Attacking Italian Restaurants

[slkinsey]

è un filo molto interessante che hai iniziato qui, craig

[Craig Camp]

è un filo molto interessante che hai iniziato qui, craig

Veremente una coda lunga, interessante, abbastanza vivace e qualche volta un po strano - ma sto contento perche sto mangando qui.

[Pan]

Michael: I have only tasted Malaysian fruit in London, shipped by air, and obviously it isn't the same. Then again, have you tasted mamey and guanábana from Cuba?

Malaysian fruit shipped by air to London is not remotely comparable to fruit that was picked today or yesterday. Even rambutan that's been shipped to Kuala Lumpur is hugely inferior to rambutan you can get in any pasar in Terengganu. And the durian that was picked from my friend's tree yesterday is many orders of magnitude superior to any durian for sale anywhere. I've never tasted fruit from Cuba, what with the asinine embargo in the U.S. and the fact that I have yet to visit Cuba.

But I definitely understand your points about western Europe.

[menton1]

C'est merveilleux qu'on peut parler ici dans une langue étrangere; mais je ne parle pas italien.... seulement anglais et francais!!

Et d'accord, Craig, c'est un sujet très interressant!!

[slkinsey]

Oh, no... what have I started here?! I know, let's play a game of "alienate the English-speakers!"

Or should I say: Lassen uns die englischsprechers entfremden?

[Pan]

The original point of this thread is WHY does everyone love to beat up Italian restaurants outside of Italy after they have eaten in Italy. I think this is indeed an interesting topic.

You think that's bad? Just how laughable is the best Malaysian restaurant in New York (in Flushing) compared to anyplace at all in Malaysia? And how pathetic are most Chinese restaurants here compared to Malaysian Chinese restaurants?

[menton1]

Oh, no... what have I started here?! I know, let's play a game of "alienate the English-speakers!"

Or should I say: Lassen uns die englischsprechers entfremden?

Like Ralph Kramden used to say, "You did it, Alice!!"

[Craig Camp]

Even rambutan that's been shipped to Kuala Lumpur is hugely inferior to rambutan you can get in any pasar in Terengganu. And the durian that was picked from my friend's tree yesterday is many orders of magnitude superior to any durian for sale anywhere.

You're right - pan is using too many foreign words!

[slkinsey]

Good point, Michael. Although I think the point may be made that there is a much greater comminality of ingredients produced in Italy and the United States as compared to Malaysia and the United States.

My main thought, upon reflection, is that I do not agree with the premise that there aren't any good Italian-Italian restaurants in America. I think the reason everyone loves to beat up Italian restaurants in America after they have eaten in Italy is that they are not eating in Italian restaurants. They are eating in Italian-American restaurants. I can't imagine that anyone who just came back from Rome would find himself called to "beat up" on Lupa.

[slkinsey]

Even rambutan that's been shipped to Kuala Lumpur is hugely inferior to rambutan you can get in any pasar in Terengganu. And the durian that was picked from my friend's tree yesterday is many orders of magnitude superior to any durian for sale anywhere.

You're right - pan is using too many foreign words!

Yes! Prepare the tar and feathers! Fetch a rail!

[Pan]

Perhaps a more interesting question might be: What national cuisines do travel well to other countries. And, of those national cuisines, what is it about them that travels well? Or, more to the point, what part of them travels well and what is it about certain cuisines that allows us to identify a partial transplantation of one country's cuisine as "good X food" and not others?

Chinese cuisine travelled spectacularly to Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore, and very nicely to Indonesia. To a large extent, what happened is that local ingredients and various local techniques were embraced, creating a kind of regional Chinese cuisine that functions as a fusion in the best possible sense. For example, in Thailand, Chinese cooks have adopted things like mixing meat and fruit, and in Malaysia and Singapore, they've adopted local vegetables and, in many instances, strong use of hot pepper, plus use of curry flavor, belacan, etc.

By the way, if you want to find a country where people are as passionate about food as Italy, consider Malaysia. I have to wonder what Italian restaurants may be like there. I heard a story on the local English-language news report this past August about an Italian restaurant in Kuala Lumpur that admitted to compromising in one way to the tastes of its clientele: By adding large quantities of hot green pepper slices to its spaghetti bolognese. I think it would be interesting to solicit some comments on this thread by Malaysians.

[Pan]

If you folks hadn't already complained about my using pasar (=bazaar) and words for fruits like rambutan, I was going to post some sentences in Malay. Quit the foreign-language posts, folks.

(Yes, I read both Italian and French very well.)

[balex]

There is one good Italian restaurant in London -- called Assaggi. This is authentic and good. It is not very well known because it is small and the cook does not appear on TV.

This is by no means a generally held opinion; knowledgable friends have spoken disparagingly of it. I've eaten very well indeed, more than once, at Artigiano in Belsize Village, which was highly commended in this year's PAPA awards. I'm sure there is someone out there who will immediately rubbish it. It's like arguing over blind dates.

I have had a very good lunch there and an ok dinner. Both were 'authentic' (I have lived for 8 years in Italy) and within the parameters, shall we say, of a reasonable restaurant in Italy. It has some serious flaws I think, but most restaurants do. In somma, it's close enough.

I certainly don't mean to imply that this is the only authentic Italian restaurant in London. And people argue about restaurants in Italy too -- so a bit of controversy is all part of the mix.

[slkinsey]

Perhaps a more interesting question might be: What national cuisines do travel well to other countries.  And, of those national cuisines, what is it about them that travels well?  Or, more to the point, what part of them travels well and what is it about certain cuisines that allows us to identify a partial transplantation of one country's cuisine as "good X food" and not others?

Chinese cuisine travelled spectacularly to Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore, and very nicely to Indonesia. To a large extent, what happened is that local ingredients and various local techniques were embraced, creating a kind of regional Chinese cuisine that functions as a fusion in the best possible sense. For example, in Thailand, Chinese cooks have adopted things like mixing meat and fruit, and in Malaysia and Singapore, they've adopted local vegetables and, in many instances, strong use of hot pepper, plus use of curry flavor, belacan, etc.

Okay. But I would argue that this same sort of thing happened in the creation of the "fusion cuisine" known as Italian-American.

What I wonder is: if someone came back from China where they really loved the food and went to one of these Chinese places in Thailand, would they consider it "good Chinese," or might they complain and say "this isn't very good Chinese food -- it has fruit in it."

[Fat Guy]

A few additional thoughts:

- To go way back to the original question, I wonder if there might be a bit of travelers' double-standard being used in restaurant-selection. I wonder, would the same people who travel to Italy and rave about the food pay the same amount of money, devote the same amount of time, and accept the same limited choices they accept in Italy if they were presented to them back home? Does part of the pleasure of eating in Italy, for most Americans at least, require that it be part of a vacation?

- It's interesting that there is a massive Italian population in the US, but no or very few good Italian restaurants, whereas there is almost no French population in the US yet there are tons of excellent French restaurants. Perhaps this says something about the relative abilities of France and Italy -- as cultures -- to transmit their culinary traditions outside of certain narrowly defined geographic areas.

- I think we are underemphasizing the difference between food and restaurants. Again, this causes me to wonder about the difference between the French and Italian approaches to restauration. The French basically invented the modern restaurant. In Italy, however, there were barely any restaurants pre-war. My understanding is that many Italians had to travel abroad to learn the restaurant business in the early days (aka the 1950s) of the Italian restaurant business. This would mean, for example, that Italian-American restaurants on the whole may very well predate Italian-Italian restaurants. That could explain something, though I'm not sure what.

[giovanni]

I can't imagine that anyone who just came back from Rome would find himself called to "beat up" on Lupa.

You're right. But Lupa is a pleasant exception.

[robyn]

OK - here is a theory no one has explored.

The United States is a country of immigrants. Once you get outside of large major metropolitan areas - and you're an immigrant - what can you do if you don't speak English very well? In my area - if you're Mexican you become a gardener. If you're Russian you become a construction worker. Note that we basically have no Mexican or Russian restaurants.

If you're Chinese - I can't say restaurants are the #1 choice - but they're high up there. Ditto with Italian. We have lots of Chinese and Italian restaurants - and they are almost all run by first generation immigrants. You will hear lots of Chinese and Italian. But you won't get good food. Why? Because most of these immigrants weren't in the food business before they came here!

There was in fact a funny story in the New York Times a while back about a Chinese immigrant family that moved from NYC to rural NW Georgia - which was much more similar to their home than NYC (they could raise pigs in their back yard - the place was safe and friendly - etc.). What did they do when they moved to NW Georgia - they bought the only Chinese restaurant in town - even though the husband/owner was an accountant - not a chef. He couldn't attempt to be an accountant in the US because his English was poor - but he could try to be a chef.

We have the same thing where we live. One of the newest largest - perhaps 200 seats - most successful Chinese places in town is owned by a Chinese immigrant family. It's a Chinese buffett (all you can eat for $5.95 for lunch - those of you in New York City don't snicker). It is obvious these people weren't in the food industry before they moved here - but they are trying (with varying degrees of success) - and the place was packed with other Chinese immigrants when we were there last weekend. We have our fingers crossed that the place will do very well - and they will be able to afford a good Chinese chef.

It is the same with Italian restaurants here. There are a couple of local "groups" of restaurants owned by various families. They are successful. And the original founders are all Italian first generation immigrants who I am sure had no culinary training before they opened their restaurants. There aren't as many Italian immigrants here as Chinese - so these restaurants will never be totally packed with Italians. But if lots of Chinese immigrants will eat mediocre food at a Chinese restaurant owned by other immigrants - how can we demand more from a bunch of rednecks who don't know beans about any ethnic food at Italian restaurants?

By the way - I'm sure this will also cause some snickering - but the Chinese buffett really says a lot about immigration in the US. It of course has traditional Chinese dishes that westerners are used to. It has some stuff that is a little unusual - like chicken feet. And it also has things like pizza and apple pie. It is not unusual to see people who don't speak English putting their pizza next to the chicken feet - and the apple pie next to the sesame balls. Holy melting pot! Robyn

[robyn]

- It's interesting that there is a massive Italian population in the US, but no or very few good Italian restaurants, whereas there is almost no French population in the US yet there are tons of excellent French restaurants... Perhaps this says something about the relative abilities of France and Italy -- as cultures -- to transmit their culinary traditions outside of certain narrowly defined geographic areas...

I think you are confusing NYC with the rest of the US (old New Yorker Steinberg problem). We have a few French restaurants - and they're as lousy as the Italian restaurants.

The things that restaurants do best here are fried fish (all local and tasty) - BBQ (I never get into BBQ arguments - too dangerous in these parts) - and - on the high end - new American fusion.

I think I detect a theme. We do local stuff best. Could the same be said of Italy? Robyn

[slkinsey]

- To go way back to the original question, I wonder if there might be a bit of travelers' double-standard being used in restaurant-selection. I wonder, would the same people who travel to Italy and rave about the food pay the same amount of money, devote the same amount of time, and accept the same limited choices they accept in Italy if they were presented to them back home? Does part of the pleasure of eating in Italy, for most Americans at least, require that it be part of a vacation?

Certainly that is part of it. A friend of my family once came back from a 2 week trip to Italy and his one complaint was that "the Italian food was unrelenting." Not that it was bad, mind you, but that he found it monotonous to eat Italian food every day for two weeks. how many of us (besides Craig, Bill and myself) could happily eat Italian food 6 days a week for 6 months? There are plenty of people who eat "American food" all the time and who don't find that monotonous. Italians, it should be said, do not think of their cooking as "Italian food." To them, it's just the way food is.

- It's interesting that there is a massive Italian population in the US, but no or very few good Italian restaurants, whereas there is almost no French population in the US yet there are tons of excellent French restaurants. Perhaps this says something about the relative abilities of France and Italy -- as cultures -- to transmit their culinary traditions outside of certain narrowly defined geographic areas.

I think I touched on this a little in one of my posts above. Two things here:

1. I think you are badly mistaken if you suppose that there are "tons of excellent French restaurants" in the United States. I also take exception with your assertion that there are "no or very few good Italian restaurants" here. In fact, while there are likely more excellent French restaurants than Italian-Italian restaurants, I would bet you that there are more excellent Italian-American restaurants in America than there are excellent French restaurants. For example, where I went to college in Appleton, Wisconsin there is an Italian-American restaurant and a French restaurant, among many others. The Italian-American restaurant (run by Mexicans trained in Chicago) is reasonably good, and the French restaurant is terrible.

2. I don't necessarily think that it is the case that France, for example, it really exporting its culinary culture wholesale. I think it is the case that France is exporting part of its culinary culture, and the world has come to identify that food as "French." But, I am not sure that the "French" food one eats in most American French restaurants would be identified as being all that French were it put on the table in France -- and, if so, whether it would be identified as being a particularly good example in that respect. France, as you point out, has the advantage of having more or less invented international restaurant culture, so many things about the standard restaurant format work very well for neo-French cooking. Italy has exported part of its culinary culture too, and quite successfully, in the form of Italian-American cooking. But, in terms of the real Italian experience, it is fighting against the already established French-derrived restaurant culture: antipasto, primo and secondo instead of appetizer and entre; starch separate from protein instead of all together; less sauce and more emphasis on the primary ingredients; etc... these are all obstacles to having a truly Italian-style dining experience outside of Italy.

- I think we are underemphasizing the difference between food and restaurants. Again, this causes me to wonder about the difference between the French and Italian approaches to restauration. The French basically invented the modern restaurant. In Italy, however, there were barely any restaurants pre-war. My understanding is that many Italians had to travel abroad to learn the restaurant business in the early days (aka the 1950s) of the Italian restaurant business. This would mean, for example, that Italian-American restaurants on the whole may very well predate Italian-Italian restaurants. That could explain something, though I'm not sure what.

Yes. I've gone into this in another thread. Here is a relevant excerpt:

1. America had a huge impact on Italian culture. This is evident in the social and agricultural changes that came about due to the fact that the peasants could (and did) leave for the New World, and also in the things that were brought back from America when many of the immigrants eventually returned to Italy with their heads full of new ideas. This was not necessarily an impact of American culture on Italian culture, but rather a huge impact on Italian culture that happened due to the existence of America and the possibility of affordable immigration.

2. Prior to the mid-20th century there basically was no Italian restaurant culture in Italy. Unlike, say, France or America, there really weren't many professional restaurant cooks preparing Italian food in Italy in the early 20th century. There was the "high cooking" that happened in the homes of the wealthy and the "low cooking" that happened in the homes of the peasants. There wasn't much of a middle class. What trattorie and osterie there were existed mostly as places where people would eat when they were traveling and didn't have anywhere else to go (i.e., were not guests at someone else's home). Unlike most well-developed restaurant cultures of the time, there was no expectation that one would be eating especially good food at one of these establishments -- quite to the contrary, they were not considered to be very good. Families did not "go out to the restaurant" for fun in those days. No one could afford it, and those that could were getting better food at home.

3. When restaurant culture began in Italy, it began primarily as a way to cater to foreigners and did not serve particularly Italian food. The first country that had a significant number of Italian restaurants serving Italian-style food was America. Italian-American restaurant culture was well-established in America when there was no Italian-Italian restaurant culture to speak of in Italy. The Italian immigrants who opened restaurants in America were not copying trattorie from their home country, because there weren't any -- certainly none with which these people would have been familiar. They were copying the other restaurants they saw around them in America and serving adaptations of their traditional home cooking. Italian restaurant culture as we know it is basically a thing of the second half of the twentieth century.

[Adam Balic]

I'm not really sure if I understand what is ment by "limitations in Italian food in Italy"? "Italian food" is a useful interlectual construct, but in reality while there is 'food found in Italy', I can't see any, other then very superficial (all that pasta dude), demonstation of a pan-Italian cuisine.

The food tends to be very regional. Villages in the same region may have variations on similar recipes, but even in this case there are noticable differences in food preparations, for those that can be bothered to find them.

No idea about Italian restuarants in the USA, but if they are anything like Australia they will be un-representative of Italian food (as found in Italy). Apart from Rissoto, Polenta and Osso Bucco, Food north of Rome is not represented. Regions like Friuli and Marche are still relatively unknown in terms of food, which is stagering considering the amount of visitors to Italy each year.

[Fat Guy]

I think you are badly mistaken if you suppose that there are "tons of excellent French restaurants" in the United States. I also take exception with your assertion that there are "no or very few good Italian restaurants" here. In fact, while there are likely more excellent French restaurants than Italian-Italian restaurants, I would bet you that there are more excellent Italian-American restaurants in America than there are excellent French restaurants.

How would you propose we measure all this? Certainly if we look at the various major metro area newspapers that rate restaurants, we're likely to find that the top echelon (four stars or whatever) in every major city in America is totally dominated by French restaurants. For example, in New York City there are five restaurants that carry a four-star rating from the New York Times:

Alain Ducasse

Bouley

Daniel

Jean Georges

Le Bernardin

I don't think there is any Italian restaurant in New York City that competes at that level.

Checking the San Francisco Chronicle, which also uses a four-star system, only the following five restaurants have that rating:

Aqua

Chez Panisse

Fleur de Lys

French Laundry

La Folie

In Chicago, where the Tribune believes there are 10 four-star restaurants, I found one Italian restaurant with four-stars: Spiaggia. Here's that list:

Ambria

Everest

Tru

Arun's

Carlos'

Charlie Trotter's

Les Nomades

Ritz-Carlton Dining Room

Spiaggia

Trio

So in those three metro areas, which are probably the three or at least three of the five top dining cities in the USA, all told there is one Italian restaurant in the top tier, at least according to the leading local newspaper critics.

Now I'm sure there are more Italian restaurants at the three-star level -- and that would still probably count as what you mean by "excellent" -- but without doing the hard work of going through several lists of restaurants I know nothing about, I'd be pretty confident betting you that the French and French-influenced-American places outnumber the Italians in that category as well. Probably at the two-star level too. But I'd be willing to be corrected if someone wants to comb through the lists and tabulate them.

[Adam Balic]

Now I'm sure there are more Italian restaurants at the three-star level -- and that would still probably count as what you mean by "excellent" -- but without doing the hard work of going through several lists of restaurants I know nothing about, I'd be pretty confident betting you that the French and French-influenced-American places outnumber the Italians in that category as well. Probably at the two-star level too. But I'd be willing to be corrected if someone wants to comb through the lists and tabulate them.

Since the top restaurants in the Western world have been dominated by French inspired cuisine for the last 150 years, why is it such a surprise that this is still the case?

[ecr]

>>By the way, if you want to find a country where people are as passionate about food as Italy, consider Malaysia. I have to wonder what Italian restaurants may be like there. I heard a story on the local English-language news report this past August about an Italian restaurant in Kuala Lumpur that admitted to compromising in one way to the tastes of its clientele: By adding large quantities of hot green pepper slices to its spaghetti bolognese. I think it would be interesting to solicit some comments on this thread by Malaysians.<<

Thais are easily as passionate about food as Malaysians, but Italian food in Thailand is as "off" as much of Italian food in the States (with the exception of a fine wood-oven pizza place). Just some very bizarre things offered in restaurants that claim to be "real" Italian. In spite of the fact that very good local products are available (eg. Thailand's established dairy industry means that you can buy some very decent locally produced resh mozzarella there ... in the supermarket). I've not eaten Italian food in Malaysia (why bother, when there's claypot chicken, nasi lemak, roti, and sambal grilled fish? And if I found hot green pepper slices in my bolognese sauce I'd scream ), given my experience in Thailand and the rest of Asia, there's a lack of demand for "real" Italian (or a lack of understanding about what Italian cuisine is .. or both). Add to this the fact that a lot of better-off Asians, those who would be able to afford dining in a decent Italian establishment, look down on Italian cuisine and wine as a poor cousin to French cuisine and wine. It's the snoot factor, and you'll find it in otherwise very sophisticated, well-travelled people.

>>What I wonder is: if someone came back from China where they really loved the food and went to one of these Chinese places in Thailand, would they consider it "good Chinese," or might they complain and say "this isn't very good Chinese food -- it has fruit in it." <<

The latter. Having lived in China, if I want "real" Chinese food the way I remember it from my experiences in China I usually make it myself. Though I can appreciate local variations for what they are, yuxiang rousi in Bangkok just ain't real yuxiang rousi IMO. The exception is if you find a Chinese restaurant run by Chinese immigrants FOR Chinese immigrants (there are a couple places in Bangkok) --- usually a Chinese-only menu and half the time they don't speak much Thai. Then it's the real deal and hasn't been watered down to accomodate local tastes (but isn't this much like the Chinese restaurants in the States ... or anywhere outside of China?).

What's the point here? Oh yeah ... I agree that once you've eaten Italian in Italy it's hard to be happy with Italian elsewhere. And I think that it's a sad fact that in many cases, cuisines exported from their home are dumbed down/bastardized/however you want to put it --- to suit local tastes and the necessities of local products etc.

[Craig Camp]

New York City there are five restaurants that carry a four-star rating from the New York Times:

Alain Ducasse

Bouley

Daniel

Jean Georges

Le Bernardin

Checking the San Francisco Chronicle, which also uses a four-star system, only the following five restaurants have that rating:

Aqua

Chez Panisse

Fleur de Lys

French Laundry

La Folie

In Chicago, where the Tribune believes there are 10 four-star restaurants, I found one Italian restaurant with four-stars: Spiaggia. Here's that list:

Ambria

Everest

Tru

Arun's

Carlos'

Charlie Trotter's

Les Nomades

Ritz-Carlton Dining Room

Spiaggia

Trio

ah ha! So this proves that Chicago is not only the best restaurant town, but has the best Italian restaurant in the country!

Score:

Chicago - 40 stars

SF - 20 stars

NYC - 16 stars

A star is a star right.

Actually Spiaggia is a bit French and a bit Italian. If it was in Italy Michelin would give it 2 stars.

[Craig Camp]

There is a major difference between French and Italian cuisine outside their home countries.

France exported its top cooking styles and wines.

Italy exported its people that took their home cooking with them. It is only in recent times that Italian food outside Italy was considered anything more that good hearty food that you could buy cheaply.

The Italians led with pizza, pasta, bulk Soave and Chianti in fiasci -- not white truffles and Barolo. The French went out with foie gras, tournedos rossini(more foie gras), Bordeaux and Champagne -- not Languedoc plonk and cassoulet.

By starting at the top the French were able to get people to take their simple (and delicious) peasant cuisine more seriously. That is why today American's are impressed by steak fritte and other Bistro type fair and pay premiums for it.

By starting at the bottom (especially wine-wise) it has been hard for Italians to have their restaurants taken as seriously.

It is always easier to work down than up.