Q&A -- Sourdough Bread

[SethG]

oraklet, I can try to give you a little guidance, since Jack doesn't appear to be in the building.

A temperature in the 18-20 C (64-68 F) range seems low to me. I don't personally use temperatures as high as Jack does, but a lot of authorities recommend a temperature at least in the low seventies F.

You're also using a lot of whole wheat flour, which will give a certain bitterness to the taste of your completed loaves. It's hard for me to say whether this is the phenomenon you're experiencing as "sourness," or whether it's something else. If I knew more about how you are feeding your starter and making your loaves, I might have a little more insight. The amount of starter you're using for your loaves is not too high.

As for the differences in the structure of your loaves, I'd guess that it isn't the slashing. More likely the differences are the result of how much your dough is being deflated as you form your individual loaves.

[oraklet]

oraklet, I can try to give you a little guidance, since Jack doesn't appear to be in the building.

A temperature in the 18-20 C (64-68 F) range seems low to me.  I don't personally use temperatures as high as Jack does, but a lot of authorities recommend a temperature at least in the low seventies F. 

You're also using a lot of whole wheat flour, which will give a certain bitterness to the taste of your completed loaves.  It's hard for me to say whether this is the phenomenon you're experiencing as "sourness," or whether it's something else.  If I knew more about how you are feeding your starter and making your loaves, I might have a little more insight.  The amount of starter you're using for your loaves is not too high.

As for the differences in the structure of your loaves, I'd guess that it isn't the slashing.  More likely the differences are the result of how much your dough is being deflated as you form your individual loaves.

←

seth, thanks for your answer.

the temp: well, my only alternative is the oven, with the light on. but i thought that the higher temp would result in at more sour dough? (and it certainly is rather sour, and not bitter in any unpleasant way)

i haven't fed my starter yet after baking, as it's quite new (should i?). it was started with c.125 ml water and 100 g whole wheat. next day: the same amounts. it reacted very fast. third feeding was 150 ml water and 100 g flour. very lively when i decided to use it. the dough fermented, first at c. 20 C for 4 h., until almost doubled, then was put in the fridge because i didn't have time to start the baking process immediately, and not enough space in the fridge to hold 4 individual loaves. i wonder if that may be when the sourness set in, as it didn't taste very sour when i put it in the fridge?

i'm very gentle with the dough when dividing it and forming the loaves. they all look quite alike when formed as well as when theyre slid onto the baking stone after the second rising. i slash with a big bread knife (my 10" victorinox).

Edited June 15, 2005 by oraklet (log)

[PassionateChefsDie]

Hi All

I've just recently got into making Sour Dough my starter(Made just from flour and water no other additions) is now about 3-4 months old has a lovely balance of sourness, just need to find some rye and caraway to finish it! I have made normal bread and had some very high compliments even though I'm not a traditional Pastry Chef but a good Tournant. I understand about forming a nice skin, I know to make sure its proved to it's limit, I understanding about slashing and blowing the dough.

But I've come across a strange problem that I've not encountered before! Whilst my sour dough is proving(Wish I had a digital camera now) it seems to pull the skin apart cracking, which means I'm putting it in the oven a little to early. The crumb is nice I have the odd hole about the the size of a pen, it's a little dense but thats because I get scared when I see it cracking it looks like it's over proving and about to drop(Though its underproved if I prod it), am I possibly over working my dough(Though by hand it seems a bit strange)?

Thanks before hand

Stef

[Shalmanese]

Yippie! Just made my first sourdough. Got the starter from a local baker. To be honest, I had no idea what I was doing to start off with. The starter had barely bubbled before I made my first batch and I couldn't figure out how to knead such a wet dough so I kept on adding flour until it became relatively stiff. Didn't pay much attention to the proofing or the shaping but everything seems to have turned out OK. We had the bread just with a little butter and sea salt for breakfast and we managed to eat almost the entire thing. Deliciously sour and had a nice chewy structure. Would make an excellent sandwich loaf. The crust was fantastic, probably better than any bread I've ever bought, probably by virtue of it's freshness from the oven. In "Bread, A bakers book", the author mentions that almost any idiot can produce a decent loaf of warm bread. So I'm going to wait until the bread ages a bit and evaluate it again. I'm sure I can do better but I'm pretty damn happy with that first attempt.

Pictures:

Freshly Baked Sourdough

[andrewB]

I have a question in regards to possible 'flour' alternatives. Would it be possible to create a sour dough out of a flour alternative, soy flour, chic pea flour, or even rice flour?

[jackal10]

Shalmanese: Looks good. The wetter the dough the bigger the holes in the crumb. You might find a little oil on your hands and workbench instead of flour will let you work with these wet doughs.

AndrewB: If its fermentable, that is if it has starch in it, then you could make a sour ferment from it. However none of the alternatives you mention have any gluten in them to give structure to the loaf. You can make gluten free loaves, but they usually involve something like Xanathan gum to replace the gluten, as are not terribly satisfactory.

[aliénor]

i have been making the sourdough bread since my starter arrived from jackal10. i have also sent it out to my son in california and he just loves working with the sourdough. bur recently my husband has noticed and i agree with him that the bread seems to have lost its sourness. is there anything i can do to perk it up a bit. the starter seems to be still growing well and the bread is rising well enough but it is the old flavor that we are missing. does anyone have any suggestions??

thanks for the help.

[jackal10]

The starter will evolve over time depending ob your local flour and conditions.

The sourness is also quite temperature sensitive

For sour, here are some things you can try

a) ferment hotter (30C)

b) ferment cooler (10C for longer or overnight in the fridge)

c) ferment out the sponge step more (probably the easiest)

d) Refresh the starter, letting it ferment out more between feedings

[harrygrey382]

Hi,

I'm pretty much new to sourdough, and almost new to baking in general.

I made myself a working a starter, and followed the instructions on the 1st page very closely. Everything went according to plan and as it was predictated until I got it out of the banneton:

it flopped down a bit onto the baking tray, then when I took it out of the oven, it hadn't risen up much, just out sideways. So I was left with a very low profile lofe - flat even. It tasted very good, sour. It had lots of air bubbles in it (wans't too dense) and the crust was how I like it (thin - I used the water method).

So, how do I keep it from flowing sideays in the oven (it is an electric oven at 230C). Did I over proof it or something. I think the starter is working ok, it rose wuite a bit in the fridge over night...

Also, what's the accepted method for stopping the dough sticking to the banneton cloth, I used flour and it was ok?

[jackal10]

Flour is good to stop it sticking to the banneton cloth.

Flour with low gluten such as rice flour or semolina is even better, but traditionalists use the flour the dough was made with.

Don't wash the banneton cloth unless its moldy; instead put in a low oven to dry out. Over time it will build up a non-stick layer.

Several ways of not getting too flat a loaf.

a) Use a stiffer dough. Sourdough gets looser the longer proves, as th acid attacks the starch.

b) Don't give it time. Work quickly from turning the dough out to getting it into a hot oven.

Handle the dough gently as its very fragile at this stage. Don't drop it from a height or you will deflate it and knock the gas out.

c) Don't use a baking tray as you want to maximise heat transfer to the loaf. Use a layer of tiles or bricks in the oven and pre-heat them, then put the dough directly on them. SOme drop the dough from the banneton directly onto the cooking surface.

d) In a domestic oven what works brilliantly is to use a large cast iron casserole, like a Le Crueset, or the like, pre heat it hot and put the dough directly in it, and put the lid on for the first half of the bake. This simulates the hot steamy atmosphere of a bread oven.

e) Don't over proof. My sourdough takes 4 hours from mixing to baking at room temperature, or 2 hours bulk then overnight in the fridge in the banneton. Bake from cold - cold dough is much stiffer and easier to handle

Edited November 9, 2007 by jackal10 (log)