Grits, grits, grits!

[lperry]

So, to rephrase, you're saying that white grits are white not because they're made from white corn but, rather, because the process of removing the hull with lye whitens the product?

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I don't know if this is correct. In addition to the white, there is yellow hominy or posole available throughout Mexico and Peru. Purple too. Grind it up and you get colored masa, so you should also get colored grits. I looked at a couple of websites for information (Dixie Lily and Martha White), and they seem to indicate that the color of corn products is from the color of the kernels. Andiesenji and RanchoGordo make their own hominy - are you guys reading? Any insight?

Just to throw in my possibly controversial two cents, if you can't get any from a mill, Dixie Lily grits are the best.

-L

[annecros]

So, to rephrase, you're saying that white grits are white not because they're made from white corn but, rather, because the process of removing the hull with lye whitens the product?

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I think it removes the germ and the hull. Which is not a bad thing, though I know that seems counterintuitive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixtamal

Quote from article:

"Nixtamalization is the process whereby ripe maize grains are soaked and cooked in an alkaline solution, usually lime based, to cause the transparent outer hull, the pericarp, to separate from the grain. This process has multiple benefits including enabling the grain to be more effectively ground; increasing protein and vitamin content availability; improving flavor and aroma and reduction of mycotoxins. The recorded Aztec word for the product of this process is nixtamal. The term can also be used to describe the removal of the pericarp from any grain such as sorghum by an alkali process."

From the history section:

"Maize was introduced by Christopher Columbus in the 15th century, with it being grown in Spain as early as 1498. Europeans accepted maize within a generation, but they did not adopt the nixtamalization process, perhaps because the Europeans had more efficient milling processes and so did not need to remove the pericarp. However, without the process maize is a much less beneficial foodstuff, leading to outbreaks of pellagra and kwashiorkor in areas where it became a staple grain, such as certain regions of Italy and Africa. Because of this lack of understanding of the importance of the processing, maize suffered the stigma of being an unhealthy grain that could stave off starvation but lead to malnourishment. For example, this is why polenta was considered the poor person’s food in Italy until its more recent increase in status as gourmet food."

Nutritional Benefits:

"The nutritional benefits are many with nixtamalization. Calcium is increased by 750% with 85% available for digestion. Other vital minerals increase as well including iron, copper and zinc which may be due to the lime being used or the vessels being used to make nixtamal. Niacin is made available for digestion which would otherwise be inaccessible with non-processed maize. Another important aspect of this process’ benefit is the significant reduction (90-94%) of the mycotoxins Fusarium vierticilloides and Fusarium proliferatum which produce fumosins which cause disease in animals and possible carcinoma in humans.

If nixtamal is allowed to ferment, riboflavin, protein, and niacin increase further in addition to amino acids, such as tryptophan and lysine. It has been calculated that residents of rural Mexico acquire 50% of their daily protein and 70% of calories from nixtamal tortillas. Because of the importance of nixtamal to the diet, the Mexican government has mandated that nixtamal flour have further vitamin fortification with vitamins A and C, niacin, riboflavin, folic acid, iron and zinc."

It's very confusing, even to a Southern girl like me, and I could be mistaken on any and all counts!

Edit to add: After rereading and noting that the hull is transparent, I was obviously mistaken on my preconception that the hull carries the grits color, and that white grits are always hominy. It appears that both polenta and grits are "grits" - but that grits can be either raw grain (heart grits) or hominy.

Clear as mud.

Edited November 18, 2006 by annecros (log)

[Fat Guy]

Okay, so I have a few questions now:

1 - Does the term grits necessarily refer to hominy grits, or is it proper to call any variant of ground-up corn grits?

2 - Assuming it's okay to refer to coarser, non-hulled, yellow, ground-up corn as grits (yellow grits?), is there any difference between that and polenta?

3 - What's the difference between polenta and cornmeal?

4 - Are soft white grits made from actual white corn, or does the hulling process make the corn white?

[annecros]

Okay, so I have a few questions now:

1 - Does the term grits necessarily refer to hominy grits, or is it proper to call any variant of ground-up corn grits?

2 - Assuming it's okay to refer to coarser, non-hulled, yellow, ground-up corn as grits (yellow grits?), is there any difference between that and polenta?

3 - What's the difference between polenta and cornmeal?

4 - Are soft white grits made from actual white corn, or does the hulling process make the corn white?

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OK, I will be as helpful as I can:

The term "grits" refers to any ground grain, I think:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grits

"The word "grits" comes from Old English grytta meaning a coarse meal of any kind. Yellow grits include the whole kernel, while white grits use hulled kernels. Grits are prepared by simply boiling into a porridge; normally they are boiled until enough water evaporates to leave them semi-solid. They are traditionally served at breakfast, but can also be used at any meal."

This definition, from the same source as the earlier one, contradicts the white vs. yellow theory. Oh well.

There may or may not be a difference between the yellow grits and polenta. It is determined by the lye treatment, I think. Traditional polenta, if I am reading the history right, is simply dried corn. "Grits" in the American South refer to a treated dried grain. I think.

Texture, or how ground the corn is ground, is the only difference that I can determine between polenta and cornmeal. Every cornmeal I have tried, including right out of a Grist Mill, is finer than polenta. Cornmeal is very fine, and could be categorized as a corn flour. I think.

I think soft white grits are made from white corn. Soft yellow grits? I am assuming thye are made from a hominy process.

I'm sure that cleared it all up for you (not), but the important thing is that grits are wonderful, so is polenta.

Bobs Red Mill products will give you a wonderful tasty result. As will other products labelled grits, or polenta for that matter. I personally cannot perceive enough of a distinction between soft white grits and polenta for there to be any, but others might. I CAN find a real distinction between "heart" grits and hominy grits to establish a preference.

I like hominy grits. But "heart" grits are very good on a cold morning. Would not dream of making cornbread out of either. I may not be correct, as my personal knowledge is limited, but I do not believe that a bread type product is made from polenta, either.

But even yellow hominy grits, now that I think back, have a different flavor.

Hope this cleared everything up, and anybody out there that can jump in with an opinion is WELCOME.

Anne

Just to confuse the symptoms, "grits" in the Southern sense vary from mill to mill, brand to brand, region to region.

I think the cooks skill in producing a soft, hearty porridge, are what makes grits in the American South.

My opinion only.

Edited November 18, 2006 by annecros (log)

[dockhl]

As a long time Yankee, I hadn't had grits until recently. Like 'em, don't love 'em. Made cheese grits, pretty good.

The idea of Shrimp and Grits is very appealing. Could someone point me at a recipe that would be worthy?

I found THIS ONE on the Food Network site. Does it look good?

What else would one serve with Shrimp and Grits?

[Carrot Top]

Grits are a Way of Life.

Polenta is a Way of Life too, but a different one.

In certain circles, Polenta is a Lifestyle.

Grits are never a Lifestyle.

What else would one serve with Shrimp and Grits?

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Beer.

And lots of it.

[lperry]

Grits are a Way of Life.

Polenta is a Way of Life too, but a different one.

In certain circles, Polenta is a Lifestyle.

Grits are never a Lifestyle.

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Hmmm. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by lifestyle, but my grandparents had grits every day, often at two or more meals. Grits were to their diet like rice is in some other cultures. It is still amazing memory-laden comfort food for me. Now in my family grits are always served at fish fries, as are hush-puppies - it's a cornstravaganza.

-L

[annecros]

Grits are a Way of Life.

Polenta is a Way of Life too, but a different one.

In certain circles, Polenta is a Lifestyle.

Grits are never a Lifestyle.

What else would one serve with Shrimp and Grits?

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Beer.

And lots of it.

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Well, as much as I love ya Carrot Top, grits were and are a lifestyle. Maybe not "lifestyle" in terms of "we are very affluent, therefore we are eating grits" though that does go on these days. But a lifestyle in the terms of this is how we live and nourish ourselves and our family.

Polenta eaters in Europe were considered "cheap white trash" in a much more familiar vernacular. The only difference is that they were sick, whereas poor in the south remained relatively healthy.

Hey, "respec", in the words of Ali G. It was necessary for the Native Americans, the colonists, and the pre and post Civil War residents of the states in question to eat and live. I am really intriqued by the adaptation of corn in the Eastern hemisphere. Very creative.

To answer another question, Edna Lewis and Scott Peacock published as good a Shrimp and Grits recipe as I have ever seen. See that thread!

Where is "Old Foodie" anyway? She could chime in anytime...

[Carrot Top]

I was using "lifestyle" in the way that it is often used to infer something aspirational rather than actual.

I actually hadn't run into anyone using grits in this fashion yet. Live and learn.

P.S. No disrespect intended, annecros, at all.

Edited November 18, 2006 by Carrot Top (log)

[annecros]

I was using "lifestyle" in the way that it is often used to infer something aspirational rather than actual. 

I actually hadn't run into anyone using grits in this fashion yet. Live and learn. 

P.S. No disrespect intended, annecros, at all. 

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Oh, don't be silly! No disrespect perceived! I think I understood your meaning, but was probably more concerned about outside perceptions.

Yes, yankees will serve grits in a rather pretentious manner, then explain that they are actually a more rustic version of polenta, and are therefore better. Shrimp and grits, as a feature, requiring explanation. I can just picture Granny's reaction.

South Florida is a very interesting place, socially and culturally.

[andiesenji]

There is a difference between grits and hominy grits.

However 99% of the grits marketed by small mills in the south are not from hominy or nixtamalized corn. The dried and finely ground "hominy" grits are commonly seen in grocery stores everywhere else.

You can tell because the white is all white or the yellow is an even, light yellow, with no variation in color, which you see in stone-ground meal.

I grew up on a farm in western Kentucky that had a water-powered grist mill in regular operation until the late '50s. It is still maintained in working order but is not in regular use because of enviornmental restrictions on the damming of the creek which feeds into an area where waterfoul are protected - a federal permit is now required before it can be operated.

Most of the farmers in the area brought corn to be milled, white corn for cooking, and yellow corn for livestock feed.

Most southerners preferred the white "dent" corn for cornmeal for cooking and baking because it was "sweeter" and this was simply because the starch/sugar conversion was higher.

The yellow "horse" or "hog" corn was larger and when ground, contained a lot more fiber and a lot more starch.

This is obvious when milled cornmeal is sprinkled in water. Some will sink immediately, a lot will float for a while before absorbing water and sinking - the hull bits of high-fiber corn will float indefinitely.

Nowadays, however, there are yellow corns that have been developed that are as sweet and as flavorful as the heirloom white corns grown when I was a child.

Bob's Red Mill produces coarse, medium and fine grades of yellow cornmeal - the coarse is the same as the one labeled polenta.

If you want a product that is very close to the traditional stone-ground meal available 60+ years ago, mix these three types together.

The stone mill output is all grades at once but the milled meal is directed over screens, first fine, then medium, then coarse to separate the various grades.

When I mill whole corn, I set the mill (Nutrimill) for coarse and run it through. I then reserve 1/3 of the coarse, mill the remaining 2/3 at medium, then mill half of that batch on fine, then mix them all together. I like the texture this produces, whether it is for boiling for grits, mush or polenta, or for making cornbread.

Edited November 18, 2006 by andiesenji (log)

[andiesenji]

This discussion also reminded me of one of my favorite DVDs, "My Cousin Vinny" and the introduction of these two New Yorkers to real southern grits.

[lperry]

P.S. No disrespect intended, annecros, at all. 

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None perceived here either - I just wanted to understand what you meant. Many people are surprised when they find out that grits are a staple food in some regions. (What annecros said).

Thanks for the input, Andie, you always have great stories. I wish there were more mills around today. I remember going to one in north Georgia with my parents when I was a child. We would buy the requisite buckwheat pancake mix (why is this sold at every mill?) and the stone ground grits. I should do an internet search. A road trip may be in order to find a mill nearby.

-L

[menon1971]

This may have already been stated, but I believe that yellow, white, blue, etc. corn can all be made into hominy grits via a chemical process, and that all of these types of corn can also variously be made into a coarser ground meal, typical of most "Southern" grits, or milled finer which yields cornmeal or polenta.

Two grit related suggestions:

1. Wild mushroom grits -- think risotto.

2. New Mexican roasted green chiles with a nice sharp Vermont, New York, or Canadian white cheddar.

[jess mebane]

Yes, yankees will serve grits in a rather pretentious manner, then explain that they are actually a more rustic version of polenta, and are therefore better.

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Judge not lest ye be judged: My skinny ol' Da was stuck on a boat cruising Italy for the past two weeks, and Motherdear sent a postcard wherein the poor man was heard to wail, "I'd give $10 for a bowl of grits." Moments later, a water materialized with a lovely dish of polenta with cheese and mushrooms, and peace descended over the Adriatic Sea ......

[annecros]

Yes, yankees will serve grits in a rather pretentious manner, then explain that they are actually a more rustic version of polenta, and are therefore better.

←

Judge not lest ye be judged: My skinny ol' Da was stuck on a boat cruising Italy for the past two weeks, and Motherdear sent a postcard wherein the poor man was heard to wail, "I'd give $10 for a bowl of grits." Moments later, a water materialized with a lovely dish of polenta with cheese and mushrooms, and peace descended over the Adriatic Sea ......

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Lovely story.

Take comfort where you can, and we all have more in common than we do differences, I think.

[Fat Guy]

So it seems there's some intersection between the sets "grits" and "polenta." But is there union (all grits = polenta and all polenta = grits) or is polenta a subset of grits (all polenta = grits but not all grits = polenta)?

[dockhl]

What else would one serve with Shrimp and Grits?

To answer another question, Edna Lewis and Scott Peacock published as good a Shrimp and Grits recipe as I have ever seen. See that thread!

I didn't see a recipe in the thread for Shrimp and Grits, can someone brief me? Gonna make 'em for dinner tonight and have several recipes I'm looking at. Still don't know which one or what to serve with it.....other than beer........................

[annecros]

What else would one serve with Shrimp and Grits?

To answer another question, Edna Lewis and Scott Peacock published as good a Shrimp and Grits recipe as I have ever seen. See that thread!

I didn't see a recipe in the thread for Shrimp and Grits, can someone brief me? Gonna make 'em for dinner tonight and have several recipes I'm looking at. Still don't know which one or what to serve with it.....other than beer........................

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So sorry, was on the "Cookbook Roullete" thread, and Daniel really produced grits that would, and did, make a Southern lady hungry.

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=94980&st=30

Not enough time now, and probably late, but will PM a good recipe later. An awful lot going on in the house at the moment!

Have fun. Grits are not really that hard, and if you have prepared shrimp before, well it all just comes natural. If you have shrimp AND grits on the same plate, you are pretty much assured of a decent meal. Nobody is going to complain with those components.

Anne

Edit: WOW, my really bad, can't find it, but still looking...

Edited November 19, 2006 by annecros (log)

[andiesenji]

Note the variety of Grits recipes at RecipeSource.

I have a couple of grits cookbooks that I enjoy a great deal.

Gone With The Grits has quite a few unusual recipes, including some dips made with grits.

Grits.com has 52 recipes for grits plus a bunch of other good southern food recipes including a sweet potato/pecan casserole that is very, very good.

[dockhl]

Note the variety of Grits recipes at RecipeSource.

I have a couple of grits cookbooks that I enjoy a great deal. 

Gone With The Grits has quite a few unusual recipes, including some dips made with grits. 

Grits.com has 52 recipes for grits plus a bunch of other good southern food recipes including a sweet potato/pecan casserole that is very, very good.

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Thanks, but what is authentic ? I am just looking for guidance .....

[annecros]

So it seems there's some intersection between the sets "grits" and "polenta." But is there union (all grits = polenta and all polenta = grits) or is polenta a subset of grits (all polenta = grits but not all grits = polenta)?

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Excellent question, and perfectly reasonable.

Southern people do not necessarily depend upon reason. But you deserve an answer, and it is the best I can give you.

Yes, there is an intersection.

Yes, there is a union.

All grits = polenta, grits, and other various derivations of dried corn, and possibly other ground grains.

Considering history, all polenta = grits, all grits = either hominy or dried corn, all hominy = dried corn.

Corn culture. In my opinion it changed the world, with very little credit to this day to the origin.

I am beginning to sound a bit like Mayhaw Man and Okra, though I do agree that Okra is the universal answer to all the world's problems. Another story..

Just make a nice, lovely porridge, and enjoy.

[annecros]

Note the variety of Grits recipes at RecipeSource.

I have a couple of grits cookbooks that I enjoy a great deal. 

Gone With The Grits has quite a few unusual recipes, including some dips made with grits. 

Grits.com has 52 recipes for grits plus a bunch of other good southern food recipes including a sweet potato/pecan casserole that is very, very good.

←

Thanks, but what is authentic ? I am just looking for guidance .....

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OK, authentic in a Southern household is very flexible and subjective. It is a very well kept secret, but a southern person will steal the best and leave the rest.

Grits are hard to mess up.

Sheesh, will have to leave the 'puter and look up. I hope your shrimp are not getting warm!

Anne

[annecros]

Found it.

Bill Neal. Southern Cooking. Revised and Enlarged.

Respec'

Anne

Edited November 19, 2006 by annecros (log)

[andiesenji]

So it seems there's some intersection between the sets "grits" and "polenta." But is there union (all grits = polenta and all polenta = grits) or is polenta a subset of grits (all polenta = grits but not all grits = polenta)?

←

Excellent question, and perfectly reasonable.

Southern people do not necessarily depend upon reason. But you deserve an answer, and it is the best I can give you.

Yes, there is an intersection.

Yes, there is a union.

All grits = polenta, grits, and other various derivations of dried corn, and possibly other ground grains.

Considering history, all polenta = grits, all grits = either hominy or dried corn, all hominy = dried corn.

Corn culture. In my opinion it changed the world, with very little credit to this day to the origin.

I am beginning to sound a bit like Mayhaw Man and Okra, though I do agree that Okra is the universal answer to all the world's problems. Another story..

Just make a nice, lovely porridge, and enjoy.

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I agree with your opinion about corn/maize changing the world, or at least the western hemisphere because, without maize, it is questionable if the mesoamerican empires would have developed to the level they did as early as they did. The diversity of the varieties of corn is also remarkable as is the wide range of growing conditions which it tolerates. When you consider that it also has an unusual sex life, entirely dependent on humans for propogation for thousands of years, it is even more interesting.

Maize.