Q&A -- Understanding Stovetop Cookware

[Dave the Cook]

You should consider the 12 qt. Cuisinart disk bottom on sale at Amazon for $25.

That's a very good suggestion, as the Cuisinart piece is almost free at that price.

However, there is a big difference between a 12 quart stock pot and a 17.5 quart stock pot in terms of usability for stock making. On the other hand, one could buy two of the Cuisinart pots and use both for 24 quarts!

For something closer to the desired size, I'd go with a 16-quart Cuisinart stockpot. As long as it's on sale for $80, anyway.

[mnebergall]

Whoops, looks like the price went up to $35. Still cheap.

[abier]

Hi all,

I'm really enjoying reading all this and making my own long-term (as I get the money) plans for replacing the crappy cookware I bought in college. I just picked up the specially-priced Falk 1.5 qt. saucière to take the place of the 1 qt sauce pan I use to prepare roux-based sauces and work with chocolate (and I hope to give it a go for sautéing too), and I can't wait until this weekend to try it out-- I love the feel of it!

Next up, I want to replace the 3.5 qt. saucepan I use for everything from boiling water for vegetables and pasta (obviously not too demanding) to making small amounts of soup and larger amounts of sauces. My plan right now is to get a normal stainless-sided saucepan with an aluminum or copper base, which should be fine for everything but the more delicate sauces, and then, sometime down the line, get a larger copper saucière for making larger amounts of such sauces. Does this sound like a good plan, or would there be any significant value to getting a fully-clad saucepan like one made by Falk or a sale-priced All-Clad LTD for my purposes?

Assuming I do get a SS pan, what value, if any, would the Stiram Catering's copper base provide me with in my case, as opposed to a Professierie one or a Paderno? The woman I talked to at Bridge was definitely pushing me toward the Catering.

I'm not really in too much of a hurry, so I can wait a couple months longer to buy more expensive equipment, if it's going to be better in the long run.

Thanks to all of you, and especially Sam--it's great not to be "flying blind" anymore!

Adam

[NickMach007]

QUOTE (slkinsey @ Jan 8 2004, 05:15 PM)

QUOTE (mnebergall @ Jan 8 2004, 05:13 PM)

You should consider the 12 qt. Cuisinart disk bottom on sale at Amazon for $25. 

That's a very good suggestion, as the Cuisinart piece is almost free at that price.

However, there is a big difference between a 12 quart stock pot and a 17.5 quart stock pot in terms of usability for stock making. On the other hand, one could buy two of the Cuisinart pots and use both for 24 quarts!

For something closer to the desired size, I'd go with a 16-quart Cuisinart stockpot. As long as it's on sale for $80, anyway.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I'll go check out some of that Cuisinart stuff on Amazon before I buy anything. You guys are amazing! What to buy, what to buy...

(I love the internet. What did we ever do before it was around? )

[fimbul]

If it's not too late to chime in, I *did* buy the Sitram set from Costco. It's a good set, and the price was great, but I do have some issues with it, such as:

- The steamer insert. I never use it. It takes up space. This sucks.

- The fry pans that came with the set are ~ 8" and 10". Both are fine, but with those sizes I find cooking for more than two (and sometimes two) a real pain in the ass. A 12" cast iron skillet does me better, most times, without the issues caused by a disk bottom.

- The saute and evasee pans are both fine, but both could be a tad larger. And, since I'm more likely to pan-roast or fry than I am to saute, they don't get as much use in my kitchen as they otherwise might. For my purposes, one larger evasee might have been a more economical choice, at least in terms of precious, precious cabinet space.

Others might want to note that the tops are, indeed, a little flimsy. This bothers me not at all since I never use them, but others might view that as a con.

That said, I'm happy as a clam with the saucepans, and the stockpot, though small-ish, is big enough for for my needs. I end up making stock more frequently than I would if I could make gallons and gallons of the stuff at one time, but I have no room to store such a large amount of stock, so the smaller pot works out for the best.

The set is fine; it's a great price for decent to very good cookware. If you want your cookware now, now, now, and have the space to store pieces you might not use as much (or friends and relatives who'll take them off your hands), this is the set for you. In my case, however, the percieved savings will probably vanish over time as I find new homes for the fry and saute pans and the steamer insert and buy a couple pieces more suited to my cooking style and storage pace.

[oraklet]

sam, yet another question:

i've aquired this smallish enamelled cast iron casserolle (used but in fine condition) that i thought would be good for, say, cooking rice. problem is, now is the second time the rice has been undercooked when timing as i do when cooking it in a stainless pan. i wonder why?

[slkinsey]

i've aquired this smallish enamelled cast iron casserolle (used but in fine condition) that i thought would be good for, say, cooking rice. problem is, now is the second time the rice has been undercooked when timing as i do when cooking it in a stainless pan. i wonder why?

Under cooked as in how? Do you mean that the water was not all absorbed in the amount of time you expected, or was it the case that the water was absorbed but the rice was crunchy? What is the technique you use?

I always cook rice in a Le Creuset pot, and have never experienced any problems -- but mayube I have adjusted my technique to work with the pot. If the problem you're having is that the rice is too wet after the usual amount of time, I'd recommend using less water. If you use the same technique I use (bring the rice to a boil uncovered, then reduce to minimum heat and cover for 20 minutes) you might boil the rice uncovered a little while longer than usual to reduce the liquid. The lids on enameled cast iron are much heavier than "regular" lids, and as a result I find that there is less evaporation when maintaining a low simmer with the pan covered. This means that one has to adjust by starting with less water, or anyway making sure there is less water in the pan when you cover it.

If the opposite is true, and your rice is crunchy at the end, I'd recommend a little more water, covering the pot a little earlier and using a lower heat setting when the pot is covered.

The point of all this is that different cookware really can change the way a certain dish turns out. When using cookware with unusual and particular properties, often times one must adjust the cooking technique slightly.

[slkinsey]

If it's not too late to chime in, I *did* buy the Sitram set from Costco. It's a good set, and the price was great, but I do have some issues with it...

Thanks for the report, fimbul. That is, as you have discovered for yourself and nicely summarized for us, the main drawback of buying a pre-configured set of cookware: most of the time you only get real use out of around 50%.

[fimbul]

If it's not too late to chime in, I *did* buy the Sitram set from Costco.  It's a good set, and the price was great, but I do have some issues with it...

Thanks for the report, fimbul. That is, as you have discovered for yourself and nicely summarized for us, the main drawback of buying a pre-configured set of cookware: most of the time you only get real use out of around 50%.

The bitch of it is, I knew better than to buy a set, I just couldn't resist that price.

Sometimes, sadly, I experience poor impulse control. It causes a sharp pain right in the wallet.

Edited January 13, 2004 by fimbul (log)

[oraklet]

i've aquired this smallish enamelled cast iron casserolle (used but in fine condition) that i thought would be good for, say, cooking rice. problem is, now is the second time the rice has been undercooked when timing as i do when cooking it in a stainless pan. i wonder why?

Under cooked as in how? Do you mean that the water was not all absorbed in the amount of time you expected, or was it the case that the water was absorbed but the rice was crunchy? What is the technique you use?

I always cook rice in a Le Creuset pot, and have never experienced any problems -- but mayube I have adjusted my technique to work with the pot. If the problem you're having is that the rice is too wet after the usual amount of time, I'd recommend using less water. If you use the same technique I use (bring the rice to a boil uncovered, then reduce to minimum heat and cover for 20 minutes) you might boil the rice uncovered a little while longer than usual to reduce the liquid. The lids on enameled cast iron are much heavier than "regular" lids, and as a result I find that there is less evaporation when maintaining a low simmer with the pan covered. This means that one has to adjust by starting with less water, or anyway making sure there is less water in the pan when you cover it.

If the opposite is true, and your rice is crunchy at the end, I'd recommend a little more water, covering the pot a little earlier and using a lower heat setting when the pot is covered.

The point of all this is that different cookware really can change the way a certain dish turns out. When using cookware with unusual and particular properties, often times one must adjust the cooking technique slightly.

undercooked: crunchy. technique (basmati rice): 10 min. low boil, 12 min. resting. normally leaves me with perfect rice. i would have thought that this casserolle would save (a little) energy, but it seems to demand more water and longer boiling. strange.

[RobinKateB]

Hi, thanks so much for the informatice tutorial. I began reading it thinking I would be interrested in acquiring some all clad pieces to form my own set, now I know that is not the case. The one problem is before i was just abstractly aware that my pots and pans by and large are garbage, now I understand exactly why and I am aware of what could become easier if I had good quality cookware that matched my cooking style. This is going to make replacing things slowly harder. However I am proud at how much cooking I can do with cheap cruff.

On to the question, I think the first piece I would like to acquire is an 11 inch curved Sautease Evasee, or larger. This pan perfectly matches the braising etc I do. My question is two fold, first are these only available in lined copper or do they also come in stainless steel with a core of copper? Also, what is the best place to get one? I did not see one on the Bridge kitchenware site. I will be in the cityu in February, so is Zabar's a good place to buy cookware? Or is there a better online place.

Thanks so much

Robin

[slkinsey]

On to the question, I think the first piece I would like to acquire is an 11 inch curved Sautease Evasee, or larger.  This pan perfectly matches the braising etc I do.

Cool. I really do feel that this is the most versatile pan in the kitchen. That said, I prefer enameled cast iron for really heavy-duty braising.

My question is two fold, first are these only available in lined copper or do they also come in stainless steel with a core of copper?

These pans are available in a number of configurations (in order of preference): stainless lined heavy copper (e.g., Bourgeat, Falk Culinair), stainless lined heavy aluminum (e.g., All-Clad MasterChef and LTD), fully clad copper (e.g., All-Clad Copper Core), fully clad aluminum (e.g., All-Clad Stainless), aluminum and copper disk bottom (e.g., Sitram, Paderno). Not all of these configurations are available in the 11" size, however. AFAIK, these are only available in heavy copper or clad aluminum. This is okay, because I think it makes the most sense to get a straight-gauge pan of this type/size anyway, as opposed to disk bottom.

The only cookware with a copper interior and a stainless interior/exterior is All-Clad's Copper Core line. I don't think they make an 11" sauteuse evasee, and anyway I think the line is absurdly expensive for what you get.

Also, what is the best place to get one?  I did not see one on the Bridge kitchenware site.  I will be in the city in February, so is Zabar's a good place to buy cookware?  Or is there a better online place.

Personally, I think you're likely to get the best deals on the Internet. If you decide on heavy copper, I recommend Falk Culinair. They have an 11-inch "saucière" for 235 bucks. Buy an 11-inch stainless lid elsewhere (this one from Paderno fits very well, and is 50 dollars less than Falk's coper cover).

If you'd rather have aluminum, I recommend All-Clad's MasterChef line. This line is the least expensive and also has the thickese layer of aluminum, so it's a winner on both fronts. SuzanneF, who is no stranger to good equipment, has plenty of this stuff. They have 10.5-inch "saucier" which retails for around 180 bucks. You should never pay retail, of course, because you can get a slightly flawed one from Cookware and More for 120 bucks.

There is a slight difference in design between the copper manufacturers and All-Clad. Ths sides in All-Clad's design are a little higher in relation to the diameter of the pan -- 38% as opposed to 33% in copper. This means that the 10.5-inch All-Clad piece has 4-inch tall sides and holds 5.5 quarts as opposed to the 11-inch copper pieces which have 3.6-inch tall sides and hold 4.5 quarts.

The best cookware stores in NYC are, in my opinion: Bridge Kitchenware, Broawday Panhandler, JB Prince, and Zabar's. That said, I don't think the salespeople at Broadway Panhandler or Zabar's really know all that much about the products.

[RobinKateB]

Thank you so much for your prompt reply. I thought you would be interested in the 11 inch Bourgeat flared saute pan I found online for $192.15

[url}http://www.galasource.com/prodList.cfm/2258,M,Bourgeat%20Flared%20saute%20pans,1,1,F,MX1

Shipping is free

-Robin

[RobinKateB]

Oops, I posted this instead of previewing it and there was a typo, on this one you can use the link

Thank you so much for your prompt reply. I thought you would be interested in the 11 inch Bourgeat flared saute pan I found online for $192.15

http://www.galasource.com/prodList.cfm/225...0pans,1,1,F,MX1

Shipping is free

-Robin

[slkinsey]

Looks like a pretty good deal, at 40 bucks less than Falk Culinair. However, as with some of the Mauviel deals referenced elsewhere on this thread, I must mention that it always concerns me when I see a relatively unknown player offering a price much lower than what all the better known outfits of known reliability are offering.

[gkg680]

The 11 inch curved sauteuse evasee (Bourgeat) is, of course, different from the 11 inch Mauviel conventional saute pan I purchased recently from artcuivre.com, but I must say, the Mauviel is a delight to cook with.

It's very heavy, to put it mildly, and desperately needs a "helper handle" opposite the long cast-iron stem, but I was delighted to cook up a wonderful batch of Chicken Marsala tonight, which I plated on a bed of spaghettini. It's sturdy, the cooking surface is large, the pan holds 5.0 liters of liquid rather than the stated 4.6 liters, and the vertical sides, which are much taller than the American saute pans have, give the pan more versatility.

If you can't go to Paris and look thru the astonishing inventory they have at Dehillerin, I would favor ordering from artcuivre if they have the pans you seek. I had to wait a month, but they were very reputable, responded promptly to my Email requests for a status report, and they were courteous as well. I echo Sam Kinsey's doubt about the wisdom of purchasing over the Internet from an unfamiliar vendor.

This Mauviel pan is already a personal treasure. I think it'd be hard for anyone to buy just one commercial-grade Mauviel copper piece. Best wishes to all.

Greg in Chicago

[RobinKateB]

I am still mulling over my possibilities of which sauteuse I will go with. However i was also curious if anyone has had a chance to check out the Calphalon one series that is exclusive to Willaims Sonoma until February and if so what your thoughts are. I don't think i will be investing in it as it is not tried and true and I am sure a large percentage of the price is the advertising i have seen leading up tyo its release. It is a shame as I love the idea of this pan, especially the helper handle.

Calphalon One Chef's Muti Pan

-Robin

[slkinsey]

Robin, I am not sold on the whole Calphalon One thing. I hate nonstick, except for very specific applications (delicate fish, eggs, that kind of thing), and there is nothing about this new line that makes me think Calphalon has solved their warping problem. As for the steamer basket, most people find that it's difficult to do better than a cheapo hardware store collapsible metal steamer.

[oraklet]

It's very heavy, to put it mildly, and desperately needs a "helper handle" opposite the long cast-iron stem

if the handle is sufficiently long, you can grip it close to the pan and let the end of the handle rest on the under side of your arm. at first it may feel a little awkward, but it's much better than just using your hand.

that's about the only advantage of long handles!

[Katherine]

As for the steamer basket, most people find that it's difficult to do better than a cheapo hardware store collapsible metal steamer.

I wouldn't say steamer baskets are overrated, since I use mine all the time, but...

I have one that came with my $20 stainless spaghetti pot, and two smaller universal ones that I got at an off-price salvage store for a few bucks. They're worth every penny.

[NickMach007]

Well thanks to all the input here, I've made a few investments in pans...(I haven't saved up enough yet for any copper stuff, but I've only recently graduated from poor student to poor employee).

I got a large professional nonstick from calphalon and a smaller sized one from analon (I can't live without my sunday morning omlettes and I ocassionally make tortilla espanola/fry up some fish). Why both? Well the price was right for one, and sometimes you gotta make bigger portions!

But I also ended up ordering the Sitram 17.7qt stockpot from Bridge. Should be here in a few days! I'm just about out of my frozen supply of stock, so its time to make more this weekend!

Its so much fun getting more toys to cook with.

[NickMach007]

I have a question that I thought some smart egulleteer might be able to answer.

I've seen and experienced cheaper/lighter cookware rock around on a hot burner. Even if you take the pan off and then set it back on the burner, the rocking will start up again right away. I have a couple of ideas as to why this might happen, but was just curious as to the real explanation. I figure it must have something to do with the materials, the weight, and a warped bottom of some sort.

If anyone could explain I would be interested in knowing why...

Thanks again!

[winesonoma]

I have a question that I thought some smart egulleteer might be able to answer.

I've seen and experienced cheaper/lighter cookware rock around on a hot burner. Even if you take the pan off and then set it back on the burner, the rocking will start up again right away. I have a couple of ideas as to why this might happen, but was just curious as to the real explanation. I figure it must have something to do with the materials, the weight, and a warped bottom of some sort.

If anyone could explain I would be interested in knowing why...

Thanks again!

Cheap cookware+ cheap stove causes rocking. Falk has an introductry special That I recomend. I got and 6" frypan and later a 6" sauce pan for about $99 apiece. Great Stuff

[winemike]

I've got a question for you cookware experts out there

I just bought a Induc'Inox saute pan from Mauviel but I'm still

on gas for the moment (thought I'd buy an induction compatible

pan now...).

I've used it for the first time (on gas) and it's full of stains inside

which look a bit like oil stains with that rainbow colored edges.

Not that I think it's going to change the quality of the pan but

it just doesn't look very good

Also, I was not that impressed with the heat distribution.

It heated up fairly quickly but when cooking a risotto

(on medium heat of course), you clearly see the burner's shape ... quite sad, I found.

Do you think that's normal ?

Thanks !

[slkinsey]

I've used [my Induc'nox saute pan] for the first time (on gas) and it's full of stains inside which look a bit like oil stains with that rainbow colored edges.  Not that I think it's going to change the quality of the pan but it just doesn't look very good

This is quite typical for a polished stainless steel surface. Get yourself some Bar Keeper's Friend and those stains will come off in no time.

Also, I was not that impressed with the heat distribution. It heated up fairly quickly but when cooking a risotto (on medium heat of course), you clearly see the burner's shape ... quite sad, I found.

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, Induc'inox is magnetic steel fully clad with stainless steel, and it is around 2 mm thick. This specification is not great from a thermal standpoint because magnetic steel does not have good heat characteristics over traditional heat. As you have discovered, this is readily apparent in a pan with a large cooking surface like a sauté pan.

You're cooking over ~2 mm of magnetic steel, which is way too thin. I'd much rather have 4 mm (minimum) to 7 mm (preferred) of aluminum or 2 - 2.5 mm of copper down there. Even 2 mm of aluminum (as in All-Clad Stainless) would be better than 2 mm of magnetic steel over standard heat, and I think even that is more appropriate to a small (1 - 2 qt) sauce pan or similar. I personally wouldn't recommend an Induc'inox sauté pan, or indeed any pan from this line for anyone who is not currently using induction. These pans are designed to be used with induction, and the thermal properties are not good over a traditional heat source.

Do you think that's normal?

Yes. Both results are entirely expected given the materials specifications for a Mauviel Indic'inox sauté pan.