New Yorkan Cuisine

[Suzanne F]

Soba -- well, there's also Dok Suni's more upscale sibling, Do Hwa, on Carmine Street. And Kori, on Church Street in Tribeca. But yes, their food is Korean-based rather than real Korean. Which is precisely what makes them New Yorkan.

From the very little I know (ten years ago I worked with a Korean-born intern who graciously shared the lunches her mother packed ) Cho Dang Gol is the real deal. And do they love it there when we order stuff like boiled pork belly with raw oysters -- "Oh, you like it? You are willing to try it? Oh, thank you, thank you."

My theory is that cooks of immigrant cuisines want SO MUCH that other groups should like their food,* that yes, they change it based on what they imagine others would like: tone down the spicing, subsititute "more familiar" ingredients, etc. until it isn't really their food anymore. As had been said before in this thread (probably by me ) THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT NEW YORKAN.

*oops, that's my NYan linguistic background popping out: I want you should . . .

[herbacidal]

What I meant to imply was that I don't think this discussion group - and I include myself - has any great contribution to make to the field of sociology, and should perhaps stick more closely to what it does well. As an example, "Jews have a family unity ethic " strikes me as an assertion with little explanatory value; I mean, Chinese people don't?  Mexican people don't?  Unless these debates are conducted with some theoretical rigor, we run the risk of coming across as ill-informed, patronizing and smug.  We're better off coming across that way on the subject of food.

i beg to differ.

i've been following the debate with much interest.

i would much rather listen to the opinions of intelligent individuals who have educated themselves on a topic than to academians purported to be experts on that topic. I think they bring much more to the table.

i'm waiting for the right opportunity to make parallels to chinese food, culture, and immigration to the U.S.

[Pan]

Soba -- well, there's also Dok Suni's more upscale sibling, Do Hwa, on Carmine Street.

More sedate, but I found the prices pretty much the same in one visit there (Dok Suni's is around my corner, so I've had their food frequently, though often as takeout).

[Pan]

lissome:

Wassamada Pan: don't think this thread can be salvaged?

Perhaps, but it's a lot neater to discuss specific restaurants in detail in their own threads.

And I think there is a tenement thread.  haven't been.

Oh. Perhaps I'll do a search.

[SobaAddict70]

Soba -- well, there's also Dok Suni's more upscale sibling, Do Hwa, on Carmine Street.

I knew I was forgetting something. Jenny had opened a similar restaurant but I had forgotten what the name of it was.

You know a cuisine has hit the mainstream when you can go to a Wal-Mart and find (insert your favorite or obscure dish here) in the frozen food section.

Thank god Korean food hasn't yet become mainstream.

Cheers,

Soba

Edited April 1, 2003 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[alacarte]

In thinking about it, I disagree theat Arties Deli is a deli at all.  It's just a Jewish theme restaurant like Hard Rock and Brooklyn Diner.  And we've had Zabar's for an eternity longer than Artie's.

What constitutes a deli? Aha! a new question.

In my opinion, a deli is defined by KOSHER. Ever tried to find a kosher deli in NYC? They are a vanishing breed -- only a handful left. Some of the ones you'd least expect (i.e. Katz's) -- not kosher. Therefore, not the real deli experience, despite their fabulous slogan: "Send a Salami to your boy in the Army." (hmm, that hits a little too close to home just now.)

I had the experience of organizing a family reunion trip (about 25 people) --walking tour of the Lower East Side. Lunch, of course, was a major production. I had a devil of a time finding a place that was kosher & could accommodate seating for 25 people. (2nd Ave Deli rocks, but wouldn't reserve for such a large group).

End result? Katz's.

[elyse]

Er, what's a Haz-Mat?

Some kind of bureaucratic animal?

Cheers,

Soba

Hazardous Material suit. What they wear in nuclear waste disposal facilities.

Sorry to be a pain in the ass, but a haz mat is just the hazerdous material part, and it can be anything from decaying food/waste to pesticides to building materials etc.. You can don the suit if you see fit.

[rozrapp]

In thinking about it, I disagree theat Arties Deli is a deli at all.  It's just a Jewish theme restaurant like Hard Rock and Brooklyn Diner.  And we've had Zabar's for an eternity longer than Artie's.

What constitutes a deli? Aha! a new question.

In my opinion, a deli is defined by KOSHER. Ever tried to find a kosher deli in NYC? They are a vanishing breed -- only a handful left. Some of the ones you'd least expect (i.e. Katz's) -- not kosher. Therefore, not the real deli experience, despite their fabulous slogan: "Send a Salami to your boy in the Army." (hmm, that hits a little too close to home just now.)

I had the experience of organizing a family reunion trip (about 25 people) --walking tour of the Lower East Side. Lunch, of course, was a major production. I had a devil of a time finding a place that was kosher & could accommodate seating for 25 people. (2nd Ave Deli rocks, but wouldn't reserve for such a large group).

End result? Katz's.

My Random House Unabridged Dictionary defines the term "delicatessen" as follows:

1. a store selling foods already prepared or requiring little preparation for serving, as cooked meats, cheese, salads and the like.  2. Informal: the food products sold in such a store or at a counter.

Thus, deli does not have to be kosher. So, for example, supermarkets have "deli" counters selling both kosher and non-kosher deli products. Of course, many delis, like the Second Avenue Deli, have expanded to become "restaurants" serving much more than just deli. Saying that Katz's is not a "real deli experience" because it isn't kosher is ridiculous. There's nothing not real about it. In the end, the most important question is: How good is the quality of the deli served in a particular establishment? In that respect, most people feel that Katz's scores very high.

[Pan]

Rozrapp:

As I follow the subthread Alacarte addressed, the subject was really Jewish delis. I submit that, in that context, the remark that they are defined by being kosher makes a whole lot more sense than if you bring up a dictionary definition that applies equally to non-Jewish German delicatessens and so forth.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Saying that Katz's is not a "real deli experience" because it isn't kosher is ridiculous. There's nothing not real about it

Haven't you read the plating/presentation thread? It's mind over matter. If they hung a Star of David at Katz's but didn't change the meat, would people think it's a real deli then?

Edited April 7, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[rozrapp]

Rozrapp:

As I follow the subthread Alacarte addressed, the subject was really Jewish delis. I submit that, in that context, the remark that they are defined by being kosher makes a whole lot more sense than if you bring up a dictionary definition that applies equally to non-Jewish German delicatessens and so forth.

Pan,

To Stefanyb's question, "So, what constitutes a deli?" Alacarte answered, "In my opinion, a deli is defined by KOSHER." So, call me dense, but I interpreted Stefanyb's question to mean: What does each person think when referring to a place that's called a deli? Even though the term "Jewish" was used in Elyse's post (about Artie's Deli), that does not mean it has to apply to Stefanyb's question. So as far as Alacarte's response is concerned, I read that to be her own definition or view. You can choose to disgard the dictionary definition if you wish. All I know is that when people line up at the deli counter in my local supermarket, they are definitely not thinking "Jewish" or "kosher."

Edited April 7, 2003 by rozrapp (log)

[Pan]

You can choose to disgard the dictionary definition if you wish.  All I know is that when people line up at the deli counter in my local supermarket, they are definitely not thinking "Jewish" or "kosher."

Of course I never implied they did, nor did I ignore the dictionary definition.

[elyse]

Pan,

To Stefanyb's question, "So, what constitutes a deli?" Alacarte answered, "In my opinion, a deli is defined by KOSHER."  So, call me dense, but I interpreted Stefanyb's question to mean: What does each person think when referring to a place that's called a deli?  Even though the term "Jewish" was used in Elyse's post (about Artie's Deli), that does not mean it has to apply to Stefanyb's question.  So as far as Alacarte's response is concerned, I read that to be her own definition or view.  You can choose to disgard the dictionary definition if you wish.  All I know is that when people line up at the deli counter in my local supermarket, they are definitely not thinking "Jewish" or "kosher."

Yes. I meant Jewish as in Artie's, not all delis. Not that a deli has to serve food Jewish people eat. Not that it has to be kosher. I was just thinking about Artie's and how New York needs another theme restaurant like it needs to deplete the mental institutions of their patients. Again. And that is... not at all.

[stefanyb]

Pan,

To Stefanyb's question, "So, what constitutes a deli?" Alacarte answered, "In my opinion, a deli is defined by KOSHER."  So, call me dense, but I interpreted Stefanyb's question to mean: What does each person think when referring to a place that's called a deli?  Even though the term "Jewish" was used in Elyse's post (about Artie's Deli), that does not mean it has to apply to Stefanyb's question.  So as far as Alacarte's response is concerned, I read that to be her own definition or view.  You can choose to disgard the dictionary definition if you wish.  All I know is that when people line up at the deli counter in my local supermarket, they are definitely not thinking "Jewish" or "kosher."

Yes. I meant Jewish as in Artie's, not all delis. Not that a deli has to serve food Jewish people eat. Not that it has to be kosher. I was just thinking about Artie's and how New York needs another theme restaurant like it needs to deplete the mental institutions of their patients. Again. And that is... not at all.

When I was growing up in Brooklyn we did not define deli as necessarily kosher and also not necessarily Jewish. Actually, and this is quite some years ago, we often didn't shorten the word delicatessen at all. When we did, there were kosher deli's, German deli's and Italian deli's.........probably others as well.

However, when we planned for dinner other than what my mother prepared, there were only a couple of choices: delicatessen (that meant kosher), appetizing, and a word that stood for Chinese food which I am loathe to repeat.

Edited April 8, 2003 by stefanyb (log)