Charlie Trotter's

[inventolux]

Yeah, I think he was trying to post in iambic pentameter. 

hehe

Soba

Speak not against the haute cuisine Chef Trotter serves

Lest Bux condemn thy palate twice, with scowl

Nor criticize poussin lest thou observe

‘Tis not a fish, but faith, a sexless fowl.

Of wretched excess speak you not, china

Plates and crystal stems aren't meant for censure,

Such cosseting of a joyful diner

Oft joins the food to enhance the pleasure.

Of this debate, let one more phrase be spoke:

Viz: Different strokes for different folks

Hey busboy, you lookin' for a job? I think we could find something for you.

[Busboy]

Yeah, I think he was trying to post in iambic pentameter.  

hehe

Soba

Speak not against the haute cuisine Chef Trotter serves

Lest Bux condemn thy palate twice, with scowl

Nor criticize poussin lest thou observe

‘Tis not a fish, but faith, a sexless fowl.

Of wretched excess speak you not, china

Plates and crystal stems aren't meant for censure,

Such cosseting of a joyful diner

Oft joins the food to enhance the pleasure.

Of this debate, let one more phrase be spoke:

Viz: Different strokes for different folks

Hey busboy, you lookin' for a job? I think we could find something for you.

Are you in the greeting card industry?

[mags]

A standing O for Busboy!

[PDC]

(snip) [Having failed to answer your question, let me ask a couple anyway. As a relative newbie to find dining, where do you want to go next and where have you been recently that you liked, or didn't like. I suppose it would be interesting to know where you live and what's available in your area.

My background (short 'n'sweet) is as follows (and I will post my initial query to a new topic in the general food area).

I live in NYC (OK, Staten Island if that counts) and the path to my interest in good food came via my interest in good beer. I'm in my mid-30's, and have been a "beer snob" since I was legally old enough to drink. My approach to finding places to eat was therefore dictated in part by the availability of good beer which led me to lots of pub or brewpub-type places. (Side note: it is interesting how difficult it is to get a decent beer in "fancy" restaurants).

The other approach I've used is to find local, non-touristy places and especially ethnic restaurants that are actually frequented by people of the same ethinic background as the food the place serves. So, when I travel I'm invariably drawn to hole-in-the-wall type places in various Chinatowns, little Italys, little Vietnams, whatever. Growing up on Staten Island I ate in what I've recently found out are called "red sauce" joints, the best of which were (and are in a few cases) family-run businesses that had been around a while.

On the "celebrity" end of things, I've eaten at Morimoto in Philly and NY's Les Halles in the past six months and enjoyed both immensely. Neither qualifies as "fine dining" in the sense that Trotter's does, it seems. Another memorable meal I had this year was at Jacques-Imo's in New Orleans.

So I guess I'm hopelessly middle-to-lowbrow.

So, where should I eat next? (BTW - sorry for wandering WAY OT, but figured I'd post a response before moving the topic).

[Lady T]

I'm just an observer fascinated by the little religious war that has broken out between the fine diners and the populists, who finds both merit and absurdity on both sides.

Religious war? People of powerful personal beliefs feeling driven to contention, hmmm?

Heh. All right, I'm in a mood for the absurd: Imagine a conflict of gourmandise taken to the streets. Think of the intense, vivid public debates about port-wine reductions versus plain pan gravies, or Plugra butter versus simple Land-O-Lakes unsalted. Innocent civilians forced -- forced! -- to sample and judge competing risotto recipes by wild-eyed savants in Bragard jackets waving impeccably sharp ceramic knives.

More yet: blameless hard-working chefs, hijacked by ferocious farmers determined to see their microgreens, and only theirs, reach the summit of the chefs' dainty presentations. Desperate midnight negotiations by owners of prominent new buildings to get just the right chefs working in just the right fashionable Tihany settings.

(Damn. That last sounds way too close to the new Time-Warner Building for comfort.)

Picket lines outside ADNY with signs reading "No More Fancy Food!" and "Give Us Meat Loaf Any Old Time!"

Drive-by wine tastings! The horror!

I obviously need to get another cup of coffee. Digression ends.

Edited November 13, 2003 by Lady T (log)

[MatthewB]

Imagine a conflict of gourmandise taken to the streets.

Democracy is in the streets!

*chants* The whole world is watching! The whole world is watching!

[Bux]

Side note: it is interesting how difficult it is to get a decent beer in "fancy" restaurants.

Most all "fancy" restaurants in NY, and I expect in much of the US, are wine centric. I suppose this has a lot to do with how French food is perceived in relation to German or traditional British food. In Belgium, where they make very little wine, but great beers, I've found the "fancy," "fine," and "serious" restaurants are also wine and French cuisine centric. I recall having beer for most lunches and wine for fancy dinners. I have seen menus where fancy French food is paired with fine beers, but it's a rare thing. For what it's worth, I think an interest in beer as a fine beverage is growing in this country. A natural drawback to beer as a food drink, is that it's rather filling in relation to wine.

[Bux]

Personally I couldn't care less about a person's celebrity status,

I didn't think that was an issue here, other than that the restaurant's fame will bring more customers, but that's been true as long as there have been restaurants.

Why does anybody have to pretend to be "an experienced diner", who is in the know of the current trend in food or wine?

Has anyone suggested one should pretend to be an experienced diner. I haven't seen a post to that effect. What I've read are the suggestions that an experienced diner will get more out of the meal by being able to better appreciate it. That's an entirely different matter and one that values education and experience in general. I've also read comments suggesting one leave one's pretenses at home and be honest in your reaction to, and communication with, the staff. Here's an example:

Interesting series of posts here. Yes, Trotters can be intimidating - but, I too would have to agree with Gordon - admit up front that you are inexperienced and the staff will bend over backward to make you feel comfortable.

Advice from those familiar with CT is that one should not pretend anything. In my opinion, the greatest enjoyment of any fine restaurant will come to those who approach the food and service honestly without pretense or prejudice. If a restaurant requires pretense from a diner, it's not a great restaurant.

[MatthewB]

Imagine a conflict of gourmandise taken to the streets.

And again . . .

Our work is guided by the sense that we may be the last generation in the experiment with living. But we are a minority--the vast majority of our people regard the temporary equilibriums of our society and world as eternally functional parts. In this is perhaps the outstanding paradox; we ourselves are imbued with urgency, yet the message of our society is that there is no viable alternative to the present. Beneath the reassuring tones of the politicians, beneath the common opinion that America will "muddle through," beneath the stagnation of those who have closed their minds to the future, is the pervading feeling that there simply are no alternatives, that our times have witnessed the exhaustion not only of Utopias, but of any new departures as well. Feeling the press of complexity upon the emptiness of life, people are fearful of the thought that at any moment things might be thrust out of control. They fear change itself, since change might smash whatever invisible framework seems to hold back chaos for them now. For most Americans, all crusades are suspect, threatening. The fact that each individual sees apathy in his fellows perpetuates the common reluctance to organize for change. The dominant institutions are complex enough to blunt the minds of their potential critics, and entrenched enough to swiftly dissipate or entirely repel the energies of protest and reform, thus limiting human expectancies. Then, too, we are a materially improved society, and by our own improvements we seem to have weakened the case for further change.

[Bux]

Not once has anyone who appreciates the best restaurants ever said that is the only place to get good food and don't go anywhere or you are being swindled. Not once has anyone said to not ever darken the doors of our favorite temple of haute cuisine. It is actually the opposite- just like appreciating any art that is full of subtletly and grace, it does take time and exposure to gain maximum pleasure from it.

I would agree that many posts have gone from support of Adam's original post, to an attack of CT and that some of these posts seem to claim they are refuting things that have not been said.

[mags]

Ahhh, the dulcet rhythms of my misspent youth. That would be...what? The Port Huron Statement?

[MatthewB]

Not once has anyone who appreciates the best restaurants ever said that is the only place to get good food and don't go anywhere or you are being swindled. Not once has anyone said to not ever darken the doors of our favorite temple of haute cuisine. It is actually the opposite- just like appreciating any art that is full of subtletly and grace, it does take time and exposure to gain maximum pleasure from it.

I would agree that many posts have gone from support of Adam's original post, to an attack of CT and that some of these posts seem to claim they are refuting things that have not been said.

Agreed, Bux.

Which ultimately leads us to this . . .

The question whether objective truth can be attributed to human thinking is not a question of theory but is a practical question. Humanity must prove

the truth -- i.e. the reality and power, the this-sidedness of human thinking in practice. The dispute over the reality or non-reality of thinking that is isolated from practice is a purely *scholastic* question.

[tanabutler]

    A standing O for Busboy!

Boy, howdy!

[Zeb A]

sexless chicken was my nickname in high school.

Perhaps you should make that your new signature. Funniest line in this thread by far!!

Wow. How funny. McCord's nickname at work was "sexy chicken." Small world.

PS: What an entertaining thread.

Edit to add: McCord=Varmint

Edited November 13, 2003 by Zeb A (log)

[ExtraMSG]

Of this debate, let one more phrase be spoke:

Viz: Different strokes for different folks

Even a proper couplet, summing up nicely....Willy would be proud.

Our work is guided by the sense that we may be the last generation in the experiment with living. But we are a minority--the vast majority of our people regard the temporary equilibriums of our society and world as eternally functional parts. In this is perhaps the outstanding paradox; we ourselves are imbued with urgency, yet the message of our society is that there is no viable alternative to the present. Beneath the reassuring tones of the politicians, beneath the common opinion that America will "muddle through," beneath the stagnation of those who have closed their minds to the future, is the pervading feeling that there simply are no alternatives, that our times have witnessed the exhaustion not only of Utopias,......

MathewB, you're taking the release of The Matrix III way too seriously.

[SobaAddict70]

Imagine a conflict of gourmandise taken to the streets.

I think a better matchup would be if CT went mano-a-mano vs. The Iron Chef.

Talk about "excellence".

Soba

Edited November 13, 2003 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[Busboy]

I can never tell which knife to use when I'm at a formal streetfight?

[Lady T]

Busboy:

The white ceramic coordinates well with a jacket and checks, as I recall; the Wusthof would be for less formal occasions.

And you use the cleaver when the job's got to get done fast.

My money's still on CT, Soba -- he ain't big, but damn he's intense.

[ronnie_suburban]

I've also had a friend who smoked weed in Charlie Trotter's bathroom, so they aren't watching you that close.

My newest hero!

=R=

[ronnie_suburban]

I have not had the opportunity to eat there, though I very much would like to. 

I'm just an observer fascinated by the little religious war that has broken out between the fine diners and the populists, who finds both merit and absurdity on both sides.  And who wanted to see if I could still write in iambic pentameter if an emergency arose.

Emergency or not, it was brilliant and moving.

=R=

[Lady T]

I've also had a friend who smoked weed in Charlie Trotter's bathroom, so they aren't watching you that close.

My newest hero!

=R=

Hmm. Imagine what the pastry staff at Trio's or CT's could do with a batch of Toklas brownies.

Better yet: imagine what they'd do after eating a batch of Toklas brownies.

[MatthewB]

The revolution will not be televised.

[mags]

The revolution will not be televised.

But....then how will the whole world be watching?

At any rate, this thread has proved Mao wrong: Revolution is SO a dinner party.

[Lady T]

The revolution will not be televised.

But....then how will the whole world be watching?

We won't need to watch. We'll be doing instead.

[bourdain]

I can never tell which knife to use when I'm at a formal streetfight?

I always recommend a curved butcher's scimitar. Its menacing shape and size seem to have a discouraging effect on potential opponents. My one experience yanking one out of my kit (against multiple aggressors) ended in a grudging--but injury-free--detente. Sometimes it's good to be a chef. You can carry knives everywhere.