Indian Breads

Vikram · July 3, 2003

I have a question for the experts (since I am not one) - I am planning an East Indian dinner for 15-20 people in a few weeks. I haven't got the menu set in stone yet (suggestions are welcome), but will serve it buffet style , with tables set up to eat at on the lawn. I am wondering about breads.

Please, please, I don't want to be rude, but 'East Indian' - in the sense that I think you are using - is a completely crap term. I know its used in the US to distinguish Indian dishes from West Indian dishes, but I think on egullet.com at least one could be entitled not to see it.

As the original, I think Indian dishes should just be called 'Indian', with 'West Indian' for dishes from the West Indies. Ideally of course you should clarify it further and say North Indian, if you're talking about the generic Indian food mostly eaten in the US, or South Indian or East Indian if that happens to be what you are serving (I suppose even more ideally, you should stick to the particular names like Malayali or Bengali, but a certain amount of regional interplay is acceptable, I think).

And yes, I see where the objection will be coming from - what about food from West India like Maharashtrian, Gujarati, Goan, etc. Well, I think in that case we could agree to say not West Indian, but Western Indian (lets forget that that term could probably be applied to lots of the Indian food one gets in the West (UK/US), but not in India like chicken tikka masala).

The reason one needs to be specific is that there really is something called East Indian food which, _very_ confusingly, is made in West India, in Bombay and the region immediately around it. Its the cooking of the local Christian community, mostly descendents of converts made first by the Portuguese when they owned Bombay, and then the British after they received it as part of Catherine of Braganza's dowry.

For a long time this community just called itself Christian, until Bombay's economic boom in the 19th century (because of the American Civil War, how do you like that connection?) started attracting Goan Christians to the city. Not particularly pleased at this influx, the local Christians decided to rechristen themselves and, defying any geographical logic, chose to call themselves 'East Indians' as a rather dubious way to show their loyalty to the British East India company.

The food is distinguished from Goan cooking through several ways -less use of toddy vinegar or specifically Goan flavourings like triphala berries. Its slightly blander, reflecting the British influence rather than the undiluted Portuguese influence in Goa. What its best known for though is bottle masala - a spice mixture made from over 12-15 different local spices, which are dried and ground once every year and stored in old beer bottles (hence the name). its great stuff, savoury, but not hot and if that is indeed what you're using, my grovelling apologies. But otherwise, please just stick with Indian,

Vikram

PS: And as far as your bread query goes, parathas store and heat up quite well because of the fat that goes into making them.

BBhasin · July 3, 2003

After the last, very informative post I would be curious to learn what forever_young_ca had in mind with respect to an East Indian spread.

forever_young_ca · July 3, 2003

Please, please, I don't want to be rude, but 'East Indian' - in the sense that I think you are using - is a completely crap term. I know its used in the US to distinguish Indian dishes from West Indian dishes, but I think on egullet.com at least one could be entitled not to see it.

I did not mean to be rude, sorry if I offended. Being from Vancouver, Canada, the term "East Indian" is commonly used to distinguish from our west coast natives. I was simply using the lexicon that I am used to and that is accepted by everyone where I live.

Thank you for your suggestions regarding parathas. I have tried rewarming them. However, I did find that they developed a greasy texture that they did not have when they were fresh. They also tasted slightly "doughy" to me. Perhaps I did something wrong? :blink:

BBhasin · July 3, 2003

forever young canada,

regarding your parathas.

Since you are cooking for only 15-20 people you will only need about 10 parathas or so, as I am sure will also have some rice dish for your guests. Also usually after appetizers, 10 parathats is all that I think you will need.

Here is a techique which has worked well for me.

Roll out your layered paratha and cook it on a gentle tawa or griddle. Cook it only till the dough changes color. You want to make sure the dough is cooked but you do not want to brown your paratha. Remove and save. Tip.Do not stack right away on each other but do so only after you have air cooled them.

You can do these pathathas days in advance. Refrigerate them or freeze them in a freezer bag.

You can finish them just when you want to serve them. there are two ways...

1. Heat them on a tawa/griddle when they begin to color fry with a little butter or oil.

2. Finish cooking them on a gas flame flipping them with a tong. Remove when browned ( to the extent YOU like them) baste with a little butter and squish them a bit to open out the layers. Your paratha will be almost as if it came out of a tandoor. If you like you can also sprinke some dried powdered mint on your paratha.

Well have a fun party and save some leftovers for me.

forever_young_ca · July 3, 2003

Thanks BBhasin - I think I stacked them when warm and made them go soggy.

I must get to work now, but will post some tentative thoughts on my menu tonight. I would really appreciated any help and/or suggestions.

Thank you for your interest in my post. I have been going through my limited selection of cookbooks - several M. Jaffery, Monica B., and a few other miscellanouse bits and pieces. I have also been going through the various receipes on this thread to get some ideas. As I said before, I am not an expert but have cooked and enjoyed eating Indian food for about 30 years. My first exposure was through a boyfriend that was from the Punjab while I was in University - yes I just dated myself ! :biggrin: I have a few receipes from those days as well. I have been fortunate enough to visit India a few times over the years as well.

Because of the large number of people I was thinking of serving it buffet style - with some stand up appies to start.

More details tonight. Please do not be toooooooooo hard on me if I show my ignorance on the subject. I know this is a very sophisticated group in this forum, but I would love to learn from the experts! :smile:

Vikram · July 4, 2003

An Indian friend of mine from New York who was passing through Bombay last night told me that its quite easy to get frozen uncooked parottas, the divinely flaky Kerala version of parathas, in Indian shops in NY. She said that all you need to do is put them on a hot griddle, flip after a point and you'll have wonderful, although hugely calorific, parottas. Just before leaving for India she had made a big batch of beef curry and got a stack of parottas and left them for her husband to work his way through until she returned. Has anyone on this list tried this?

Vikram

forever_young_ca · July 4, 2003

BBhasin - I was thinking about your suggestions regarding my parathas. While they were delicious while fresh and warm they were disappointing when reheated. I think I did two things wrong - 1) I believe that I cooked them on too high a heat, thereby not quite cooking the flour 2) Stacking them while warm, causing them to go soggy. I will try your suggestions.

Thank you also for your interest in my menu. Unfortunately, due to unforseen personal circumstances, the dinner was cancelled yesterday. It will perhaps get revived at a later date.

This is my first experience on posting to this forum and I will hestitate to do so again. I am not going to participate in a debate on this, but I feel that I cannot let Vikram's reply go without comments. I posted an innocent question in a "food" forum using a terminology that is well accepted where I live. Vikram's response was unrelated to my question and based on certain incorrect assumptions about where I live and the background of the usage of the term "East Indian". Perhaps I am too sensitive, but I thought the post was vitriolic and unnecessary. I will continue to read the informative food related posts with interest and continue to cook and enjoy the recipes from this forum, but will certainly think twice about posting. Life is just too short! :sad:

BBhasin · July 6, 2003

This is my first experience on posting to this forum and I will hestitate to do so again. I am not going to participate in a debate on this, but I feel that I cannot let Vikram's reply go without comments. I posted an innocent question in a "food" forum using a terminology that is well accepted where I live. Vikram's response was unrelated to my question and based on certain incorrect assumptions about where I live and the background of the usage of the term "East Indian". Perhaps I am too sensitive, but I thought the post was vitriolic and unnecessary. I will continue to read the informative food related posts with interest and continue to cook and enjoy the recipes from this forum, but will certainly think twice about posting. Life is just too short!

I was saddened to read your post, forever_young_ca. I reflected upon it for a while about what I personally was doing on these forums? Conclusion... learning more about Indian cuisine from all the folks out there, sharing my personal knowlege and experiences and making friends ( met some wonderful people here) and enlightening the uninitiated and setting them straight about this wonderful cuisine ( to the extent I know). But on the other hand there were others who got under my skin by their attitude and irked me but they had great knowledge so I ignore their attitude and continue to benifit from their knowlege.

I don't like it when our friend Vikram puts down north Indian or punjabi cuisine or says that restaurants serving gustaba are 'crap'. But I find he is immensly well versed in Western and Southern Indian cuisine and I am grateful that he shares his knowlege on these forums.

So don't run away, there are a lot of wonderful folks here, like Suvir Saran, Monica, Prasad 2, to name a few, besides others I do not know yet.

I hope to see you around.

Anna N · July 6, 2003

I, too, was saddened to read your post, forever young. First, I honestly don't believe Vikram meant it in any way as a personal attack on you but as an informative explanation of why the term disturbs some people. I, too, find it necessary (and didn't even know it could be offensive!) to distinguish between East Indian and West Indian grocery stores - because, in fact, that is the way they advertise themselves in my locale. I, too, have felt very much that some posts aimed at me are insulting and demeaning but often, the very people who seem to belittle me, are so incredibly knowledgeable and, many times, provide me with information I simply could not get elsewhere. Stick around - post to your heart's content - I can assure you, if it seems you are seriously being personally attacked lots of posters will quickly come to your defence. Now I just accept that some of my teachers are grumpy but damn, they are good!

Anna N

indiachef · July 7, 2003

BBhasin - I was thinking about your suggestions regarding my parathas. While they were delicious while fresh and warm they were disappointing when reheated. I think I did two things wrong - 1) I believe that I cooked them on too high a heat, thereby not quite cooking the flour 2) Stacking them while warm, causing them to go soggy. I will try your suggestions.
Thank you also for your interest in my menu. Unfortunately, due to unforseen personal circumstances, the dinner was cancelled yesterday. It will perhaps get revived at a later date.
This is my first experience on posting to this forum and I will hestitate to do so again. I am not going to participate in a debate on this, but I feel that I cannot let Vikram's reply go without comments. I posted an innocent question in a "food" forum using a terminology that is well accepted where I live. Vikram's response was unrelated to my question and based on certain incorrect assumptions about where I live and the background of the usage of the term "East Indian". Perhaps I am too sensitive, but I thought the post was vitriolic and unnecessary. I will continue to read the informative food related posts with interest and continue to cook and enjoy the recipes from this forum, but will certainly think twice about posting. Life is just too short!

:rolleyes:

How true, little knowledge is misleading.

Who do we blame for this? Without hesitation the colonials and the Imperialists.

And yes there is cause to be upset for having being told the truth, eh!

And yes what is well accepted is not a matter or Truth.

And yes there probably is no such thing as East Indian in the larger picture of things. The East Indian as Vikram pointed out, do exist and peacefully fish in Bombay.

And yes Vikram pleads not to use the term East Indian, not once but twice, having been regimented, the pleads come in so naturally.

And yes there is more to Indian foods than the Plain old Naan and Sag panner and the crappy foods that come out from North American Indian Restaurants.

And yes we never stood up determined, so our foods are called Curries

And yes Curry does not exist in India

And yes Curry does exist for the Colonials and the fabled East Indians

And yes, the menu in an Indian restaurant is always spiced up with Chef's own Creation and some mystic curry mix

And yes all this has nothing to do with foods but with identity

And yes some on this forum stand up and profess

And yes Baingan Bhurtha is termed as smoked Eggplant curry and RATATOUILLE is RATATOUILLE in India

And yes and yes and yes, there never was an option eh!

:rolleyes:

Vikram · July 7, 2003

I am not going to participate in a debate on this, but I feel that I cannot let Vikram's reply go without comments. I posted an innocent question in a "food" forum using a terminology that is well accepted where I live. Vikram's response was unrelated to my question and based on certain incorrect assumptions about where I live and the background of the usage of the term "East Indian". Perhaps I am too sensitive, but I thought the post was vitriolic and unnecessary. I will continue to read the informative food related posts with interest and continue to cook and enjoy the recipes from this forum, but will certainly think twice about posting. Life is just too short!

Please let me apologise if my post offended you - I certainly did NOT mean it as a personal attack in anyway. I guess my writing style, which is probably linked to my professional food writing style, does tend to the slightly acerbic and perhaps that carried onto this post, but I really don't see how that translates into 'vitriolic'. (And yes, I do think you're being a bit too sensitive).

I agree that my post was unrelated to your query and perhaps 'unnecessary', but then isn't that part of the interest of forums like this, that discussions can lead in unexpected directions?

The question of contexts is an interesting one - where does one respect the context a person is coming from and where can one expect the person to respect _your_ context? No easy answers here I guess and to prove that I just came across East Indian in a different context. This was in a petition about a lawyer of Indian origin now in jail in Arizona. The petition referred to him as East Indian and I think in this political context it made sense, since 'Indian' in the 'Native American' has still not been entirely superseded by the latter term in political contexts.

The context here is a specifically Indian forum on a forum devoted to food knowledge, so I think I could fairly argue - as I said in my mail - that the term Indian takes precedence. (It would be interesting though if Native Americans started posting on their food!) and my post was just trying to point that out.

I don't like it when our friend Vikram puts down north Indian or punjabi cuisine or says that restaurants serving gustaba are 'crap'.

Correction: I didn't say restaurants serving gustaba are crap, I said restaurants in Goa serving it are likely to be crap, which if you have any experience of resort cooking in India is a fairly safe prediction.

I agree I have a bit of a bee in the bonnet about north Indian food, but again its not actual north Indian/punjabi food I'm talking about. I love genuine north Indian/punjabi food and cook it most of the time (South Indian dishes are often too much effort to fit into a busy week). What I can't stand and will always attack is the bastardised version that has spread its poisonous, over-spiced, all-made-from-the-same-onion-base, swimming-in-butter tentacles into 'Indian' restaurants around the world.

Such food is even more of an insult to north Indian/punjabi than to the other Indian styles of cooking which it merely overlooks rather than perverts in such a horrifying way.

Vikram

Monica Bhide · July 7, 2003

BBhasin - I was thinking about your suggestions regarding my parathas. While they were delicious while fresh and warm they were disappointing when reheated. I think I did two things wrong - 1) I believe that I cooked them on too high a heat, thereby not quite cooking the flour 2) Stacking them while warm, causing them to go soggy. I will try your suggestions.
Thank you also for your interest in my menu. Unfortunately, due to unforseen personal circumstances, the dinner was cancelled yesterday. It will perhaps get revived at a later date.
This is my first experience on posting to this forum and I will hestitate to do so again. I am not going to participate in a debate on this, but I feel that I cannot let Vikram's reply go without comments. I posted an innocent question in a "food" forum using a terminology that is well accepted where I live. Vikram's response was unrelated to my question and based on certain incorrect assumptions about where I live and the background of the usage of the term "East Indian". Perhaps I am too sensitive, but I thought the post was vitriolic and unnecessary. I will continue to read the informative food related posts with interest and continue to cook and enjoy the recipes from this forum, but will certainly think twice about posting. Life is just too short!

Please dont take anything here personally - online boards tend to be a hard medium sometimes because they do not accurately reflect emotions.

Do stay and more importantly do post. It is because of folks like you that this forum is successful.

So when is that dinner rescheduled for? Perhpas you would like to try out some new recipes I am working on?

Suvir Saran · July 7, 2003

I lost my paternal grandma a week or so ago. I have been away from this forum. My apologies to all parties.

I would like to second what Monica has said above.

And just as Monica has offered you recipes, I too would be happy to send you whatever you may want and I could have of interest for you.

Welcome to this forum, and our unique take on things largely known and understood and misunderstood, is also what makes life charming.

I hope we can all continue to share and learn and thrive here. I am always impressed by the brilliance that each of our members brings to this forum as also the many others on this site.

I shall now go read the thread in more detail.

forever_young_ca · July 10, 2003

So when is that dinner rescheduled for? Perhpas you would like to try out some new recipes I am working on?

Thank you for your kind offer Monica. :smile: The dinner was to be in July, but is now cancelled. Because of too many other summer committments in August and holidays in September I am not sure when it will be rescheduled. Will keep you posted.

I will look forward to any new book that you publish. I have enjoyed the last one immensely.

Sorry it took me several days to respond, but I have been out of town.

fresh_a · July 11, 2003

Here in France, you'll find every Indian restaurant has cheese nans, a nan bread with Vache Qui Rit cheese inside, which is very tasty, but which I haven't seen elsewhere. Does this exist in England, the US, etc? If so, I havenn't seen it..

anil · July 11, 2003

... Does this exist in England, the US, etc? If so, I havenn't seen it..

Nyet :smile:

JosephB · July 11, 2003

Kalastanya in NYC makes a great Fenugreek Paratha. I'd love to make my own. Anyone have recipe?
Joseph,
Welcome to eGullet and the Indian forum.
I am posting below a recipe given to me by a friend from Bombay. I have never tested the recipe, so I hereby issue a disclaimer. I think it should work fine. Use very little water to begin with, since you can always add more. If you want, please email me, and I can send you a few recipes for Indian flatbreads that I have written, maybe you can compare them and ensure that what you do is similar.
I love Theplas (what many Indian stores sell today and call Methi Paratha). They come from Gujarat, a state in Western India. The state where Mahatma Gandhi was born and lived for a large chunk of his life.
Keep us posted on how the bread comes out. Looking forward to reading more of your posts.
Theplas(Fenugreek Scented Flat Bread from Gujarat)
1 cup chapati flour (whole wheat flour)
1/4 cup chaawal kaa atta (rice flour)
1/4 cup besan (gram flour)
1/2 cup tightly packed haraa dhaniya (cilantro), washed and chopped very finely
1 bunch haree methi(fenugreek leaves) or substitute with 1/2 cup Kasoori Methi, washed and chopped finely
1/4 teaspoon haldi (turmeric powder)
1 tsp. laal mirchi (red chili powder)
1 tsp. til (sesame seeds)
1/2 tsp. zeera (cumin seeds)
3 green chilies, minced very finely
2 tbsp. canola
salt to taste
Flour for dusting
Canola to shallow fry
Mix all three flours together and sieve. Use a fork and mix the flours nicely. Set aside.
Mix all ingredients except the oil for shallow frying.
Knead into a soft pliable dough using as much water as required. Use your knuckles and your wrists to really knead the dough well. The more you knead the softer and more pliable the dough will get.
Divide this dough into 12 equal rounds.
Roll these rounds into circles, about 6" in diameter. Use flour to dust the circles as you roll them.
Heat a skillet or a griddle, shallow fry these circles by applying a little oil on both sides. Fry until cooked. Drain on paper towels and let cook to room temperature.
Repeat for all 12 rounds.
Store these flat breads in an air-tight container.
Eat with a pickle of your choice or with some raita.

Suvir,

Thank you for the welcome and the recipe, which sounds divine. I'll pick up this week the ingredients I don't already have and try it next weekend. I'll be sure to post some photos.

--JOe

Tonyfinch · July 12, 2003

Here in France, you'll find every Indian restaurant has cheese nans, a nan bread with Vache Qui Rit cheese inside, which is very tasty, but which I haven't seen elsewhere. Does this exist in England, the US, etc? If so, I havenn't seen it..

No they do not exist in England. But the French do not have a clue about Indian food (or any food other than French) and have a need to Frenchify everything to keep it within their monocultural perspective-so:French cheese in the naan.

Some Sikhs we know who run an Indian restaurant in Vienna have to make all the meat dishes with pork. Pork is also unheard of in Indian restaurants in the UK. But they say that if they do not put pork on the menu the Austrians simply won't eat there-another example of the same thing.

fresh_a · July 14, 2003

But French people don't own Indian restaurants, Indian and Sri Lankan people do...

Tonyfinch · July 20, 2003

But French people don't own Indian restaurants, Indian and Sri Lankan people do...

It's not about who owns the restaurants. It's about who eats in them. The majority of customers in Indian restaurants are not Indian (or Sri Lankan). They have to cook food that people want to eat. And in France that means cooking with cheese and in Vienna it means cooking with pork. If it were up to them they wouldn't cook with either product (I don't count paneer as cheese in the French sense).

Edited July 20, 2003 by Tonyfinch (log)

fresh_a · July 20, 2003

. But the French do not have a clue about Indian food (or any food other than French) and have a need to Frenchify everything to keep it within their monocultural perspective-so:French cheese in the naan.
It's not the French doing it, but the Indian and Sri Lankan restaurant owners bending to the local tastes, they are not French so it has nothing to do with them pressing a French "monocultural perspective", just a choice in changing one or two menu items .... Hasn't this happened in England as well? Or is the Indian cuisine in the UK totally pure?
By the way, the Nan with Vache qui Rit is delicious...

Edited July 20, 2003 by fresh_a (log)

Tonyfinch · July 20, 2003

It's not the French doing it, but the Indian and Sri Lankan restaurant owners bending to the local tastes,

fresh-a, I'm not sure what you're not getting here. Cheese and pork are rarely, if ever found in on Indian menus in the UK or on the Indian subcontinent (or most of it). The owners are cooking with these products because their market demands it. They have to "bend to local taste" otherwise thier business suffers. And in France local taste clearly demands cheese in the naan. Nobody in the UK would dream of demanding such a product from an Indian restaurant

In the UK the vast majority of Indian restaurants are in fact run by Bangladeshis who cook a well established curry house rota for a largely post pub working class market. In London a few Indian restaurants break the mold and there is a wider range of regional and authentically cooked cuisines from the sub-continent.

In terms of multi culturalism, this is an area where France is a hundred years behind the UK. Not just in terms of restaurants but in all respects. Lacking a highly successful codified cuisine of our own we have far more respect for a far wider range of cuisines than the French have.

Simon Majumdar · July 20, 2003

Not quite so Tone

Pork is often found in Goa. That being said it is rarely found in the hybrid menus of the rest of the world or in other parts of India

S

Tonyfinch · July 20, 2003

Pork is often found in Goa.

Yes, well I said most of India. Even in Goa I didn't encounter it very often. A counter example to the French one would be if us Rosbifs demanded beef on Indian restaurant menus. But we do not.

Edited July 20, 2003 by Tonyfinch (log)

fresh_a · July 20, 2003

I'm not "getting" at anything, just wanted to clarify the fact that the French have nothing to do with "Frenchifying" and pushing their "monoculturism" in Indian restaurants, as these restaurants are not owned by French. The restaurants are, simply, catering to the local market to some extent. I was just wondering, as well, if anyone out there might provide me with any examples of "non-Indian" menu items in the UK. Just for curiosity's sake.

And I, as a Rosbif myself, have no interest in promoting French culture.

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