Unknown NC Barbecue Gems

[pogophiles]

I know that I might be revealing myself as a 'cue dilletante, but I've rarely seen hush puppies with barbecue -- white bread is typically de rigeur, and hush puppies are for fish fries or shrimp boils.

This has been my experience as well. I've never seen hush puppies served with barbecue at any of the Tennessee joints...

[Varmint]

I know that I might be revealing myself as a 'cue dilletante, but I've rarely seen hush puppies with barbecue -- white bread is typically de rigeur, and hush puppies are for fish fries or shrimp boils.

This has been my experience as well. I've never seen hush puppies served with barbecue at any of the Tennessee joints...

I don't think you can truly call yourself a 'cue diletante without knowing the basics of NC barbecue, can you? Our rules are very, very different.

[Varmint]

Well done.

It takes a bit of courage to visit random Q shacks, but the payoff can be quite good.

(I am sorry, and I am sure it is just the photos, but those 1st two pics do not make me hungry at all. Mount slaw is a bit intimidating, and the skins look dangerous.)

That first joint was extremely good, but the camera plays tricks on us sometimes. It was a ton of slaw and a ton of pork. The skins did indeed have an incredibly frightening appearance, but they were the real deal. Much more realistic than what you get in downtown Raleigh at Clyde Coopers!

[pogophiles]

I don't think you can truly call yourself a 'cue diletante without knowing the basics of NC barbecue, can you?  Our rules are very, very different.

Oh, I quite agree. Just haven't made the pilgrimage yet. I do find it odd that you don't find hush puppies with barbecue in Tennessee, but you do frequently find barbecue served atop a hoecake. A couple of places here in Nashville serve it atop a jalapeno hoecake -- which makes for an excellent, if untraditional, barbcue experience...

[Dave the Cook]

I don't think you can truly call yourself a 'cue diletante without knowing the basics of NC barbecue, can you?  Our rules are very, very different.

Oh, I quite agree. Just haven't made the pilgrimage yet. I do find it odd that you don't find hush puppies with barbecue in Tennessee, but you do frequently find barbecue served atop a hoecake. A couple of places here in Nashville serve it atop a jalapeno hoecake -- which makes for an excellent, if untraditional, barbcue experience...

To quote Inigo Montoya in The Princess Bride: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Merriam-Webster on dilettante. Definition 2 (and the referenced synonym) was the meaning I was using.

Edit: (and the most common usage as well, despite M-W's errant numbering.)

Edited October 1, 2004 by Jason Perlow (log)

[Varmint]

I don't think you can truly call yourself a 'cue diletante without knowing the basics of NC barbecue, can you?  Our rules are very, very different.

Oh, I quite agree. Just haven't made the pilgrimage yet. I do find it odd that you don't find hush puppies with barbecue in Tennessee, but you do frequently find barbecue served atop a hoecake. A couple of places here in Nashville serve it atop a jalapeno hoecake -- which makes for an excellent, if untraditional, barbcue experience...

To quote Inigo Montoya in The Princess Bride: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Merriam-Webster on dilettante. Definition 2 (and the referenced synonym) was the meaning I was using.

Edit: (and the most common usage as well, despite M-W's errant numbering.)

That's inconceivable.

Or not.

Busted as charged. Some lawyer I am!

[pogophiles]

What word was you use for someone who has a deep interest, but a narrow band of exposure?

[Dave the Cook]

What word was you use for someone who has a deep interest, but a narrow band of exposure?

You and me, apparently.

[Fat Guy]

The burning question is: Where did you get those fish trousers???

chefwear.com , great site.

Chefwear.com has the Nobu-style pants: aqua colored with fish print. But you can't get the black ones from Chefwear.com. For those you have to go to Chefworks at http://www.chefwork.com/ -- click on "Baggies & Pants" and then on "Designer Baggies."

[Varmint]

I think most of the places we visited were more concerned with Steve's pants than they were with his being from New York City.

By the way, we always say "New York City" extra loud down here, much like they did in that Pace Salsa commercial.

[snowangel]

I'd appreciate a slaw report from Ellen.

[Holly Moore]

Varmint - I seem to remember that one of you merry band has, in the past, likened Carolina BBQ to either dog or cat food.

Has his appreciation of chopped pork matured?

[Fat Guy]

Has his appreciation of chopped pork matured?

My appreciation of NC barbecue has matured. Whether that's because my tastes have changed or because I've had better stuff is an open question -- I lean towards mostly the latter plus a little of the former (though in part on account of the latter). The first examples of NC barbecue I ever had were quite like cat food in texture and appearance, and some of those were in Lexington at the places that are supposed to be world-class. If you chop the pork too fine -- grind it, really -- and junk it up with so much sauce that you can't taste the pork, the product you get is disgusting to me. I can't understand why anybody would do that to a beautiful piece of smoked pork shoulder or a whole pit-cooked hog (well, no culinary reason, anyway).

Now I've learned a few things about how to order it, and I've had access to better places -- both thanks to Varmint, who seems to have more of a knack for sniffing out the best places than I do. Rough chop is a must -- there is to me an incredible decline when you go from rough to fine, similar to going from hand-cut to machine-sliced pastrami. Semi-fine can still be good (this is the variant regarding which my taste has evolved), but once it's at the ground-up consistency it's just nasty. I assure you in a million years I will never acquire that taste (whereas, I might acquire the pork-skin taste). One of the things that was so great about the first joint we visited was that the rough chop was the roughest I've ever seen. If a place doesn't have rough chop, my preference would be to get sliced. You can always chop it up yourself, but you can never reconstitute the finely chopped pieces. The other thing is that some places put a lot of the outside brown into the chop, which is a really good thing. That's worth asking for. I think it takes a few visits to any given barbecue place to learn exactly how to order so as to get the best product there, so when you do a single hit you need a little luck.

That being said, I think the technique of pulling is inherently superior to that of chopping. I'm more sympathetic to chopping when a whole hog is involved, because the idea is to mix up the different parts into a kind of a master blend, but all the places we went to were WNC/Lexington-style not whole-hog. With that piece of meat, I think it just comes out better if you pull it the way they do in Memphis.

The thing is, though, this venture was really unusual. Even a die-hard NC barbecue fanatic xenophobe patriot zealot will tell you that it's almost unheard of to hit five untested barbecue places in a row and have great barbecue at each. That just doesn't happen. I can't imagine it will ever happen to us again. When we hit restaurant #1 and the product was so good, I told Varm we should call it quits because the bar had been set so high that the whole rest of the day was going to be a series of disappointments. Then when #2 was on par with #1 (better smoke flavor, but not as moist), I figured we really should terminate early because it's kind of sacreligious to push one's luck beyond that. Our sustained luck over three other joints -- one of which was just a spontaneous roadside pulloff because Varm thought the signage was cool -- was one of those once-in-a-lifetime things. That, plus each place had its own unique backcountry charm that blew away anything I've seen in the legendary Lexington places.

[Holly Moore]

That post should be required reading for the eGullet Culinary Institute course on BBQ, though I see the fine chop Lexington #1 BBQ with slaw as a blending of ingredients and a great sandwich. The same pork, alone, pulled or rough chop would also be great. Variations on a theme.

I also don't think it's so rare to bat 5 for 5 for bbq in the Carolinas. It's a matter of Carolina pride. Townsfolk will tar, feather and ride out of town on a rail anyone who doesn't do his best to put out great bbq. Maybe I've been lucky, but I believe it is harder to find bad bbq than very good bbq in North Carolina.

There is one issue I'd appreciate opinions on. Common bbq wisdom vehemently pronounces that if it's not wood smoked, it's not barbecue. In the Carolinas there is no greater putdown for a barbecue place than "he's barbecuing with gas." What are people's experience.

[KatieLoeb]

Damn, y'all! That was a heapin' mess of meat you consumed in one afternoon! FIVE PLACES! Egad! I thought that we overdid it on the DDC Rib Run last summer and we only hit three places! And I was comatose for two days afterward

It all looks really good though. I'm getting hungry just looking at it and am going to have to go get a snack now!

[Varmint]

There is one issue I'd appreciate opinions on.  Common bbq wisdom vehemently pronounces that if it's not wood smoked, it's not barbecue.  In the Carolinas there is no greater putdown for a barbecue place than "he's barbecuing with gas."  What are people's experience.

Unfortunately, Holly, most of the NC barbecue joints cook with electric or gas "pits". And these businesses are not suffering. Part of the problem is zoning restrictions, as fewer cities allow restaurants to cook with wood. Also, cooking with wood is quite expensive and very labor intensive. Allen & Son in Chapel Hill is the only place I know where the owner still splits the wood by hand. That's taking a lot of pride in one's craft.

Ultimately, most locals do not really care about how the meat is cooked. They don't even demand that it have any smoky flavor. They want consistency. They want tender, moist pork. With whole hog, you can get that pretty easily, as you can cut in a good deal of fat. The woodburners are a dying breed, and that's why it's important for me to take these trips from time to time to remind myself of how important these establishments are for our culinary heritage. They represent all that's good about North Carolina and its people. Plus, it's damn good eating.

I also don't think it's so rare to bat 5 for 5 for bbq in the Carolinas. It's a matter of Carolina pride. Townsfolk will tar, feather and ride out of town on a rail anyone who doesn't do his best to put out great bbq. Maybe I've been lucky, but I believe it is harder to find bad bbq than very good bbq in North Carolina.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Townsfolk will very often rely on past reputation rather than actual quality when it comes to barbecue. I can think of a number of "top" restaurants that put out an inferior product, yet they still do amazing business. Remember, mediocre barbecue is better than no barbecue at all!

P.S. At two of the joints (Snook's and Hendrix), we did mention that "Holly would love this place."

[Varmint]

Our sustained luck over three other joints -- one of which was just a spontaneous roadside pulloff because Varm thought the signage was cool -- was one of those once-in-a-lifetime things.

But we did drive around the back to confirm that they cooked with wood before we went inside!

We also passed 3 or 4 barbecue restaurants along the way. I'm glad we did, because we might have missed the Red Pig or Snook's, two joints that I'd kill to have here in Raleigh.

[Fat Guy]

Common bbq wisdom vehemently pronounces that if it's not wood smoked, it's not barbecue.  In the Carolinas there is no greater putdown for a barbecue place than "he's barbecuing with gas."

Though it's possible to cook with gas and smoke with wood simultaneously. There's no particular advantage, as I understand it, to using wood as your heat source. The benefit comes from using wood as a source of smoke. Many barbecue places -- especially in Memphis -- produce terrific, smoky, old-fashioned-tasting barbecue by using gas-fired "pits" that have fireboxes in them to hold slowly smoldering wood. It's also possible to make very good (if not the best perhaps) barbecue using gas (or electric) heat and wood chips.

[Varmint]

Common bbq wisdom vehemently pronounces that if it's not wood smoked, it's not barbecue.  In the Carolinas there is no greater putdown for a barbecue place than "he's barbecuing with gas."

Though it's possible to cook with gas and smoke with wood simultaneously. There's no particular advantage, as I understand it, to using wood as your heat source. The benefit comes from using wood as a source of smoke. Many barbecue places -- especially in Memphis -- produce terrific, smoky, old-fashioned-tasting barbecue by using gas-fired "pits" that have fireboxes in them to hold slowly smoldering wood. It's also possible to make very good (if not the best perhaps) barbecue using gas (or electric) heat and wood chips.

Nevertheless, many of the barbecue establishments in North Carolina use absolutely NO smoke in their cooking. No wood, no chips, no smoke. I try to stay away from those places, of course.

[slkinsey]

Since Dean has been favoring us with so many interesting pictures of North Carolina, I thought I'd show everyone what else they have been missing by not being in North Carolina right now. These pictures were taken from the deck on my house in Western NC a few days ago:

Even though it's a hazy day, it's a pretty nice view, no? Wait? What's that lump on that tree? Let's have a closer look...

Um... is that what I think it is? Is that a baby bear right outside my back door?! I guess it must be, because his mother is in the garden.

D'oh! Mom is climbing up the deck to have a visit!

Time to go inside and radically rethink my position on gun control...

Bears, if you didn't already know, love good pork barbeque.

[bergerka]

Hey Varmint--my favorite bbq place in NC (or anywhere else, in fact my favorite bbq place EVER), the Hawg Wild outside Brevard, burned down in summer 2001...you don't happen to know if it's been rebuilt, do you? I have never had pulled pork like that.

K, trying not to think about the bears on the deck.

[dscott]

Umm, Varmint, I'm thinking that this didn't help the old diet out too much?

But, damn, that all looked good. Now I'm really hungry.

[Varmint]

Great pictures, Sam. I just came from Hickory. Had I known you were in Black Mountain, I would have driven the extra hour to see you. Thanks a hell of a lot for the heads up!

By the way, on my way back from Hickory, I stopped at Snook's again for a sandwich while I wasn't stuffed. It was awesome barbecue. The smoky brown bits of barbecue were perfect. I also got a pimento cheeseburger which was very good. They had sweet potato and chocolate cream cheese pie on today's menu, but I passed on those.

I also stopped at Little Richard's in Winston-Salem, which is generally recognized as having great barbecue. Flavorless. It goes to show that you still have to have a fair amount of luck.

[Jinmyo]

slkinsey, great photos. And no Nobu pants in that set.

[Andy Lynes]

The fried pork skins appear to be similar to the crackling traditionally served with roast pork in the UK. They also resemble a sort of hot, fresh version of the commercially produced "pork scratchings", sold in packets like crisps (potato chips) in British pubs.

This thread has made me very, very hungry and reminds me of how easy, and enjoyable, it is to fall in with Steven's eating patterns when you hang out with him for any period of time.