Wine pricing variations in UK

[balex]

I rather extravagantly bought a case of '97 Leoville Lascases from Farr vintners for 450 a case which I thought was a good deal and then a couple of dayas later in Oddbins Fine Wine saw the same wine at the reduced case price of 959. Everywine has it listed at various prices up to 1367 a case. Nickollls and Perks has it for 790 in bond. Basically prices are all over the place.

I was very surprised because I thought that for a very mainstream wine like this you would have a liquid market ( ) but it appears not.

[Scott]

Alex,

this is a particularly odd wine. As you may know the 1997 claret vintage almost sent a number of merchants to the wall. High prices, they took up allocations, and then...

the wine is rubbish.

They can't sell it, and most have accepted that.

The las cases is not a bad wine, and is often dumped at christies and sothebys, where it goes tax paid for around 240 - 300 per case.

this is dumped by the same type of merchant listing it at £1000 and then dumping, claiming a stock write off.

I also would wonder if similar things are common elsewhere.

[balex]

Well, I obviously don't think they are rubbish, otherwise I wouldn't have bought them.

It's clearly not a top vintage but they are drinking well now -- Cos is delicious at the moment, some Pomerol are good etc.

I think it has suffered by comparison with surrounding years (95, 96 and 2000) , and as you say merchants have had some trouble selling. IMO, good values for people that aren't obsessed with ratings.

[MobyP]

It's clearly not a top vintage but they are drinking well now -- Cos is delicious at the moment

So here's what we do - we buy up the entire stock - re-educate the market - and sell it back to them at three times the cost.

[Scott]

Guys,

sorry to spoil the party, but 1997 is really a terrible year.

That's why these wines are dumped at far below the cost of a good vintage.

eg Las Cases 2000 is upwards of £1500 ex vat a case.

the vintage was spoiled by rain at harvest and lots of spring frost, which hampered the intial fruit set. The wines never recovered. Generally they are dilute, sometimes with some nasty green tannins. They lack vivacity or energy in the mid palate.

If the price is right some make perfectly nice drinking, but there is a reason this is a called a 'restaurant' vintage - it means uncomplicated.

Las Cases is not bad, don't agree re Cos, and Latour can usually be had for about £60 at auction and that makes pretty fair drinking.

I would always look to the auction house, where slight bargains can be had on this vintage.

[Chris Kissack]

I think with the 1997 vintage the high prices are what the merchant would really like and the low prices are those who are facing up to reality - or have their backs a little closer to the wall. I would suspect, however, that even at the low prices merchants would have some difficult shifting this stock. The vintage has received a lot of bad press, and I would agree with many of the negative comments that I have seen in print.

My own experience of the vintage is that although there are some wines which provide "attractive early drinking" - like Poujeaux (the only wine I bought for my own consumption, and which has already passed from it's fragrant, perfumed youth through a closed phase into obvious maturity) and Pichon-Baron (which I tasted recently in a vertical tasting) there are also many that, on my assessment, were green, dirty, disjointed and some over-extracted, including big names such as Clinet, LMHB and Lynch-Bages.

If tempted by cheap 97s I would strongly urge "try before you buy" if possible or at least find some trustworthy independent recommendations.

BWs

Chris Kissack

[Craig Camp]

A large welcome to eGullet for Chris Kissack of thewinedoctor.com!

[balex]

Well, Scott, we will have to agree to disagree about some specific wines -- perhaps our tastes are very different.

I particular agree about 'independent recommendations'. Some wine merchants really exaggerate the quality of the wines (Berry Bros. are particular offenders, IMO).

The real question is : I need (hah!) some good claret for current drinking. At £20-40 what can you get?

You can get good chateau in an off year or lesser chateau from a better year. Now few of the 99 s are ready yet so I guess you can still pick up some lesser 95s which might be just about there. I have quite a lot of 89s already, 90s are mostly too expensive. What am I leaving out? 91- 94? I don't think so.

98s not ready yet mostly. Cru Bourgeois from 2000? Not drink claret for a bit?

[oldschooltie]

Not drink claret for a bit?

good idea.

bordeaux prices lost touch with (my) reality ages ago and contact has never been re-established; irrespective of the vintage, they seem to command a premium that very few justify.

[Chris Kissack]

A large welcome to eGullet for Chris Kissack of thewinedoctor.com!

Thank you Craig.

bordeaux prices lost touch with (my) reality ages ago and contact has never been re-established; irrespective of the vintage, they seem to command a premium that very few justify

I don't feel this way at all. I think there is too much focus on where the first growths and super-seconds sit pricewise. These are very high prices which tend to overshadow the dozens of good value (IMHO of course - 'value' is a very subjective thing) wines. Even some second growths such as Gruaud, Leoville Poyferre and Leoville Barton can be picked up at prices I find acceptable. But there are also a good number of other classed growth properties which cost half as much again.

Looking further afield, you can find lovely wines from the Cru Bourgeois properties, from a select group of St Emilion Grand Crus, from Fronsac and Canon-Fronsac, even from Cotes de Castillon. Many of these stand up very well (my personal opinion is that they wine hands down - but this reflects my personal preference for the Bordeaux, particularly Graves/Margaux/St Julien, Style) against New World Bordeaux-style wines on a quality and value comparison.

BWs

Chris

[GordonCooks]

A local restaurant inherited a bunch of french plonk from the previous owner. They have a special list chock full of 97's that they bargain basement for 40.00 a bottle to whomever is interested.

I usually grab one when dining - so far, the 97 Lynch-Bages was good, the Gruaud-Larose was plonk, the Petit Village was corked, the Sociando-Mallet was good, the Beychevelle was dead, etc. The only things decent (which I snagged) were a few bottles of 97 L'Eglise Clinet , some 89 Pomerols, and some 86 Carruades.

[Scott]

Alex,

£20-40 that should be very easy. remember the market doesn't lie, it can under/over rate the odd wine, but never a whole vintage.

for that mark I would suggest

96 Leoville Poyferre

95 Poujeaux

94 Grand Puy Lacoste

91 Pichon Lalande

all excellent wines, and should be available in your price bracket.

Had a truly excellent 2000 Duhart Milon that will drink on the early side the other night.

[Guest fritz]

Not drink claret for a bit?

good idea.

bordeaux prices lost touch with (my) reality ages ago and contact has never been re-established; irrespective of the vintage, they seem to command a premium that very few justify.

You know what? I thought to myself the same quite a few years ago, then got into Spanish wine, and see what happened to them now?! History repeats itself, doesn't it? That's why it's always good to have some new kids on the block...