Espresso Machines

[Kenk]

Hello Steve,

Yes the wizzer is a black and decker $15-25 rotary grinder. I have been considering getting a good burr grinder but other priorities have taken hold.

I was an occasional coffee drinker but am drinking more of it now. I cannot drink coffee at work. Makes me even more jumpy than anyone wants.

I will give Caffe Vivace a try next time I am in Seattle. I hope to make it some time soon.

Are there any Spanish coffee brands being imported into North America?

[MsRamsey]

Are there any decent inexpensive models, or is it necessary to pay $500+?

[slkinsey]

I haven't used that one, Russ, but I can tell you one thing I don't like about the Rocky--each time you put the portafilter under and click the doser lever--you get a pre-set amount of ground coffee.  You cannot adjust it, you cannot see it, you can just click and click.

Hmmm... When I am using my Rocky, I always take the lid off of the empty doser chamber so I can look into it as I am grinding. Then I grind only enough coffee for the shot I am about to run. I have learned that this equals around two "heaping" doser slots for my double basket. YMMV, but that amount works fine for me. I like to have just a little more than I need so I can sweep the excess off the portafilter with my finger and make everything level before tamping. Anyway, after grinding into the doser, I simply pull the lever multiple times to sweep all the grinds out of the doser chamber and into the portafilter. You only get a "preset amount of coffee from the doser if you fill the doser chamber.

[slkinsey]

Are there any decent inexpensive models, or is it necessary to pay $500+?

No, there aren't any. And yes, it is necessary. IMO.

This is especially true if you are asking about the cost of a machine and a grinder. A high quality grinder is absolutely essential to getting your money's worth in performance from the machine. Espresso is a machine-based food, and the quality of the machine does directly influence the quality of the product. This makes espresso fundamentally different from most other kinds of food, where a talented cook can produce great quality even with crappy pots and pans.

[Steve Klc]

I just guessing here MsRamsey, but it is an educated guess from friends and from reading other forums: I think a majority of end users--not salespeople--who have been there, who balked a bit at the price, who over the years worked their way up through the pseudo-espresso coffee ranks and made due with less expensive machines, who resisted buying a $250 grinder, will tell you yes, your entry level machine is the $450 Silvia and $250 Rocky grinder. As a package. There might be adequate grinders now for less but I have a Rocky so I haven't actually stayed on top of LESS expensive grinders.

slkinsey, oh I take the lid off as well, and do much the same thing, but then you still have to click, click, click, click, click to get that around to the front, right? All those extra clicks irk me. And two cavities worth--sliced off by that little silver tab--is way less than 17 g--at least on my machine, because I weigh the empty portafilter before and after to the gram. Each pull of mine on the Rocky is 5-6 grams. That's three cavities worth and even then you get into a situation where there's more or less, especially if you want to pull a few doubles in succession. Then you do the short click and a bunch spills onto the base. Have you ever done this? Do you use a Silvia as well? I pull my doubles for 20 seconds and get 2 ounces or do you aim for something else?

I like sweeping a little off as well, smoothing with my finger, tamp, knock the edge, and re-tamp the small bit of loosened coffee lightly. This also doesn't address the inherent Rocky defect malachi mentioned which is the Rocky doesn't dose all of its grounds, stuff gets stuck in the corners and edges of each compartment, gets stale without very diligent brushing and sweeping and cleaning.

From reading your response, there is also a small chance you are not achieving what the "experts" might say is the ideal grind and amount and tamp for your machine--at a given portion size and time--if you are getting good results with less coffee. I mean, you might be able to get even better results. That was convoluted--but you know what I mean, right? Have you stepped down (grooved) your Rocky to the right setting for you, which is variable (as malachi said with different beans age and humidity) and then done the whole espresso machine process verifying initial weight, grind, tamp, temp, 20-25 second length of pull, 2 oz result they recommend you go through, to determine that your grind setting is actually correct?

You probably have. If so, am I also reading you correctly--your method is: keep an empty doser chamber, grind what looks like it would be two heaping cavities worth--this falls into one cavity under the chute and then spills left and right--then stop grinding and then click click click all the way around which would take like 10 or 12 clicks total and like two complete revolutions, no?

[Steve Klc]

I wonder if we all wouldn't be a little happier removing that silver piece inside the doser chamber?

[slkinsey]

slkinsey, oh I take the lid off as well, and do much the same thing, but then you still have to click, click, click, click, click to get that around to the front, right?  All those extra clicks irk me.  And two cavities worth--sliced off by that little silver tab--is way less than 17 g--at least on my machine, because I weigh the empty portafilter before and after to the gram.  Each pull of mine on the Rocky is 5-6 grams.

What I do is this: 1. open the doser chamber. 2. start the grinder. 3. when the first cavity is filled to "heaping," advance one click. 4. fill second chamber to "heaping" and turn off grinder. 5. Click the doser lever until all the coffee in the doser chamber has been swept into my portafilter. This is the amount of coffee that I have determined will fill my filterbasket all the way to the top, with a little bit extra above the rim. Sometimes a little extra spills over the portafilter onto the base. I do not consider this a major inconvenience.

Do you use a Silvia as well? I pull my doubles for 20 seconds and get 2 ounces or do you aim for something else?

I have calibrated mine to do do slightly less than 2 ounces (I prefer ristretto) in 23 seconds when I do a double shot. With my home-roasted coffee, this results in something akin to "warm coffee pudding" -- the crema is that thick.

I like sweeping a little off as well, smoothing with my finger, tamp, knock the edge, and re-tamp the small bit of loosened coffee lightly. This also doesn't address the inherent Rocky defect malachi mentioned which is the Rocky doesn't dose all of its grounds, stuff gets stuck in the corners and edges of each compartment, gets stale without very diligent brushing and sweeping and cleaning.

I do more or less the same thing: sweep/level, tamp, knock, re-tamp. To be honest, I am not terribly concerned about the possibility of .1% stale grinds that may come from what remains in my grinder. I have not been able to detect any difference in the espresso made from 100% "new" grinds or with this miniscule precentage of "old" grinds included.

From reading your response, there is also a small chance you are not achieving what the "experts" might say is the ideal grind and amount and tamp for your machine--at a given portion size and time--if you are getting good results with less coffee.  I mean, you might be able to get even better results. That was convoluted--but you know what I mean, right?  Have you stepped down (grooved) your Rocky to the right setting for you, which is variable (as malachi said with different beans age and humidity) and then done the whole espresso machine process verifying initial weight, grind, tamp, temp, 20-25 second length of pull, 2 oz result they recommend you go through, to determine that your grind setting is actually correct?

I think you misconstrued my earlier post. If anything I push the upper limit on the amount of coffee I use for each shot. I constantly have to resist the temptation to overfill the filter basket. Also, because I am a home roaster, I have even that much more control over the flow rate. I have found that different brands/ages of coffee will extract at different rates for the same grind calibration. Even for my home roasted coffee, I find that I like to adjust the grind one click finer when the coffee gets to be about a week old.

You probably have.  If so, am I also reading you correctly--your method is:  keep an empty doser chamber, grind what looks like it would be two heaping cavities worth--this falls into one cavity under the chute and then spills left and right--then stop grinding and then click click click all the way around which would take like 10 or 12 clicks total and like two complete revolutions, no?

Something like that, yes. See above. I have also been known to simply run the grinder and go into "continuous click mode" keeping my eye on the portafilter and stopping the grinder when it becomes full.

I don't know, but it strikes me that making a big deal out of having to click the doser lever a few extra times and the potential for <1% "old" grinds in each shot is making a mountain out of a molehill. I mean, if I were to buy a new Rocky today I'd buy the doserless model. But I certainly don't consider the doser model to be seriously flawed as a result of having a doser. It's still a great product and a great value.

Edited June 19, 2003 by slkinsey (log)

[Steve Klc]

Yes, I observe the same thing about beans from different suppliers as they age and grind settings, I bet so does malachi. After I thought it through and re-read your post--and I actually had to go to my Rocky and do it--I did figure out you were not using too little coffee but clicking and clicking all the way around again. I initially thought you were using just the two "cut off" portions for your double shot, which as I said, on my machine is like 12 g and probably on yours as well.

I like when you describe "warm coffee pudding." I want to try it. I want to do a dessert which emulates that.

However, you have neatly crystallized our distinction--which turns out is small. I do see it, after climbing the mountaintop this far, as highly desirable--for me not necessarily everyone--if I could eliminate the doser chamber and all that clicking around. It might be a mountain out of a mole hill, but it is click click click ad infinitum. Wasted and imprecise effort. Maybe the pastry chef in me--always looking for the cleaner, better, faster way to go about things is my undoing in this case. I mean, those dozen clicks around does get the job done but it has frustrated me since day one when I clicked around for my 36th time and third double. Sure the Rocky is the best option for the money and fine product. It's also flawed. It just kills me to know I can have the same Rocky (doserless) without all that inefficiency and un-necessary imprecision.

As I said, I'm going to see if removing that screen gets me a few clicks closer to home.

[slkinsey]

Hee... What you need is a grinder where you can hook the portafilter into a zeroed scale of some kind and set the scale for the weight of coffee grinds you want (I assume a gram scale with one significant digit would suffice, or should we bump it to two? ). Then, with the press of a button, the grinder could automatically dispense the weight of coffee grinds you specified.

Too bad it doesn't exist, actually...

Anyway, I think I'd like the doserless Rocky better as well. That said, the introduction of the doserless model might also be a great way for people who hesitate to spend 250 bucks on a coffee grinder to get a good deal on a used doser Rocky as people trade up.

Oh yea... and I call dibs on trying any warm coffee pudding dessert you come up with.

Edited June 19, 2003 by slkinsey (log)

[malachi]

Have you seen the Swift? Grinder/doser/tamper from La Marocchi?

So very nice.

Obviously overkill to a dramatic degree when it comes to a home setup.

[malachi]

Rossi model RR45A 80click settings

This is a precision Italian made commercial grinder built by Gino Rossi. It is a model RR45a.(110V AC) It is fully automatic and features an extremly accurate doser. The grind setting dial has been upgraded from a factory standard of 40 clicks to 80 clicks for enhanced grinding precision. Grinder is extremely well built, it has solid aluminum body with black enamel surface. Operation is extremely solid. With the exception of one small chip on the bottom edge, the paint is in perfect condition(no other scratches or blemishes). Grinder operates flawlessly and has never had any problems. The grinder has been extremely well maintained and has been carefully cleaned inside and out before being put on sale. This is a handsome and very solidly built grinder, one that you can be proud to own. If there are any further questions or for pictures please contact me through email(mlew@cs.ucr.edu). This model retails for $660 new(with a 40 click dial), i am asking for $390. Given the excellent condition of the machine and the upgraded grind settings i think this price is reasonable, but it's negotiable... go ahead make an offer.

(From coffeegeek.com)

EBay Auction by Whole Latte Love on returned Mazzer Mini

And it is worth watching Whole Latte Love's used section as sometimes doserless Rocky grinders show up.

[malachi]

Oh... and espressoparts.com is selling a couple black Mazzer minis at something around $350.

[carswell]

I'm hoping they'll come out with a doserless Mini.

Looks like your wish has been granted. Check out the Mazzer Mini-E:

Photo of Mazzer Mini-E

Grinder-doser MINI ELECTRONIC

Stepless micrometrical grinding adjustment

Electronic device to select the dose. It grinds on demand. Every dose of coffee is fresh. Single and double dose with independent adjustment

Power

250 Watt

Grinding blades (ref.189D)

Ø 64 mm (2½ inches)

Grinding blade speed

1400 rpm (50 Hz)

1600 rpm (60 Hz)

Coffee-bean container capacity

0.6 kg (1.3 lbs)

Dose adjustment

4-16 g (0.14-0.56 oz)

Net weight

9 kg (20 lbs)

Options

Support for tamping / Magnet with ring

It's not exactly doserless but has an adjustable doser that, unfortunately for you, tops out at 16 g. Still, 2 times 8.5 g would give you the magic number. As far as I know, it's not yet sold in North America, though it has been shown at a couple of coffee expos. No idea what it'll retail for. All Mini prices are forecast to rise soon, however, due to the shrinking dollar and the company's decision to stop producing the switch model, which runs about $200 less than the timer model.

[malachi]

Looks like I may soon have a Mazzer Mini for sale.

[mise en place]

Having had a Rocky grinder for about 2 years now, I would not give it a whole-hearted recommendation. First, the dosing mechanism is noisy and drives my wife nuts. The clackety-clack can be heard all over the house. Second, the base is too small and does not extend past the chute. Consdquently, you will always have coffee grounds on the counter. Third, the beans are constantly sticking in the hopper, which requires that the machine be given a hard shake to free them up and proceed with grinding. Given the weight of this thing, this is quite a nuisance. I'm seriously considering a Mazzer and selling the Rocky.

As for espresso machines, I've still got a Sylvia that I haven't got around to selling. It is in very good shape. I replaced it with an Isomac Millenium. The Isomac is much more consistent and has loads of steaming capability. It has a heat exchanger, so you can pull shots and steam simultaneously. I'll be keeping this machine for a long time.

[malachi]

Comparing the Isomac Millenium to the Silvia is kind of unfair given that the Millenium is, I believe, twice as expensive. Did you get yours plumbed in?

You won't regret the Mazzer. It's very nice.

[slkinsey]

Third, the beans are constantly sticking in the hopper, which requires that the machine be given a hard shake to free them up and proceed with grinding.

Hmmm... The only people I know who have this problem are those who use what I would consider overly-roasted beans to make their espresso. This is to say, beans roasted to the extent that they are fully black and very oily on the surface, which makes them stick together. It is not clear to me that beans roasted to this extent will ever be free of sticking problems, no matter what the design of the grinder hopper may be. I personally like to roast my beans for espresso to what I would consider to be, and have observed to be, the typical North/Central Italian espresso roast... just a hair darker than "full city." Something like this:

or this ... well, in between really.

I have never once experienced any problems with beans roasted to this degree sticking together in my Rocky. In the South of Italy, they do have a darker/oiler roast, but even this is not roasted as far as the typical American "espresso roast" which is something that to my taste is only worthwhile for milk-based coffe drinks (small wonder that this accounts for >90% of American espresso consumption).

[mise en place]

Comparing the Isomac Millenium to the Silvia is kind of unfair given that the Millenium is, I believe, twice as expensive. Did you get yours plumbed in?

The comparison is not fair. But the ease and quality of espresso produced with the Isomac is much better. Of course, the Isomac is about twice the price--and worth it in my book.

The only people I know who have this problem are those who use what I would consider overly-roasted beans to make their espresso.

Beans that are excessively oily do indeed stick in the hopper. I usually roast my own beans in a Hearthware. I've been roasting Malabar Gold just to the point where it gets shiny as per the good Dr. John's directions. It still sticks in the hopper even when nearly full. This morning I was grinding some decaf for my wife I bought at a local shop that roasts on-site. This is a light roast made for a drip coffee-maker. It stuck twice.

[slkinsey]

The only people I know who have this problem are those who use what I would consider overly-roasted beans to make their espresso.

Beans that are excessively oily do indeed stick in the hopper. I usually roast my own beans in a Hearthware. I've been roasting Malabar Gold just to the point where it gets shiny as per the good Dr. John's directions. It still sticks in the hopper even when nearly full. This morning I was grinding some decaf for my wife I bought at a local shop that roasts on-site. This is a light roast made for a drip coffee-maker. It stuck twice.

Hmmm... Interesting. All I can say is that I have never had this problem with my Rocky. Not even once. But, obviously, YM does V.

[Ron Johnson]

I got a FrancisFrancis X5 at a discount through an Illy promotion. I also had to buy a year's supply of Illy pods.

The machine is awesome and works so well. I love it. The surprise for me is the quality of the pods. My espressi made from the pods are as good as any I have had in the US. The crema is picture perfect everytime.

FrancisFrancis also has great customer service. When I had a question about the machine, I emailed the company. A very nice person called me at my office ten minutes after I sent the email. She explained everything to me and apologized that it wasn't better covered in the instruction manual.

[Steve Klc]

Mise--how often do you empty the hopper of beans, take out those screws, remove the plastic hopper and peek in at the burrs? If you find you have to shake the machine, it might be time to do that and remove some of the grit that has accumulated inside. I bet you won't have to shake again for a long while. In two years of use--how many times have you had to do this?

Also, what grind setting do you have it cranked down to?

[Jim Dixon]

The surprise for me is the quality of the pods.

I was surprised, too. They make really good shots. I went for the whole beans from Illy (saves me $17/month) but get pods from a co-worker who drinks less than I do. I'm tempted to switch....the ease of using the pods is holding me back so far. I find it a little too easy to make a second or third cup.

I'm also lovin' my X5, but still feel a little bad about retiring my old Krups semi-commercial. I'm using it as a good reason to think about finding some land out in the gorge so we'll actually need a second espresso machine.

Jim

[russ parsons]

by the way, everyone should check out this month's vogue for jeff steingarten's piece on roasting beans. truly, this way madness lies ... and no one does that more entertainingly than jeff.

[mise en place]

Mise--how often do you empty the hopper of beans, take out those screws, remove the plastic hopper and peek in at the burrs?  If you find you have to shake the machine, it might be time to do that and remove some of the grit that has accumulated inside. I bet you won't have to shake again for a long while. In two years of use--how many times have you had to do this?

Also, what grind setting do you have it cranked down to?

I've cleaned the burrs twice. Once after about 4 months of steady use, and they were quite clean when I opened them up. They didn't really need a cleaning. I waited another 6 months, and they were still looking quite good. Not dirty enough to keeps beans from sticking.

The setting doesn't seem to matter. I can grind for drip at 4 and they still stick. Oh well. Some day I'm going to get a Mazzer. Actually, if I can sell the Silvia and Rocky I should about have enough for a Mazzer.

[trillium]

Silvia and $250 Rocky grinder.  As a package. There might be adequate grinders now for less but I have a Rocky so I haven't actually stayed on top of LESS expensive grinders.

Sure there is. We have a hand-cranked Salton burr grinder we got for free from a guy that got too old and wussy to hand grind and bought a Rocky. It's more then adequate, but you have to work for your coffee. He misses it, but doesn't miss the hand cranking. And it goes just perfectly era-wise with our Olympia Cremina, which is a fantastic machine, you just can't buy them anymore.

regards,

trillium