If You Had To Pick One

[robyn]

do you mean english, robyn?  or do you mean modern british, which is a whole other ball game.

m

I meant the UK equivalent of "New American" cuisine - whatever it might be called. If I had to define it - it would be chefs taking what is best about their local cuisine - and modernizing it in various ways. In many parts of the US - a lot of chefs do "fusion food". E.g., in parts of Florida - it is popular to take traditional ingredients like seafood and combine with them with latin influences.

On the other hand - some chefs don't do fusion. They just take what is best about their traditional cuisine - and try to improve on it (in many cases by using the best possible freshest ingredients). It is really hard to explain - easier to know it when I see it :). I first saw evidence of that when I went to the UK in 1987. My last trip had been in 1977 - when almost all the food I ate was just this side of dreadful. But by 1987 - there were restaurants serving lighter - more inventive - more interesting - and definitely more tastey versions of British food. We had several memorable meals (I can still remember them!). The dishes didn't look like piles of glop (and taste worse) - like they did in 1977.

So that's what I'm looking for - if it exists. Or something similar. Perhaps a better phrase would be "new directions in UK cuisine". What is the difference between "English" and "Modern British"? Robyn

[Jonathan Day]

I first came across the category "Modern British" in the Time Out guides of the early 1990s, which had a separate category for "British" i.e. traditional British cookery. Some time around the turn of the century they changed "Modern British" to "Modern European". In the 2004 edition the introduction to the "British" section praises

...the many restaurants, grand and modest whose consistently high standards are helping Modern British cooking to secure its place on the culinary map.

Go figure. Nonetheless, in the 2004 listings this "British" category focuses on places like St John, Quality Chop House, Rules and the Dorchester Grill Room: traditional foods like grills, steaks, trifle, usually simply prepared.

The dishes in the "Modern European" category seem to be more eclectic and perhaps a bit lighter. Some examples, pulled more or less at random from the guide and with no endorsement meant of any of the restaurants listed:

• Spinach and parmesan tart with truffle and crème fraîche sauce (Searcy's at the Barbican)
  Duck salad with papaya (Smiths of Smithfield)
  Roast venison and parsnip mash (Axis)
  Assiette au chocolat, "three desserts highlighted by ice cream tinged with Malteasers" (Bank Aldwych)
  Grilled sardines with lemon zest and parsley (West Street)
  Roast scallops with squid, served with a white wine risotto (Harvey Nichols, The Fifth Floor)
  

I don't know how this compares with "New American cuisine".

[robyn]

...I don't know how this compares with "New American cuisine"...

Jonathan - I guess the major difference is that most new American cuisine is based on traditional domestic foods - and also the influences of immigrant groups living in particular areas of the country. It doesn't really draw on countries outside the US unless a fair number of people from those countries live in the US.

When I look at the dishes in your "modern European" category - well - a majority are "European" - from different countries in Europe - as opposed to what I think of when I think of the UK (although something like venison with parsnip mash seems British to me). Doesn't surprise me - since the geographical scale of the United States is much larger than that of Europe. I can fly 3000 miles from where I live and still be in the United States. If I headed east from the UK and flew 3000 miles - well I can't even count the number of countries in that circle. Also - I never discount the "Michelin effect". I think that the Michelin guides are wonderful for evaluating French food in France - but they tend to give undue emphasis to French food in countries outside of France - and to ignore more local cuisines. When I was much younger - I wound up eating a lot of very bad French food in Europe outside of France in reliance on Michelin guides. I would have been better off "staying local". And that's what I try to do now when I travel unless there's an exceptional French chef in the kitchen.

Anyway - I think what I am looking for is "Modern British" - the wonderful mutton that grandma would have made if she had had terrific mutton to start with (which I'm sure she didn't) - and had been a good cook:). Etc. Not British interpretations of French - or Spanish - or Italian cooking - but what good chefs are doing now with their own indigenous cuisine in an extended period of relative prosperity. I don't know how old you are - but when I first went to the UK in the 1960's and 1970's - my dominant impression was that country hadn't yet recovered from the ravages of WWII. Seems like the post-WWII prosperity which people my age in the US take for granted didn't come to the UK until about the 1980's. And all the good things about prosperity - including good cooking - started about that time.

By the way - I am enjoying the discussion in this thread. Will be out of town and off line for a few days starting tomorrow. So I'll see you all in a few days, Robyn

[Jonathan Day]

If you interpret "Modern British cuisine" as "dishes that middle-to-upper class Londoners would expect to find offered in a restaurant, or would serve at a dinner party" then the "Modern European" category Time Out provides a resonably accurate representation of this term.

None of the dishes I mentioned, with the possible exception of the grilled sardines, seemed particularly French. The influence of the mediterranean is very strong: Spain, Italy, Greece. Here I think the impact of Elizabeth David and Terence Conran may have been just as strong as the "Michelin Effect".

More traditional dishes -- shepherd's pie, steak & kidney pud, toad in the hole, etc. -- are often called "school dinner food". I've often dined at our neighbours' houses and have frequently been offered things like red peppers with anchovies, but almost never these more traditional dishes.

[tony h]

Isn't Sketch the new restaurant that is supposed to make Alain Ducasse in New York look cheap :)? I have only read a little about it - didn't get a firm impression whether the food was worth the price. Do you or anyone else have any thoughts about it? I also seem to recall that there are dining alternatives (including a bar) in addition to the main dining room. Is my recollection correct? Robyn

The food in sketch library is astonishing but not cheap - the night I went I didn't have any wine as I just couldn't it. I'd didn't have the lamb but the table next to me did & it looked amazing.

The interior is quite, what the word, different? Some hits, some misses. they took me around the build afterwords & i was a bit suprised at the "video" room - large hite room white art video projected on the walls & all these expensively dressed kensington-types looking completely out of place in what is a "young" room.

As for the library - can't wait to go back

Ace cooking on a budget - try lunch at the Capital - which is just around the corner from harrods.

[robyn]

If you interpret "Modern British cuisine" as "dishes that middle-to-upper class Londoners would expect to find offered in a restaurant, or would serve at a dinner party" then the "Modern European" category Time Out provides a resonably accurate representation of this term.

None of the dishes I mentioned, with the possible exception of the grilled sardines, seemed particularly French. The influence of the mediterranean is very strong: Spain, Italy, Greece. Here I think the impact of Elizabeth David and Terence Conran may have been just as strong as the "Michelin Effect".

More traditional dishes -- shepherd's pie, steak & kidney pud, toad in the hole, etc. -- are often called "school dinner food". I've often dined at our neighbours' houses and have frequently been offered things like red peppers with anchovies, but almost never these more traditional dishes.

Do any places other than those already mentioned do new and interesting variations on the "school dinner food"? I know that something like shepherd's pie lends itself to numerous variations - because I've seen them on menus in US restaurants and in recipes in US magazines.

By the way - I was doing some reading last night - exploring web sites. Has anyone here ever used http://www.viewlondon.co.uk to make a restaurant reservation? What were your experiences like? I've read that the concierge staff in our hotel isn't terrific - so I would prefer to make reservations myself. And quite a few restaurants I'm looking at don't have web sites of their own - so my only alternative would be international phone calls. Robyn

[robyn]

Isn't Sketch the new restaurant that is supposed to make Alain Ducasse in New York look cheap :)?  I have only read a little about it - didn't get a firm impression whether the food was worth the price.  Do you or anyone else have any thoughts about it?  I also seem to recall that there are dining alternatives (including a bar) in addition to the main dining room.  Is my recollection correct?  Robyn

The food in sketch library is astonishing but not cheap - the night I went I didn't have any wine as I just couldn't it. I'd didn't have the lamb but the table next to me did & it looked amazing.

The interior is quite, what the word, different? Some hits, some misses. they took me around the build afterwords & i was a bit suprised at the "video" room - large hite room white art video projected on the walls & all these expensively dressed kensington-types looking completely out of place in what is a "young" room.

As for the library - can't wait to go back

Ace cooking on a budget - try lunch at the Capital - which is just around the corner from harrods.

If you don't mind my asking - what is "not cheap"? I have read that the average cost is about $200 a person (which I assume is only for food) - and I also read a customer review where the customer spent 750 pounds for dinner for 2 including a modest amount of wine. Robyn

[Matthew Grant]

It would probably be pretty easy to spend £750 in there! Starters anything between £50 and £75. Mains average around £75 - 80. I think Desset was around the £50 mark. The wine list is ridiculously expensive, of course, you could always opt for a glass - a meagre £18.

Far more reasonable is the lunch deal at £48 for 3 courses. Interesting cooking clthough a little quiet on the day we were there.

Downstairs is definitely for the young and the beautiful, when dinner is over some of the chairs are folded back to become day beds and people start dancing. Video art is projected onto the pure white walls, really cool music and beautiful people everywhere who all seem to know each other. Bloody awful food though and it still set us back £180 for 2, but it was worth it just for the atmosphere although several months on this is probably lost now.

As for Borough market, I don't think it opens on Friday mornings?

Waterside Inn is not really a suburb of London, its just outside of Windsor in Bray. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it if you want a high-end meal, it is in a beautiful location, has a few (4 or 5) nice rooms and the cooking and service are outstanding. It competes well with RHR food wise and in my opinion it is better than RHR for a 'special' experience

[robyn]

I'm confused. I exchanged email with someone at Gordon Ramsey's organization today. And that person said to get a reservation at Gordon Ramsey - I must call exactly one month in advance at 9 am London time to try to make a reservation. That sounds dreary - trying to wake up at 3 in the morning my time to make a restaurant reservation. Only reason I ever wake up at 3 am is if someone winds up in the hospital. I am in the process of making further inquiries.

On the other hand - some web sites - including Top Table (think I got that web site reference from another thread started by Andy Lynes) seems to offer a reservation service for various restaurants - including Gordon Ramsey. Can I rely on these web based reservation services? If not - what's the best way to make a reservation?

Frankly - if I am interested in spending 300 or 400 pounds at a restaurant - I don't think I should have to wake up in the middle of the night to try to make a reservation. Makes me dislike the restaurant even before I get there. Robyn

[tony h]

The Ramsay thing is supply & demand - too few tables v too many punters. Even if you have the money - so what - there are quite a few others too. Shame really -- the food is that good.

As for Sketch - I spent 34 pounds on the starter & 49 pounds on the main. I could have spent less (not much, mind you). Alternatively - one start was 70 pounds as were some mains. Dessert - which I didn't have because I couldn't even finish the main course (too much bloody food!) was 28 pounds for the Grand Dessert" - 7 separate desserts costing 4 pounds each but could be ordered individually. No bottle of wine (I couldn't afford).

So I supose $200 is that starting point for dinner (but oh so worth it).

[MobyP]

Robyn - imagine being in the UK and trying to get a French Laundry reservation.

Either you could fax GR now for a date at least one month in the future, or fax them one month from the date, explaining the difficulty - or maybe someone here could call for you.

What else are borderline monomaniacs good for?

I got a lunch reservation there about ten days ahead with little difficulty.

And don't go to Sketch. If you have 500 Euros, go to Paris and have lunch at Gagnaire's place. You'll save hundreds, and it will be the meal of a lifetime.

[Jonathan Day]

Midweek lunch reservations are generally possible to get at GR RHR, if you call a few weeks in advance. Dinner reservations are significantly more difficult to obtain. RHR is well worth the hassle in securing a reservation.

[robyn]

Robyn - imagine being in the UK and trying to get a French Laundry reservation.

Either you could fax GR now for a date at least one month in the future, or fax them one month from the date, explaining the difficulty - or maybe someone here could call for you.

What else are borderline monomaniacs good for?

I got a lunch reservation there about ten days ahead with little difficulty.

And don't go to Sketch. If you have 500 Euros, go to Paris and have lunch at Gagnaire's place. You'll save hundreds, and it will be the meal of a lifetime.

Imagine being in the US and trying to get a French Laundry reservation :). The person I've exchanged email with didn't mention the possibility of a fax - either 2 or 3 months in advance - or one month in advance.

I guess I draw the line when it comes to a "hot ticket" as opposed to a "great restaurant". When a restaurant becomes a "hot ticket" - it is usually an invitation to disappointment. I have sometimes had the good fortune to make reservations at places shortly after they opened - before they got that second star or third star. Like eating at Jamin and l'Archestrate in Paris when Robuchon and Senderens were in the kitchens and they only had one star :). Flash forward a decade. My husband and I have very difficult reservations at Lucas Carton. A friend - who knows the restaurant staff - and who made the reservation - is supposed to dine with us - but becomes ill that evening. He insists we keep the reservation - and we do. We are treated to the proverbial "bum's rush" before we have to toss the name of our friend around (at which point the staff decides that we are - after all - entitled to the treatment one would expect at a 3 star Michelin restaurant).

I'd like to say I'm showing my age - but I'm sure the Robuchon's and Senderens' of the next generation are out there there now - and that I won't have to wake up at 3 am to dine with them. Just have to find them.

Hate to keep telling stories - but let me tell you one that expresses how I feel about this type of thing. My husband and I once took his parents to a nice resort hotel in the US called the Greenbriar to celebrate his father's retirement. The hotel is near Washington DC - and it attracts a lot of Washington types. On our trip - Alexander Haig (who some of you of a certain age may remember) was there. He was far from the most famous person there that weekend. There was a judicial conference in progress - so the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court - tons of other judges - and a few US Senators - were there too. I had booked a tennis lesson - but the head tennis pro called that morning to cancel. He said that Alexander Haig insisted that when he played tennis - the courts on either side of him had to be vacant. So I called the management to complain - and my tennis lesson was reinstated. And Alexander Haig didn't play - because he didn't get the vacant courts he wanted. When I asked the management about what it did - it said - some of our guests may be more famous than others - but everyone who comes here is entitled to the same wonderful treatment. I was pretty young - but I thought that was terribly classy (and very smart - there are a lot of people in the world with lots of money whose names you'd never recognize).

Paris will have to be another trip. I love Paris - and eating there - but right now my husband is so pissed at the French he won't go to France. Although I am not a big fan of President Bush - I hope that nothing happens on his current trip which will cause my husband to feel the same way about the UK. Robyn

[robyn]

It would probably be pretty easy to spend £750 in there! Starters anything between £50 and £75. Mains average around £75 - 80. I think Desset was around the £50 mark. The wine list is ridiculously expensive, of course, you could always opt for a glass - a meagre £18.

Far more reasonable is the lunch deal at £48 for 3 courses. Interesting cooking clthough a little quiet on the day we were there.

Downstairs is definitely for the young and the beautiful, when dinner is over some of the chairs are folded back to become day beds and people start dancing. Video art is projected onto the pure white walls, really cool music and beautiful people everywhere who all seem to know each other. Bloody awful food though and it still set us back £180 for 2, but it was worth it just for the atmosphere although several months on this is probably lost now.

As for Borough market, I don't think it opens on Friday mornings?

Waterside Inn is not really a suburb of London, its just outside of Windsor in Bray. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it if you want a high-end meal, it is in a beautiful location, has a few (4 or 5) nice rooms and the cooking and service are outstanding. It competes well with RHR food wise and in my opinion it is better than RHR for a 'special' experience

My husband and I frequently do lunch at a big deal restaurant where we've never dined before. Only problem is we can't eat as much at lunch as we can at dinner - and - if I have anything to drink - that's the end of my day. Sketch sounds like the kind of place where you need a couple of glasses of champagne to appreciate the glitter of the surrounding company.

On my part - I am definitely not one of the young and beautiful. Although - given those couple of glasses of champagne - I am a good dancer :).

This is a short one-week "in town" trip only. Waterside Inn will have to await another trip. I would like to note that perhaps the most special out-of-the-way visit we ever had in the UK was to Gidleigh in Devonshire. That was a long time ago - when the current owners were just starting out - and it wasn't as "posh". But I've read that it's better now than it was back then. Only thing that could make it better in my opinion would be repaving the roads leading to the hotel so there would be room for 2 cars - and no one would ever have to "back down" - and tearing down all those stone walls (we barely made it to Gidleigh with 4 non-flat tires - most of the other guests weren't as lucky). My husband and I have had many pleasant trips in the UK on "brown roads" - but those stone walls in Devonshire are the worst in my opinion! Robyn

[robyn]

The Ramsay thing is supply & demand - too few tables v too many punters. Even if you have the money - so what - there are quite a few others too. Shame really -- the food is that good.

As for Sketch - I spent 34 pounds on the starter & 49 pounds on the main. I could have spent less (not much, mind you). Alternatively - one start was 70 pounds as were some mains. Dessert - which I didn't have because I couldn't even finish the main course (too much bloody food!) was 28 pounds for the Grand Dessert" - 7 separate desserts costing 4 pounds each but could be ordered individually. No bottle of wine (I couldn't afford).

So I supose $200 is that starting point for dinner (but oh so worth it).

What is a punter?

Sketch sounds like one expensive restaurant. But - my rule of thumb when I'm looking at London these days is that if something costs X in New York - it will cost 1.5 X in London. So - using that scale - it is probably - like you say - worth it. Robyn

[robyn]

Midweek lunch reservations are generally possible to get at GR RHR, if you call a few weeks in advance. Dinner reservations are significantly more difficult to obtain. RHR is well worth the hassle in securing a reservation.

We may just wind up doing lunch there. Robyn

[Andy Lynes]

I don't think you would be disappointed by lunch, but then I have a thing for bargin lunches in London. The food may not be as complex as the evening, but the kitchen is 3 star whatever the time of day, it's a darn site cheaper, if its a nice bright winters day the room will look beautiful, and the service is still as "full on" as dinner. You could even order a la carte if you were in the mood, but I think there is something appropriate and pleasing about choosing a set lunch when it is offered. Seems almost good manners somehow.

[robyn]

I don't think you would be disappointed by lunch, but then I have a thing for bargin lunches in London. The food may not be as complex as the evening, but the kitchen is 3 star whatever the time of day, it's a darn site cheaper, if its a nice bright winters day the room will look beautiful, and the service is still as "full on" as dinner. You could even order a la carte if you were in the mood, but I think there is something appropriate and pleasing about choosing a set lunch when it is offered. Seems almost good manners somehow.

Actually - I was hoping to do what one person in this thread recommended - do the restaurant for a lunch *and* a dinner (we'll be at the Chelsea Flower show one day - which would of course be perfect for lunch).

I just won't set my alarm clock to wake me up in the middle of the night to make a dinner reservation. I will have to look at a map - and see where this place is. Reservations aren't everything - particularly when you try to stay on local time when you travel (which for us means eating dinner late in the UK). My husband and I had our Alain Ducasse experience as "walk-ins". Same thing could happen here. Robyn

[tony h]

If you have 500 Euros, go to Paris and have lunch at Gagnaire's place. You'll save hundreds, and it will be the meal of a lifetime.

I completely agree

[tony h]

What is a punter?

slang for customer