sufficient number of cases it goes down to $27. That's the best deal.

i was just pointing out, the cost to the consumer at a retail outlet in manhattan, then the difference bet 2 restaurants pricing. i "assume" the cost to a restaurant is somewhat below the retail outlet's price, i.e., the wholesale price to the restaurant from the distributor??? & therefore the base level for the restaurant's mark-up.

the restaurant price/glass seems to vary bet $14-16.

Mr. jgould, I told you once before that retailers pay lower prices than restaurants. Any retailer selling it for $32 is either giving it away for cost or making very little. For a restaurateur, at $14 a glass with 4oz. glasses you can make $84 a bottle, a tidy profit.

[Craig Camp]

Retailers don't ALWAYS pay lower prices than restaurants. Certainly giant retailers and chains get maximum discounts on major brands because of quantity purchasing, but small independent wine shops and restaurants pay the same price.

It is also worth noting that very high profile restaurants (like Citronelle Mark) get special discounts because the distributors are dying to have their wines sold there for several reasons:

1. Mark you and people like you sell a LOT of wine for the number of customers you serve. A high profile restaurant sells more of certain categories of wine than all but the largest wine shops. I am sure we could find a quite a few wines that you sell more of than anyone else does in your market.

2. The distributors suppliers beat the crap out of them to be sure their wines are sold in the best restaurants so they make price concessions just to make placements. Every month the distributor has to send the supplier a depletion report showing where their wines are sold and you can bet they are always looking for your name. Both the producers and distributors consider placements in high-profile restaurants to have a "billboard" effect that helps promote their brands.

3. Especially in California many wine producers consider the retail business somehow dirty as compared to the elegance of a fine dining restaurant. Let's face it - do winery owners enjoy their time more visiting MacArthurs or Citronelle. This anti-retail prejudice has led many wine producers demand that distributors sell over 50% of their wines to restaurants. This demand forces distributors to offer good prices to restaurants to be able to accomplish this requirement.

[jgould]

thx craig!

& mr. mark , thx for the price info on veuve. interesting & surprising the "cost" to the retailer is as high as u indicate!!

usually receive a better pour than 4oz/glass in nyc

Edited February 18, 2004 by jgould (log)

[jgould]

manhattan: veuve cliquot:

retail ~ $32 > houston's in the citicorp ctr $55 vs shun lee west $98!!

The "front line" price of Clicquot Yellow Label is $32 at wholesale. If you pour it by the glass or buy sufficient number of cases it goes down to $27. That's the best deal.

Mr. jgould, I told you once before that retailers pay lower prices than restaurants. Any retailer selling it for $32 is either giving it away...

how about veuve @ a nyc retailer for $29.99? are THEY really giving it away???

[Mark Sommelier]

manhattan: veuve cliquot:

retail ~ $32 > houston's in the citicorp ctr $55 vs shun lee west $98!!

The "front line" price of Clicquot Yellow Label is $32 at wholesale. If you pour it by the glass or buy sufficient number of cases it goes down to $27. That's the best deal.

Mr. jgould, I told you once before that retailers pay lower prices than restaurants. Any retailer selling it for $32 is either giving it away...

how about veuve @ a nyc retailer for $29.99? are THEY really giving it away???

No. The front line price is $32. The deal price is $27. That's as low as they'll go.

[Cynthia G]

The "nice" restaurant at Mesa Verde National Park (the name of which escapes me at this moment). Spring 2002.

1997 Parducci Pinot Noir: $45/bottle

Retail here at the time was around $9

It's pretty isolated, so if you don't remember to bring wine with you..... but luckily, we did!

[slacker]

Is not Clicquot pricing largely academic?

[jgould]

how many here think wine prices in restaurants are marked up too high relative to the restaurant's cost*?

& if so, by how much (in general)? recognize the obvious, in that a 4 star's mark-up, some would say, is justified - vs. - a NYC two-star restaurant's mark-up.

i'll start: except for those, a la Landmarc, that have greatly reduced their wine prices to reasonable, the others approach the ridiculous to the "i can't believe how high these prices are"

what's fair? i do believe there is no set rule, but common sense should dictate - vs - a way-out-of-line profit margin, regardless of the quality of the restaurant.

yes, a 4 star that carries a large inventory has leeway. the 2 star, with much less inventory of average wines, somehow believes they are entitled to rip their customer's lungs out.

i know this is probably too extreme for most, but i'm sick of these ridiculous mark-ups on mediocre & easy to purchase wines. unless i'm dining out in a restaurant, regardless of its quality, that has reasonable prices; i have taken to simply not ordering wine. does the restaurant get the hint? i doubt it. but, quite frankly the roast chicken that cries out for a delicious red burgundy, doesn't taste so terrible with ice tea, & i now purchase excellent wines at sherry-lehmann to drink with dinner at home.

*by cost, i am assuming a wholesale price(?)

& btw, that also includes not paying $5 for a Bud, $8 for a Jack Daniels straight up, etc...in restaurants anymore. these mark-ups are even more egregious than the wine mark-ups. for example, if I can buy a case of Bud at an easily reached beer warehouse for roughly 60cents/can - vs - $5 in most restaurants = "only" an 8x mark-up!!! makes the 3-4x wine mark-ups a great "deal", n'est-ce pas

Edited December 4, 2004 by Brad Ballinger (log)

[winebabe]

i'd like to hear mark s' thoughts on putting together a well-priced list. unlike many, apparently, i don't have any problem with restaurants overcharging for petrus or caymus. good as those wines are, in a restaurant context they are "sucker wines". the only people who are going to order them are those who are trying to show off or have more money than sense. to me, a really well-priced wine list is one that acknowledges the economic necessity of gouging those customers but uses some of the profits to underwrite the discounting of some lesser-known wines that they're really crazy about. charge $200 for the caymus cab if you want, but then have the sinskey carneros merlot for $40 or $50.

←

I would put Santa Margarita Pinot Grigio in that "sucker wine" category as well. In reference to the OP - its a bad example of an exreme markup (even though you only used it as a starting point). I have often felt in the case of a wine such as Santa Margarita that if you are too stupid to know any better, then you are the big sucker when you actually pay money for a wine like this. I don't understand why we (the american consumer) keep perpetuating the myth of a wine like this, Yellow Tail, or any such commodity wine. With that being said, many restauranteurs are simply too lazy to care when putting wines like this on their lists. There stock answer is, the wine sells itself. I agree that marking up some wines as "loss leaders" allows the ability to still make a marginal profit on the lesser known wines that you love.

[alacarte]

I wish I could remember where I read this intriguing stat -- I think the NY Times, a few months ago:

On average, most restaurants mark up their wines three times the purchase price they pay.

If I recall this correctly, the context of the stat was in an article about Cru restaurant (NY), which marks up its wine list "only" twice the price they pay.

Not sure if this is a US practice or a global standard. I'll post a link if I can find the article again.