Charlie Trotter's

[Varmint]

This menu consisted of 9 courses of nothing but potatoes, each course cooked in a different manner. Needless to say, we did not partake.

My God, I'd fly my 9 year old son and I up to Chicago to do that, as the eldest L'il Varmint is a huge potato freak!

[SobaAddict70]

Would you disagree with the statement that “You need to be trained to enjoy good wine?”

Actually, yes I would. In fact, I offer myself as Exhibit A in your gallery of evidence.

I can't drink wine, not because I don't like it, but because I have a genetic inability to properly metabolize alcohol. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate a good wine when I have one -- and I've sampled really really small samples in the past, sometimes within the presence of a few eGulleteers. When I have enjoyed it, I prefer whites over reds and fruity/sweet over dry. But that's just me.

Now, does this mean I can't appreciate fine dining? Pish, of course not. It means I can't possibly experience the fullest nuance that would be available if I were able to drink wine. But by no means does it mean that I am a country rube in a cosmopolitan palace, at least with regards to the sort of experience we're talking about.

Now, I don't know about the silent art of sending signals, so I suppose I'm learning as I go along. I've always found it helpful to verbally express to the waitstaff either my interest in whatever it is that's in the offing, my relative inexperience, and my inability to drink.

Soba

[tcizma]

I chose LC and Arpege as the two places that have offered, and delivered, the quality of food and experience that have resulted in my feeling justified in forking over 175 smackeroonees to eat dinner. Anybody want to tell me that Trotter or any other American chef can get the same quality of ingredients that can be obtained by a chef in France? Let's see... 175 at Trotters... 175 at Arpege... hmmmmm.... now 75 at Trotters... ok.

First of all, I want to know how you got out of Arpege for $175 ? Last I visited was closer to $800 for the two of us. ( granted, good wine)

There is plenty of top notch product available to american chefs who have the means and desire to obtain them. ( Chuck is in that category) There certain items that are specific to the geographic location ( Brittany lobsters for example) But dedicated producers and growers all over the United States are offering up items comparable in quality to anyone, anywhere.

[jbraynolds]

Vis the potato issue, I was once served a potato and leek soup at Trotter's and hidden underneath it, as a first layer/base, was about 2 oz. of caviar. Their idea of a potato menu wouldn't exactly be peasantish, I'll assure you.

[BigboyDan]

Two for for lunch at Arpege with a modest Riesling - 230 euros total per person. I worked in French kitchens for many years - European products blow the rest of the world away. I'm not a Francophile; just been there, done that.

edited for typo

Edited November 12, 2003 by BigboyDan (log)

[slkinsey]

I can't drink wine, not because I don't like it, but because I have a genetic inability to properly metabolize alcohol.

Soba, this is a little OT, but I assume this is due to the fact that your body doesn't produce sufficient alcohol dehydrogenase (an important enzyme the body uses to break down alcohol)?

Given the fact that this genetic disposition is quite common among the huge worldwide population of Asian descent, I wonder if there is some kind of alcohol dehydrogenase pill one can buy. After all, it's fairly easy to find lactase pills, and the worldwide population of people with alcohol dehydrogenase deficiency has got to be much larger than the (actually quite small) number with serious lactase deficiency.

Have you ever heard of anything like this?

[GordonCooks]

Would you disagree with the statement that “You need to be trained to enjoy good wine?”

Actually, yes I would. In fact, I offer myself as Exhibit A in your gallery of evidence.

I can't drink wine, not because I don't like it, but because I have a genetic inability to properly metabolize alcohol. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate a good wine when I have one -- and I've sampled really really small samples in the past, sometimes within the presence of a few eGulleteers. When I have enjoyed it, I prefer whites over reds and fruity/sweet over dry. But that's just me.

Now, does this mean I can't appreciate fine dining? Pish, of course not. It means I can't possibly experience the fullest nuance that would be available if I were able to drink wine. But by no means does it mean that I am a country rube in a cosmopolitan palace, at least with regards to the sort of experience we're talking about.

Now, I don't know about the silent art of sending signals, so I suppose I'm learning as I go along. I've always found it helpful to verbally express to the waitstaff either my interest in whatever it is that's in the offing, my relative inexperience, and my inability to drink.

Soba

Try reading the context.

My position the entire time has been that even thought adrober did not have a positive experience - it's entirely possible that he could reverse that opinion in the future.

-Did he enjoy Charlie Trotter's ? no

-Did Charlie Trotter's fulfill their obligation to him ? I don't know

-Can a gourmet not enjoy Charlie Trotter's? yes

-Is it possible for a gourmet to change their mind? I say YES

If Adrober chooses not to return to Charlie Trotters' due to his experience, that's fine.

Edited November 12, 2003 by GordonCooks (log)

[SobaAddict70]

I would like to make two points:

1.  I disagree that one has to be expert for their views to be valid.  I think any carefully written account of an experience, regardless of how lofty the subject matter, can be worthwhile.  True, there are critics who proselytize and seek to elevate with didactic prose, but the better ones, in my opinion, are reactionaries.  If a non-Springsteen fan went to a Springsteen concert and wrote a thoughtful critique of it on a Springsteen fan board, that would probably be more helpful to Springsteen fans than someone simply writing "Springsteen rocks!"  And, call me crazy, but I would rather read a Bux review of dinner at TGI Friday's than Bux's praise of dinner at Le Bernadain because it would be more honest.  Similarly, even if my dinner review wasn't expert (Poussain is a sexless chicken? How weird!) it was genuine.  And I'd rather be an unsophisticated truth-teller than a pretentious poser who would moan with pleasure if duck feces were presented elegantly before him.

2.  I reread my piece in search of mockery and found it only in one place: my description of the waiter.  I can only say, in my defense, that sometimes mockery is warranted.  George W. Bush says "nuc-u-lar" and brings upon himself the countless imitations and parodies.  Our waiter was a robot.  If I had a video camera that night and later played his performance for roomfuls of unbiased specatators, they would howl with laughter at his ridiculousness.

I am not even arguing that he was a dying relic of a withered cultural institution: he was actually quite young.  All I am saying is that he--as an individual--was overly mannered, completely out of tune with his audience and disturbingly intense in an already tense atmosphere.  If that's great service, then count me out.

Hear, hear re #1. (Apologies for the late quotes on page 9 of this fascinating thread as I am a late comer. I clearly need to get out more. )

Obviously there's a difference between the waitstaff at Gramercy Tavern (no temple of haute cuisine, but impressive for the service factor) and CT.

But, I suppose, there are different levels of service vis-a-vis a restaurant such as GT and a restaurant such as CT, so what passes for impressive service at GT may not at CT precisely because the two restaurants are not in the same league as each other. (Full discloure: I have never been to CT but it remains on one of my "go to" list of places in my lifetime. I am 32, not terribly experienced in terms of haute cuisine but well-versed enough in the realm of good food and dining out that I can recognize when an experience is merely mediocre as opposed to stunningly great.) So your impression of the waiter being "a robot" and "completely out of tune with his audience" is not off the mark -- at least with respect to someone who is perhaps more inclined towards the GT level of service as opposed to the all-encompassing level that restaurants such as JG, ADNY and CT seek to provide.

edit: There is also the issue of expectation and experience. Others have mentioned it on this thread so far so I will not repeat their statements. You came to CT with a set of expectations drawn on past experience, but that did not approach those that a patron of CT might be reasonably expected to have. This is not a put-down or a criticism. It is an inference I am making based on my reading of your post -- please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. As you gain more experience in your pursuit of fine dining, your criteria and your expectations will evolve, so that if in the future, you are presented with the opportunity to experience a restaurant such as CT or one of like caliber, you will be able to appreciate it on different terms than before.

Soba

Edited November 12, 2003 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[SobaAddict70]

Try reading the context.

My position the entire time has been that even thought adrober did not have a positive experience - it's entirely possible that he could reverse that opinion in the future.

-Did he enjoy Charlie Trotter's ? no

-Did Charlie Trotter's fulfill their obligation to him ? I don't know

-Can a gourmet not enjoy Charlie Trotter's? yes

-Is it possible for a gourmet to change their mind? I say YES

If Adrober chooses not to return to Charlie Trotters' due to his experience, that's fine.

I read the context and got it.

My point is that I need to be trained to enjoy wine.

Simple. I don't make it a habit of drinking wine because of my aforementioned problem, and I need to be trained to appreciate the complexities that wine can bring to a good meal. I am well aware that I'm missing that part of the equation, but a little at a loss as to how to proceed. I am cognizant that there are greater experiences to be had with regards to reds, roses, port, and other types of wines other than the normal fruity whites I find so appealing. That's all. No hidden agenda here. There are people who, like me, are unable to appreciate wine (but perhaps for different reasons). That in and of itself shouldn't bar us from being able to appreciate fine dining.

Getting back on topic, Adrober is by his description an aspiring gourmand. And this is his first but perhaps not his last CT experience. If he is an aspiring gourmand by any stretch of the imagination, he'll probably want to go to some place like Chez Panisse, Fat Duck or El Bulli sometime soon. He'll train his palate and his awareness to appreciate elements which are present at a place like CT but may not necessarily be present at a place like Babbo. We don't know for instance, that he's ever had an experience at JG or ADNY, but I'm sure he will...eventually. I think the important thing is that the pseudo-review, post or whatever was a forthright assessment by someone who's taking first steps into the world of fine dining and shouldn't be overly critiqued. Offer some help, give some advice, but don't shoot the messenger for delivering the goods. And if everyone will have taken something away worthwhile from this thread, why so much the better.

Side note (not addressed to GC):

As to the reference that "religion" was introduced into the thread, I read it more as a reference to a "cultural value" (as in Jewish the culture, not Judaism the belief system).

Soba

Edited November 12, 2003 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[SobaAddict70]

Soba, this is a little OT, but I assume this is due to the fact that your body doesn't produce sufficient alcohol dehydrogenase (an important enzyme the body uses to break down alcohol)?

Given the fact that this genetic disposition is quite common among the huge worldwide population of Asian descent, I wonder if there is some kind of alcohol dehydrogenase pill one can buy. After all, it's fairly easy to find lactase pills, and the worldwide population of people with alcohol dehydrogenase deficiency has got to be much larger than the (actually quite small) number with serious lactase deficiency.

Have you ever heard of anything like this?

Sam, can't say I ever have.

Lactase supplements and I = Bad News. I tried some a while back and had severe cramping for a couple of days. Not again. I'm not as intolerant as someone like Jason for example; more like mild intolerance (i.e., no milk -- but cheese is acceptable.)

But it's worth looking into.

I raised the point because there are categories of people (of which I am one but not the only one I'm sure) who cannot hope to experience the nuances of fine dining at its best for reasons they cannot control. In my case, it's inability to drink wine. I'm not sure if in the past when I've dined out, if my ordering mineral water sent any sort of signal, but it's something I prefer to verbally express to the waitstaff by way of explanation. This "art" of signalling that Bux referred to earlier is something I'm not aware of...until now.

Soba

[WHT]

Some people enjoy things above and beyond the basic. I wouldn't call them fools.

This is turning into a warped version of The emperors New Robes. While some valid points have been entered by both camps this it seems to digress into a morass of snobbery from both ends.

It seems on one end we have people that want to elevate CT to the level of Buddha; fine I just choose not to visit that shrine. Others that seem to get price confused with quality along with discount seekers, thrill mongers and the usual cast of suspects.

If you didn’t like the meal, the service or any aspect, guess what? No amount of badgering, berating or belittling is going to change the O P I N I O N. Unfortunately we all know people that think all-you-can-eat is the way to go as well as the people that have other strong opinions on what makes for a great meal.

[slkinsey]

Lactase supplements and I = Bad News.  I tried some a while back and had severe cramping for a couple of days.  Not again.  I'm not as intolerant as someone like Jason for example; more like mild intolerance (i.e., no milk -- but cheese is acceptable.)

That is indicative of an actual lactose problem as opposed to a casein allergy or other milk-related allergy. People who can tolerate cheese but not milk are the ones who are really and truly lactose intolerant. I say this because most cheeses contain little or no lactose (>95% of the lactose is washed away with the whey, and the tiny amount remaining is consumed by the bacteria that ferment the cheese). Cramping associated with the consumption of lactose is caused by bacteria in the gut which eat the unreduced lactose and produce gas as a fermentation byproduct. Lactase pills should not, in and of themselves, cause cramping. However, in someone with extreme lactase deficiency, it is possible that no reasonable dosage would suffice.

As for alcohol dehydrogenase and/or mitochondrial aldehyde dehydrogenase pills to help you metabolize alcohol properly... it's something you might consider talking to your doctor about. Obviously you don't want something to help you go out to the bars every night. But something that might help you have the occasional glass and a half of wine with a big dinner sounds entirely reasonable and not outside the realm of possibility.

[PDC]

As someone who's a relative newbie to "fine dining", and having gone through all nine pages of this, I have a question: How does one educate oneself to appreciate a place like Trotter's? There was a post somewhere along the line that said (and forgive me if I misinterpreted this), that you have to "work up the ladder" to a place like that. So...how do you do that? What would be a list of say, ten restaurants in the US that one could use to refine one's tastebuds? Or maybe the regional coordinators could all chime in with ten in each of their regions?

Maybe this should be a whole new topic somewhere: "Fine Dining For Newbies". The experts on this board (and clearly there are a ton) could step us newbies through do's and do not's in interaction with service, ordering (or not ordering) wines and drinks (I had no idea ordering a cocktail before a meal was a major faux pas, for example), how to find out what a restaurants top-of-the-line dishes are so you can maximize your dining pleasure (I know, "reviews", but what's a good archive or source? Not Zagat from what I've read on this site), and, just as importantly, what not to order (read Kitchen Confidential, got the "no fish on Mondays" thing)

Whew, sorry for the run-on sentence.

If something could be put together as well as the EGCI has been, it would be an amazing resource to those of us who want to jump in to super-high-end dining but are a bit intimidated (rightfully so too, judging from some of the stuff on this thread).

-Dave

[ExtraMSG]

As someone who's a relative newbie to "fine dining", and having gone through all nine pages of this, I have a question: How does one educate oneself to appreciate a place like Trotter's? There was a post somewhere along the line that said (and forgive me if I misinterpreted this), that you have to "work up the ladder" to a place like that.

It's very rare that people take to anything right off. Smoking and drinking are perfect examples. People hack the first time they take a drag on a cigarette, they squint and pucker the first time they swig some alcohol. But then, for whatever reason, they *choose* to "educate" themselves. Some time later they're talking about tobacco grown hither and thither, cigars rolled here and there, grapes from this region or that region, etc. The product hasn't changed, their relationship to the product has.

Take your grandmother to Thai food. Take a 7 year old child to Indian food. See how they react. There are very few flavors we have a natural affinity for and it's tough to prove that we have that natural affinity. Our body is meant to hunger for sugar, fat, charred proteins, and salty things. We're wired to dislike bitter things. Our natural affinities, then, might lead us to eat candy, potato chips, and grilled steaks. But they certainly don't lead us towards many of the "finer" things. It takes time to appreciate them, just like it takes time, for most, to appreciate smoking and drinking.

And that's just a matter of taste. There are plenty of other issues such as being able to appreciate the creativity of a dish, the interesting use of ingredients, textures, techniques, etc. That takes experience, usually, or education.

But basically, in *anything* someone must be acculturated into a system of thought, into a mini-culture, that gives them new rules of judgment that they can then use to apply to their experiences. It doesn't matter if it's for fine food or fine wine, bbq or bar hopping, Mexican food or Mexican folkdance. To appreciate it from within the system that created it and appreciated it to begin with, one must become part of that system to some degree. They must be educated.

[tanabutler]

Just coming in after having taken the better part of an hour to read this entire thread and compile notes...

Tra Vigne in St Helena, where I used to eat regularly has provided quite possibly the worst service I've ever experienced and I'm certain it was because the waiter that day decided I did not belong there.  Maybe having had the value section of the wine list pointed out to me twice while I was reading the list wasn't exactly the best way to start things off...

I can relate to this. We stopped at Tra Vigne for lunch one Sunday afternoon, and left almost immediately. The hostess was a sheer icicle of a human being, and the atmosphere was easily the most pretentious, unwelcoming I've ever seen—it made Beverly Hills seem like Harlan, Kentucky. The staff brought pretension to an art form. Hello? You're a hostess. (No, we weren't dressed like the Clampetts.)

first i'd like to nit pick since someone else decided to correct the spelling of palate...it is gall (as in bile, gall bladder) not gaul (as in France)...it just galls me that people do these things

And "nitpick" is one word.

Which brings me to the point I was going to make. I just got the eGullet newsletter in my in-box. FatGuy says:

one thing that really stands out about eGullet is that every month our site sees dozens of message-board posts that contain more information, better writing, and sometimes even better photography than much of what passes for journalism in the print-media universe.

I can't help but be a proofreader—it's my nature (and it's been my profession). I would like to suggest that folks first use a word processing program with a spellchecker to craft their posts. I don't mean to be a snob about it—anyone can make a typo (thank heavens for "edit" buttons). But there are so many posts in this thread that are riddled with misspellings, bad punctuation, erroneous use of apostrophes (its/it's), and so on. I am probably not unique in saying that I have an instant response to such mistakes. They are like spinach on the teeth. Forgive me, but I think it needed to be said. If you want to be respected for what you write, write well and write properly. Eschew capitalization if you must, but in the name of your English teacher, wield your apostrophes with accuracy. It will only enhance eGullet's luster.

I gotta go with Mick Jagger on this one: "fuck 'em if they can't take a joke." 

If they can't take a joke, I don't wanna fuck 'em. And you can quote me—that's been my invisible tagline for twenty years.

We know more about Adam than about the restaurant or the food. That is why it is a pseudo-review.

I didn't regard it as a review, since it was a highly personalized account of his experience. I read his bewilderment, and I believe he exhibited a certain willingness to being clued in, as well as some youthful ignorance (not to be confused with stupidity). I am a little in disbelief at those who would rebuke Adam for posting his experience by decrying his lack of sophistication, education, or his "gauling pallette."

I interpreted his post as a "comedy piece," too, but I don't think his being lighthearted should detract from the validity of his opinion. Just because he's not as serious as other members (myself included) doesn't mean he should be given demerits

Good on you, ballast_regime.

Emily, your entire post is wonderful and insightful. Beautifully done. Good luck with your professional endeavors as a writer. (Your description of Charlie Trotter's mannerisms are particularly compelling.)

As far as poussin goes, I think I got confused: sexless chicken was my nickname in high school.

I admire your spirit, Adam, and your openness. Nothing you said would deter me from eating at Charlie Trotter's, and nothing you said would encourage me, either. I am able to read about your experiences without trying to assess your skills as a food reviewer, because it doesn't seem to me that that is what you were intending.

(But you gotta give up on the Sondheim...Thus spake a Marietta girl.)

And yeah, I say "more cats in the temple." You can borrow mine. I've got three.

[tanabutler]

Maybe this should be a whole new topic somewhere: "Fine Dining For Newbies". The experts on this board (and clearly there are a ton) could step us newbies through do's and do not's in interaction with service, ordering (or not ordering) wines and drinks (I had no idea ordering a cocktail before a meal was a major faux pas, for example), how to find out what a restaurants top-of-the-line dishes are so you can maximize your dining pleasure (I know, "reviews", but what's a good archive or source? Not Zagat from what I've read on this site), and, just as importantly, what not to order (read Kitchen Confidential, got the "no fish on Mondays" thing)

Whew, sorry for the run-on sentence.

If something could be put together as well as the EGCI has been, it would be an amazing resource to those of us who want to jump in to super-high-end dining but are a bit intimidated (rightfully so too, judging from some of the stuff on this thread).

Cross-post.

I just wanted to admire this again.

Great idea and nicely said, Dave.

[cshea]

Adrober, I thought your post was fabulous! Very, very entertaining . . . I'm actually a fan of CT but sometimes it's just not your or the restaurant's night. And sometimes it's not the night or your lack of experience . . . sometimes the restaurant/chef is just not for you. It may be that CT is in that category for you and, despite suggestions to the contrary, that's okay. At least you have an opinion. I actually can't stand Daniel in NYC. That's just the way it is . . . will likely never go back. My friends argue with me about it but I've never been impressed by the food and I find the atmosphere oppressive. I don't spend much time feeling guilty about it - I just head to Blue Hill . . .

Just keep going to restaurants. I like all the suggestions on the thread about how to break the ice with waiters when you're a newbie . . . it's much better than trying to fake experience and more often than not they'll take pity on you and give you some free stuff! Much better than getting stuck drinking Ame!

[tanabutler]

I just head to Blue Hill . . .

Always a good idea. Mmmmmmmmmm.

[MatthewB]

I just head to Blue Hill . . .

Always a good idea. Mmmmmmmmmm.

Well, since this thread somewhat bounds on dining in Chicago, Blue Hill isn't much of a choice.

So, bad idea.

[maggiethecat]

I just head to Blue Hill . . .

Always a good idea. Mmmmmmmmmm.

Well, since this thread somewhat bounds on dining in Chicago, Blue Hill isn't much of a choice.

So, bad idea.

Shall we head to Spring, perhaps?

[MatthewB]

Shall we head to Spring, perhaps?

If dear Adam had dined at Spring rather than CT, we wouldn't be in this fine mess.

[Bux]

As someone who's a relative newbie to "fine dining", and having gone through all nine pages of this, I have a question:  How does one educate oneself to appreciate a place like Trotter's?  There was a post somewhere along the line that said (and forgive me if I misinterpreted this), that you have to "work up the ladder" to a place like that.  So...how do you do that?  What would be a list of say, ten restaurants in the US that one could use to refine one's tastebuds?  Or maybe the regional coordinators could all chime in with ten in each of their regions?

Probably worth a new topic as you suggest, but let me put in a few words here. There is no single way, nor would I assume everyone is going to appreciate Trotter's. There is no list of ten restaurants and if there was one, it might well be a different list for each potential diner. Let's step back and assume not everyone wants to appreciate Trotter's. I think it's a safe assumption. Then we could ask why any prospective diner might want to appreciate Trotters. I'd like to assume no one who didn't want to appreciate it would go in the first place, but the possibility is there that people go because of social peer pressure and that they go in the hope of not appreciating Trotter's, but in the hope of finding reason not to go again. People do strange things and I don't need to be seen as picking on anyone by stating the fact that people do weird things.

I suppose all the restaurants you've already eaten in will have a great role in determining the next ten, but as has already been said, sometimes you might have to go several times to get it. Not all things worth appreciating are immediately comprehensible. I know people who have come away from art history courses with a greater appreciation for the works discussed. The same goes for people who attend wine courses. There's something to be said for education.

I never made a conscious decision to appreciate fine food. What I ate and what I read just led me in certain directions and soon enough I was eating in restaurants I would have argued I could not afford. Values of that sort are very flexible. As for going back to a restaurant I didn't understand the first time, it's probably happened to me, but more likely at the low (price) end of ethnic eating. Why did I go back if I didn't like it the first time? Curiosity.

On many levels I'd argue that food in high places is no better than food in inexpensive restaurants, or places that might not even merit the term "restaurant." It's the same argument I'd use to argue that the paintings in the museum are no prettier than the pictures in your favorite magazine or those on your desk or piano. Some people accept the prices paid for these paintings. Others deride the museums, especially when they use public funds to buy "works of art."

Having failed to answer your question, let me ask a couple anyway. As a relative newbie to find dining, where do you want to go next and where have you been recently that you liked, or didn't like. I suppose it would be interesting to know where you live and what's available in your area.

[Bux]

I actually can't stand Daniel in NYC.  That's just the way it is . . . will likely never go back.  My friends argue with me about it but I've never been impressed by the food and I find the atmosphere oppressive.  I don't spend much time feeling guilty about it - I just head to Blue Hill . . .

There's no accounting for taste. In light of my preceeding post, I'd note that Daniel was largely the restaurant that trained me to appreciate Blue Hill. Mike Anthony worked at Daniel and Dan Barber shows his respect to that kitchen as well. The food is lighter and appears simpler at Blue Hill, but I think it's equally as complex, just in a gentler style. The atmospheres are different and I enjoy them for the difference. The food is the draw at both and my wife and I have used them almost interchangeably for meals we consider important.

[Bux]

Side note (not addressed to GC):

As to the reference that "religion" was introduced into the thread, I read it more as a reference to a "cultural value" (as in Jewish the culture, not Judaism the belief system).

I like to believe individuals have values, not cultures. It avoids stereotyping. I believe the issue was about needing to find intrinsic value.

[SobaAddict70]

Side note (not addressed to GC):

As to the reference that "religion" was introduced into the thread, I read it more as a reference to a "cultural value" (as in Jewish the culture, not Judaism the belief system).

I like to believe individuals have values, not cultures. It avoids stereotyping. I believe the issue was about needing to find intrinsic value.

And he explained it in his own way. Perhaps a poor choice of words, but that's the way I read it. He was referring to the perception that many people have of a deeply held belief, value, whatever -- mistaken or stereotyped as it may be -- of people belonging to a certain segment of society who identify themselves as "Jewish", not the religion as was interpreted by another person elsewhere in the thread.

I suppose that this is another line of debate that we can go mano-a-mano another time.

Soba

Edited November 12, 2003 by SobaAddict70 (log)