The dangers of the high horse

FistFullaRoux · January 12, 2004

Hear me out on this. I'm seeing trends here that I can't say I care for. I don't like blanket statements or sweeping indictments, but it's becoming more prevalent.

The first cookbook I ever made something from was a Pillsbury Cookoff. Canned whatevers and a box of somethings. Mix, mash, apply heat or cold as needed, and serve. It got me started cooking.

I eventually learned that I was making things that could be so much better, but it got me cooking. I was at least measuring things and putting them in the proper sized pan. And it taught me how to read a recipe.

It's not all bad, people. I think sometimes we (me included) need to get down off our poverbial high horses and just eat the damn nachos like everyone else does. It won't kill us, and it makes the good food taste even better. Everyone admits to certain boxed or canned things, like its a dirty little secret. (I eat the canned frosting, but I also collect little girl's left shoes.... or something like that. Just offering an example.)

Face it, the canned and preserved foodstuff is here to stay. We can rant against Velveeta all day long, but they sell enough of it to prove that somebody likes it.

I know, just because someone else likes it does not make it good, but just as we (me included) get to feel a little bit superior when someone turns up their nose at "stinky cheese", that same person is thinking that we don't know what we're missing when we pass on the Kraft and Wonder Bread Grilled Cheese Sandwich. It's all food. If nothing else, it is food. It provides calories and stops the grumbling tummy syndrome. And it is within the price range of most Americans.

Not all of us live in New York, or even major cities. I can get pig's feet quicker than I can get Osetra. And by the time I'd go through the process of ordering something special, it is usually past it's prime by the time I can get it home. So it's not worth it.

I wouldn't trust myself with foie gras, even if I could get my hands on it. I'd be too afraid to mess it up and end up throwing 50 bucks out the window. So I'll stick to what I'm comfortable with. One day, when I hit the lottery, I'll buy that lobe or two of foie gras and try a few things. Until then, the rib eye at 9 bucks a pund (on sale) is about a deluxe as I get in the kitchen.

Thanks for letting me vent. I'm not trying to cause trouble, but I see a class war brewing, and I think certain things need to be kept in mind.

Edited to fix typos I didn't catch the 3 times I previewed the post. grrrr...

Edited January 12, 2004 by FistFullaRoux (log)

JennyUptown · January 12, 2004

Legit rant (as confirmed by how nervous I was to admit that I don't like seafood in this forum!)

docsconz · January 12, 2004

Food does not need to be about chauvinism or involve a class war to be good. Certainly a certain amount of snobbery goes along with food (not to excuse it) as it does with any passion.

From my own perspective, there is nothing inherently wrong with Velveeta (it was the first cheese I liked as a child) or other processed "affordable" foods. When used properly and prepared well they can taste good. It is also true that the finest ingredients can be ruined. The problem I have with "industrial" food though is the potential effect on "non-industrial" food and while it is affordable now, what effects will reliance on these products have on health - individual human health as well as global environmental health and even economic health. It is because of concerns like these that I feel that a lot of the philosophies of the Slow Food Movement make a lot of sense and have a lot to offer.

Katherine · January 12, 2004

Bravo!

...just eat the damn nachos like everyone else does....

No! Nachos are not damn nachos, they are good food. Especially when made with generic supermarket mild cheddar or monterrey jack cheese.

...Kraft and Wonder Bread Grilled Cheese Sandwich...

This is how a true grilled cheese sandwich is supposed to be made. Anything else needs to be labeled with the provenance of its ingredients.

...Not all of us live in New York...

I've pointed out this before, but every time I've been told it is untrue, that what goes in NYC is absolute truth in the rest of the world.

Accidentally hit <post> long before I was ready...

Edited January 12, 2004 by Katherine (log)

AzRaeL · January 12, 2004

ermm..a full third of the time, my cooking is so bad that it goes straight to the trash after a mouthful or two :)

there i admitted it.

FistFullaRoux · January 12, 2004

Food does not need to be about chauvinism or involve a class war to be good. Certainly a certain amount of snobbery goes along with food (not to excuse it) as it does with any passion.
From my own perspective, there is nothing inherently wrong with Velveeta (it was the first cheese I liked as a child) or other processed "affordable" foods. When used properly and prepared well they can taste good. It is also true that the finest ingredients can be ruined. The problem I have with "industrial" food though is the potential effect on "non-industrial" food and while it is affordable now, what effects will reliance on these products have on health - individual human health as well as global environmental health and even economic health. It is because of concerns like these that I feel that a lot of the philosophies of the Slow Food Movement make a lot of sense and have a lot to offer.

But what about the people without kitchens? There's lots of those around. Not all of us have All Clad. An apartment electric stove and a cheap pan from Wal Mart is the best a lot of people can do. Slow food, organic produce, free range whatever are simply out of range for the vast majority of Americans.

Yes, the health benefits of fresh, well prepared produce are well documented, and are the thing to strive for. But it is simply not an option for millions of people. That can of green beans on sale at 3 for $1 has been a meal for me at times. When you can quiet your belly for 33 cents, while trying to get enough sleep to make it through another day, it is a miracle in itself, and is welcomed. If on that day, someone would have started expounding to me on those subjects, they would have been very likely ended up walking funny afterward.

Sometimes it's not a choice, and I don't see any good in making people feel bad about eating within their budget or cooking experience. Not everyone can be a good cook. You can teach a few basic techniques, but it will never make you good, unless there is the certain something that shows up after enough practice. You can show someone how to lay bricks or paint a flower, but not everyone can excel at it.

docsconz · January 12, 2004

...Not all of us live in New York...
I've pointed out this before, but every time I've been told it is untrue, that what goes in NYC is absolute truth in the rest of the world.

That is one of the things that keeps this site interesting. :smile: Regional and international differences are one of the things that makes Culinaria interesting to me. I would hate to see everything homogeneous throughout the country and the world whether it be foies gras or grilled cheese. It doesn't have to be expensive, it just has to be good.

As far as being able to get good ingredients, that is eminently possible wherever you live thanks to modern transportation. Good food items can be ordered directly from the source with rapid arrival in great condition. While this is likely to be prohibitively expensive for most people to do on a regular basis, it may prove to be worthwhile for special occasions or whenever the whim and wherewithal strikes. The point is that "special food" is not limited to people who live in NYC or other big cities. I don't. By thw, Roux, I think that it is pretty cool that you can get pig's feet so easily.

JennyUptown · January 12, 2004

ermm..a full third of the time, my cooking is so bad that it goes straight to the trash after a mouthful or two :)
there i admitted it.

I have found my soulmate!

Mudpuppie · January 12, 2004

Legit rant (as confirmed by how nervous I was to admit that I don't like seafood in this forum!)

Hear hear!

I'm a vegetarian. There. I said it. Whew.

Boris_A · January 12, 2004

I can get pig's feet quicker than I can get Osetra. And by the time I'd go through the process of ordering something special, it is usually past it's prime by the time I can get it home. So it's not worth it.
So I'll stick to what I'm comfortable with.

Yore are in the best company. Some of the greatest chefs of all times showed (at least off record) their private love for simple ingredients and basic preparations.

Get the best pig's feet you can find around and try to improve on and on the way to prepare them. There's no more culinary delight possible in this world.

docsconz · January 12, 2004

Sometimes it's not a choice, and I don't see any good in making people feel bad about eating within their budget or cooking experience. Not everyone can be a good cook. You can teach a few basic techniques, but it will never make you good, unless there is the certain something that shows up after enough practice. You can show someone how to lay bricks or paint a flower, but not everyone can excel at it.

It is not only a choice, but I think it is a responsibility of those who can to support endeavors like Slow Food just so that people can feel good about what they eat and feel good from what they eat. I'm not saying that people should live beyond their means or feel bad about what they eat simply because that is all they can eat. What I am saying is that the grass roots of food production is critical in feeding people well in an economically viable way.

Of course not everyone can be a good cook or afford "gourmet" items and yes in today's environment a lot of people are forced to eat food that isn't necessarily nutritionally sound because they don't know better or don't have the wherewithal to find something better. Does that mean that efforts to improve the overall availability, quality and sustainability of the food supply from top to bottom should not be supported? I think it is all the more reason to do so. Some of the best and most important efforts of Slow Food are occurring in the third world as well as places like the US and Italy. Slow Food is all about sustainability.

Raynickben · January 12, 2004

I think most of us cannot or will not make everything from scratch, or buy the best of the best. If we all did that Martha Stewart would not have had a career.

But it is interesting to read the posts from people who do make their own stocks weekly, for example. Do I want to do that? No, but I learn from reading about it.

I don't believe anyone on these forums mean to offend or belittle any one else's tastes and culinary talents.

FistFullaRoux · January 12, 2004

Yore are in the best company. Some of the greatest chefs of all times showed (at least off record) their private love for simple ingredients and basic preparations.

I was reminded of this last night watching a replay of A Cook's Tour (the Russian episode) when AB said that bread and soup were like alchemy. Simple ingredients turned into something magical.

balex · January 12, 2004

I think it's important never to forget the importance of simplicity and honesty. Never forget that some of the best meals have come out of the least well-equipped kitchens. Never forget (I read that you should say things three times for rhetorical effect), brothers and sisters (now I've gone too far), that what people talk about in the media is just what is new and trendy, not what is good.

Don't try to find the perfect dish -- try to find the perfection in everything you eat.

(I am serious, but I am English so we have to cloak our sincerity in irony)

FistFullaRoux · January 12, 2004

I don't believe anyone on these forums mean to offend or belittle any one else's tastes and culinary talents.

I don't think people are intending to do that either, but it is happening. It's happened to me, and I know a thing or two, even having worked in a couple of professional kitchens, and growing up with a Cajun grandmother (who has never made a stock in her life, BTW).

Admittedly, it may not be premeditated, but it happens.

Comfort Me · January 12, 2004

Legit rant (as confirmed by how nervous I was to admit that I don't like seafood in this forum!)
Hear hear!
I'm a vegetarian. There. I said it. Whew.

I felt better once I came out...

I'm allergic to raw alcohol. It makes me swell up and turn horrible colors. Not pretty.

So I'll never taste that case of '61 Bordeaux in the cellar. And I'll never again feel quite the same eating in a 4-star restaurant (where they look so disappointed when you tell them you won't be drinking wine).

Edited January 12, 2004 by Comfort Me (log)

phaelon56 · January 12, 2004

I've pointed out this before, but every time I've been told it is untrue, that what goes in NYC is absolute truth in the rest of the world.

Just want to be sure I'm understanding this statement correctly. Are you stating or implying that "what goes in NYC" (by that I presume you mean something that is enjoyed, appreciated and widely accepted in NYC as a standard of excellence?) is or shuold be accepted as a defacto standard in the rest of the world? If that's the case.... we need to separate the NY Forum in a big hurry and have a distinct and unique discussion area for cetrtain parts of Manhattan and its residents alone!

I say this mostly in jest but on a personal level I coinsider to be important that we continue to have free-wheeling and wide ranging discussions but maintain respect for each others differences. I'll tell you right now that I've never tasted truffles or foie gras, have eaten in only one real "destination" restaurant in my life and will go home tonight to cook "beef stew in a bag" straight from the McCormick's package I got in the local supermarket. It doesn't mean I can't enjoy reading and where appropriate participating in discussions fo far more esoteric culinary expriences. It does mean that there's rom for everyoen here at eguelt and we need to work at making people feel welcome. It is not and never will be for everyone - I don't think we're looking to eb the AOL of fod discussion but the surface of the potential use rcommunity has barely been scratched and we need to build things up. My only real suggestion is that folks wanting to be on a high horse should enjoy that sort of horse play on the appropriate threads and maintain a respectful or appropriately low-key presence on threads relating to more mundane topics.

A a forum host who is sharing responsibility with Docsconz for trying to stimulate and maintain more involvement and discussion in the NY forum by folks from outside of Metro NYC.... I can assure you that the topics of interest will in some cases be far from hoity-toity but we'll try to keep them lively and interesting.

It's worth noting that in smaller communities such as Syracuse where many people are a bit less worldy less affluent and less well traveled, they tend to be less inclined to chat about cultural topics, politics and the arts and more inclined to talk about family, the weather or local sports. Interestingly enough.... food, cooking and dining inevitably also become active topics of discussion when acquaintances or coworkers gather together in social settings or during break times in the workplace, especially when it is a gathering of mixed genders. I know this trend is not unique to Syracuse but having lived in some other places for a few years, including the NYC area, I think it's more prevalent outside of major metro areas. If just a small percentage of folks with that sort of inclination can discover Egullet, feel welcomed here and become active participants in our community - we will all be enriched.

docsconz · January 12, 2004

Another point as evidenced by this thread is the role of a site like eGullet. There are people from all sorts of backgrounds and culinary points of view. I think that is great. While there is a certain amount of bias, chauvinism and snobbery present here, I think it is unavoidable because of the fact that people are here because they are passionate about food. Passion breeds strong opinion and as we all know people can have different opinions. This keeps discussion interesting. eGullet is a site for discussion and learning. It can be difficult for someone new to the site to not feel intimidated especially in certain threads discussing esotric foods and techniques or exotic restaurants. eGullet is a big site with enough room for everyone's interests so long as they are culinary and within the UA :smile:

FistFullaRoux · January 12, 2004

To be clear, I am not trying to say that lively discourse on a $200 bottle of wine or any other expensive ingredient is out of place on this site. This forum is the perfect place for it.

But let's at least be honest with each other. I've made stock a handful of times in my life, and it was all recently. I eat Hamburger Helper 2 or 3 times a week, because I can afford it, and I have time to make it. I don't have time during the week to slow braise a big chunk of meat and make a couple of sides. I don't have enough burners or pots to make a week's worth of food on Sundays.

But when I have friends over, or it's a special occasion, I'll put the time, effort and money into it. It is worth it then. (Although being Cajun makes the special meals interesting. I have 10 people waiting for invites the next time I do red beans and rice. 99 cents for beans and 5 bucks for sausage and rice, but it takes 4 hours).

fifi · January 12, 2004

This is a large and diverse group. That is the source of its charm to me. We have professionals and we have home cooks. We have a wide range of experience in both of those groups. I consider myself an experienced cook. The day I think that I know so much that I can't learn something new, that is the day that I should hang it up and go home.

I can't tell you how many things I have learned since joining eGullet but I can tell you that a large percentage has been from new members that had the courage to put their "toe in the water" and post something they knew.

I also learn valuable things from the seasoned professionals that are here. And I see evidence all the time that they learn here, too.

There is a lot of evidence that the vast majority of members also enjoy a lot of diversity in their dining experiences. I, for one, enjoy the tamales from The Tamale Guy in the van by the side of the road or my favorite seafood joint as much (sometimes more, actually) than that $200 fine dining experience. (I think dressing up is a PITA and the food has to be really good for me to do it.)

What we have to try to achieve here is a climate of inclusiveness where all members feel comfortable to state their preferences and pecadillos without fear of recrimination or reprisal. It kind of bothers me that someone up-thread was "afraid" to post that she didn't like seafood. Well... I HATE truffles and caviar makes me gag. SO THERE! :raz:

I noticed something the other day. I am prone to playing computer solitaire while stuck on some particularly boring teleconference. When you deal a hand that doesn't have a lot of variation, the chances are that it is not a winning hand. (Who needs three 7s?) A well varied hand has a much higher chance of winning.

docsconz · January 12, 2004

But let's at least be honest with each other. I've made stock a handful of times in my life, and it was all recently. I eat Hamburger Helper 2 or 3 times a week, because I can afford it, and I have time to make it. I don't have time during the week to slow braise a big chunk of meat and make a couple of sides. I don't have enough burners or pots to make a week's worth of food on Sundays.

Maybe some people put a value judgement on what you eat on a daily basis, but I would say that would be in the extreme minority here on eGullet and I would take them with a large grain of salt (preferably fleur de sel :biggrin: )

fifi · January 12, 2004

But what about the people without kitchens? There's lots of those around. Not all of us have All Clad. An apartment electric stove and a cheap pan from Wal Mart is the best a lot of people can do. Slow food, organic produce, free range whatever are simply out of range for the vast majority of Americans.
Yes, the health benefits of fresh, well prepared produce are well documented, and are the thing to strive for. But it is simply not an option for millions of people. That can of green beans on sale at 3 for $1 has been a meal for me at times. When you can quiet your belly for 33 cents, while trying to get enough sleep to make it through another day, it is a miracle in itself, and is welcomed. If on that day, someone would have started expounding to me on those subjects, they would have been very likely ended up walking funny afterward.
Sometimes it's not a choice, and I don't see any good in making people feel bad about eating within their budget or cooking experience. Not everyone can be a good cook. You can teach a few basic techniques, but it will never make you good, unless there is the certain something that shows up after enough practice. You can show someone how to lay bricks or paint a flower, but not everyone can excel at it.

I don't think eGullet is now or ever was intended for "the vast majority" of Americans or anyone else for that matter. Keep in mind that this site has a very concisely stated purpose and that is discussion of issues related to food. The natural audience for eGullet is the group of people that take food seriously, may even be passionate about it, and probably have a strong desire to learn. I think you can take that can of green beans seriously and come here to get ideas of what to do with it.

Then if someone comes up with something along the lines of "Oh my dear... Throw that out and go down to the Elbonian Farmer's Market and get some of those divine Heirloom haricots ver that were watered with glacial water from Mount PoohBah. Just remember to salt them only with the Sacred Crystals from BumFuk Bay that was gathered by nymphs at the full moon." Well... then a lot of us will have a real good time tearin' 'em up. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

FistFullaRoux · January 12, 2004

...Sacred Crystals from BumFuk Bay that was gathered by nymphs at the full moon."

I think I may have had that once. That's why my wife tells me I need to lay off the heroin before bed... :biggrin:

fresco · January 12, 2004

I'm only expressing my own views here, but one of the things that has impressed me from the beginning about eGullet is the incredible range of experience and the diversity of points of view, with a good post about burgers attended and responded to with every bit of reverence (and perhaps more) than is accorded a discussion of, say, El Bulli.

It has an uncanny resemblance, in that respect, to a just about anything written by H. L. Mencken--who swoops, often in the same sentence, from the spelling of beat cops (he never met a one who didn't spell larceny "larsene") to a learned disquisition on the origins of the American language.

The whole point I think, is not necessarily how fine and refined the food is, but how well and passionately someone posts about it.

tommy · January 12, 2004

unforunately, passion sometimes turns into preaching. at least that's the way it can come across.

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