Chinatown Fish

[EJRothman]

Hello All,

For about the past year I have been buying all my fish in Chinatown. The prices can't be beat and the quality and turnover is very good. (I was also told that they get their shipments in on Sunday so that's the best day to go).

More specifically I like the Place on the Corner of Grand St. and Chrystie St. across from the subway entrance.

I'd like to hear other people's opinion's about Chinatown fishmarkets. So lemme know,

-Eric

[Fat Guy]

No matter where you buy fish -- whether it's Chinatown or the fanciest place on the Upper East Side -- it's a buyer-beware process. There's always going to be a hierarchy of quality within any given store, and the stuff at the bottom of the hierarchy is almost always going to be quite poor (the only exceptions I can think of are some of the boutique places, like Katagiri on 59th Street). My general observation about the hierarchy of quality at Chinatown fish markets is that shellfish sit at the top of the pyramid: shrimp, lobsters, crabs, and various mollusks are all often quite good, fresh, high-turnover, and amazingly cheap by Western-store standards.

[vengroff]

The good thing about fish is that it's pretty easy for experienced consumers to judge quality at the time of purchase, wherever they happen to shop. Some things to remember:

1. Buy whole fish whenever possible. They are easier to examine at the time of purchase, and presentation of the final product is great.

2. There should be no "fishy" smell in the shop or on the fish. Obviously there should also be no smell of ammonia, chlorine, or other chemicals that may have been used to clean and cover the smell in the shop.

3. Check the eyes. They should be clear.

4. Check the gills. They should be red and vibrant.

Follow these steps, and you'll end up with good fish on your table.

[anil]

No matter where you buy fish -- whether it's Chinatown or the fanciest place on the Upper East Side -- it's a buyer-beware process. There's always going to be a hierarchy of quality within any given store, and the stuff at the bottom of the hierarchy is almost always going to be quite poor ......

I agree with you. However in medium size fish places in Chinatown the turnover is so high that it is unlikely that you will get something bad. As usual stick fish that you know and understand. When in doubt bring your cantonese-friend-who-loves-to-cook-fish along

Having said all that, East Broadway is where you can get good value.

Edited February 26, 2003 by anil (log)

[eatingwitheddie]

I like the Place on the Corner of Grand St. and Chrystie St. across from the subway entrance.

I'd like to hear other people's opinion's about Chinatown fishmarkets. 

-Eric

I shop in Chinatown 3-4 times weekly and frequently buy my fish at the same corner you singled out. There are two fish markets there, one on the NW corner of Grand and Chrystie, and a second just off the SW corner on Grand. I typically prefer the store on the south side of the street, but in fact one has to shop at both and see what's fresh.

Mott between Grand and Hester is another block to check out, and in my opinion has the best shopping in the hood. There is an excellent fish market mid block, a little closer to Grand actually, on the east side of the street. They tend to carry a better grade product, larger sea bass and grey sole for example. Walk south from there and you'll run into a pair of narrow and particularly well priced mongers, very active stores. Further south on the block, just a few doors north of Hester, is the relatively new large modern market that stretches through the entire block to Elizabeth Street. Don't know the name but you can recognize it by its string of colored light fixtures. They sell big thick center cuts of beautifully fat salmon among many other items: reliably very good guality, a little bit more expensive, but still a bargain and worth it. More importantly when you reach this end of the block this enables you to reward yourself by crossing Hester and ducking into New Chiao Chow on Mott St to score a bowl of their cheap and terrific bone-warming wonton soup. You pay for the soup with the three bucks you just saved on the fish!

Catherine St.(north side) just east of Chatham Sq. has a small mid-block high-turnover fish market that I've been patronizing and found reliable for many years. Again there is no substitute for being selective.

Finally, on the east side of of Center St about 1 1/2 blocks north of Canal is a great store specializing in live fish and lobsters, as well as dungeness crabs and geoduck clams, which they receive directly from the west coast. Good place to buy live stripers, cod, tilapia and shrimp etc. The name has changed numerous times, don't know what it is these days.

As far as fresh fish primarily on Sundays -- I don't believe it for a second. The wholesale market is closed Sundays, and direct receivers can get a shipment anytime. Retailers make sure to be well stocked on Sundays because it is the busiest day. Just isn't that simple. Shop carefully, that's the answer.

By the way the shopping scene in Bklyn's 8th Ave. Chinatown has gotten extremely active and is priced even below Manhattan's. I find myself shopping there with increasing frequency.

Edited February 26, 2003 by eatingwitheddie (log)

[Bux]

EJRothman, are you talking about the guy right on the northwest corner of Grand and Chrystie? That's one of two places we use regularly. The other one is the guy just across Grand Street, one shop west of Chrystie. At one time based on small samplings I'd say Chinatown was not only a better value, but offered better fish. Frequent purchese over a long period of time makes me want to agree with Fat Guy. Caveat emptor wherever you buy fish and I've had problems with supposedly reputable shops unloading questionable stock. Whole fish is always easier to judge than filets or steaks, but I've come to the point where we buy the latter as well. I've bought salmon at Citarella one day and on Grand Street the next day at a third the price and thought the downtown salmon was tastier, but I've also bought salmon that had a tinge of fishy smell when I got it home at another time. A questionable purchase every four or five years is not going to lead me to abandon Chinatown as a source, but I visually examine the whole fish and pick up the salmon and smell it if in doubt. As far as shell fish go, most of the mussels are tagged these days and you can examine the labels for dates, most shrimp have been frozen but sometimes you can find those wriggly guys sold live at premium price.

I will however, pay the premium at the Greenmarket for what they offer.

[EJRothman]

EJRothman, are you talking about the guy right on the northwest corner of Grand and Chrystie? That's one of two places we use regularly. The other one is the guy just across Grand Street, one shop west of Chrystie... most shrimp have been frozen but sometimes you can find those wriggly guys sold live at premium price.

The shop that I use is the one across Grand Street, one shop West. (I would have been more explicit in my original post except that my sense of direction is terrible and I'm not good at figuring out which corner is which...the shop I like is at the SW corner, 1 shop in).

With regard to shrimp, whenever I buy shrimp I make sure to buy a whole box, still frozen. That way I can keep it onhand and use it as I need and I don't have to worry about it being frozen more than once. It's true you can find the live ones, but they generally tend to be much smaller.

Also, thank you to eatingwitheddie for a very complete list of good chinatown markets. I'm also curious to try the 8th Ave, Bklyn scene, especially since I live in Bklyn. One question though, where in particular (which cross streets) on 8th Avenue offer the best options?

Thanks,

Eric

Edited February 26, 2003 by EJRothman (log)

[Suzanne F]

Any thoughts on the live fish one sees swimming around in tanks in some of the supermarkets?

[Bux]

the shop I like is at the SW corner, 1 shop in

That's probably been our number one place in Chinatown for more than a few years. I forgot about the new shop Eddie mentioned that runs through the block between Mott and Elizabeth. It is a little bit more expensive, but everything looks good there and although I haven't adopted it as a regular place, I've been happy with the little I've bought. Overall it's a market worth looking at. The meat looks good too, although Grand Sausage is my first stop for pork in Chinatown. Chinatown? Geez, it's across the street from Ferrara's and between DiPalo's and Piemonte Ravioli in the heart of Little Italy or what used to be Little Italy. NYC keeps on changing.

[tautog]

Please refrain from purchasing live blackfish. Poaching supplies shops and average fisherman are being given less chance 2 bring few fish home. Blackfish under 14" are illegal and common in live fish shops. Black sea bass are legal, good and are ok if over 12." Cod are legal also, however quick 2 lose freshness.

[Stone]

2. There should be no "fishy" smell in the shop or on the fish.

I haven't been in Chinatown for a while, but is there any store without a horrible fishy smell? Or fish swimming upside down, gasping for oxygen, with fungus, scales and God knows what else hanging off?

Edited February 27, 2003 by Stone (log)

[tommy]

I haven't been in Chinatown for a while, but is there any store without a horrible fishy smell?  Or fish  swimming upside down, gasping for oxygen, with fungus, scales and God knows what else hanging off? 

that was my initial thought. i suppose there are a few gems, but for the most part, those places look disgusting. flies. odor. the whole thing.

Edited February 27, 2003 by tommy (log)

[DavidJS]

Can anyone recommend which fishmarket in C-town carries Wild Alaskan salmon and not farmed. Usually, I get my wild salmon at Agata & Valentina. They carry a good selection of fish but with a price.

[vengroff]

I haven't been in Chinatown for a while, but is there any store without a horrible fishy smell?  Or fish  swimming upside down, gasping for oxygen, with fungus, scales and God knows what else hanging off? 

that was my initial thought. i suppose there are a few gems, but for the most part, those places look disgusting. flies. odor. the whole thing.

I don't know. I always went uptown to wild edibles. Expensive, but excellent quality.

[Bux]

My guess is that you're not likely to get wild Alaska salmon in Chinatown. There are some quality items that can be found in Chinatown, but when it comes to salmon the competition seems mostly on price.

[La Niña]

On Friday, Toby and I stumbled onto a fish store on Mulberry, north of Canal. Definitely a cut above. English-speaking guy, somebody obviously cares about what they're doing, fresh stuff, better and more interesting selection...it's on the west side of the street, it the middle of the block. Not a tiny place, not too big either. I bought some shrimp which were terrific, and Toby bought some roe...

[DavidJS]

I'm kinda wary when it comes to most Ctown fishery market. But the one La Nina mentioned is where I get my shrimps too and the occasional mussels/ scallops (to make paella of course). Especially with the shrimp head on since it retains more freshness. But I did get really sick from their lobster one night. Maybe I got a bad batch.

Edited February 27, 2003 by DavidJS (log)

[Fat Guy]

Any thoughts on the live fish one sees swimming around in tanks in some of the supermarkets?

We've had a few discussions of live fish versus dead fish. My opinion is that live fish are overrated.

With shellfish, of course, the bacteria in the carcass are going to cause rapid decomposition after death. So lobsters should be alive, as should crabs, clams, oysters, mussels, etc. Anything that's not alive -- like shrimp -- should be frozen, or processed (head removed, deveined) and moved quickly to market.

But with other fish, I'm in favor of killing it on the boat, icing it down to preserve its integrity, and delivering it to market as soon as possible. Most of the best fish I've ever had in my life have come via this tried-and-true system. You will find zero live fish (other than shellfish) at a restaurant like Le Bernardin, and virtually none at the best Japanese restaurants like Sushi Yasuda (maybe the occasional live fluke, but not much else).

Tanks are a good option if they are utilized judiciously -- as very temporary holding areas. But if fish are transported and kept in tanks for a long time, they are going to be consuming their own flesh for energy and otherwise decomposing while still alive. Moreover, most tank fish are farmed, and while I favor aquaculture in some circumstances the majority of farmed fish have very little flavor.

As a cultural matter, I've found that Asian-taught cooks have a strong bias in favor of live and against dead fish. I can certainly see the intuitive appeal of that position. But I think sometimes it actually operates, counterintuitively, to the detriment of flavor and real freshness.

[Fat Guy]

I haven't been in Chinatown for a while, but is there any store without a horrible fishy smell?  Or fish  swimming upside down, gasping for oxygen, with fungus, scales and God knows what else hanging off? 

that was my initial thought. i suppose there are a few gems, but for the most part, those places look disgusting. flies. odor. the whole thing.

I think the uptown, Western stores are better at presenting themselves to a finicky audience. I'm not necessarily convinced their product is actually more hygienic. Also, all the New York Chinatowns have been undergoing a lot of modernization. The newer places are quite sterile in appearance, reminiscent of what you'd find in Vancouver, Singapore, etc.

[LESider]

I haven't been in Chinatown for a while, but is there any store without a horrible fishy smell?  Or fish  swimming upside down, gasping for oxygen, with fungus, scales and God knows what else hanging off? 

that was my initial thought. i suppose there are a few gems, but for the most part, those places look disgusting. flies. odor. the whole thing.

I think the uptown, Western stores are better at presenting themselves to a finicky audience. I'm not necessarily convinced their product is actually more hygienic. Also, all the New York Chinatowns have been undergoing a lot of modernization. The newer places are quite sterile in appearance, reminiscent of what you'd find in Vancouver, Singapore, etc.

I'm with you on this. I go to the markets on Grand and Chrystie often. The place isn't Citarella, but they put emphasis on what's the most important thing: the product. I don't have to eat it there. in and out, with a couple of extra bucks in my pocket.

[EJRothman]

I cringed this morning when I opened the New York Times Magazine (Sunday, March 10th edition) and discovered that Jason Epstein used his entire two page spread to glorify the high quality and low prices of the Chinatown fish/meat/produce trade.

Visions of disoriented and misguided Upper East/West Side residents abandoning Fairway, Zabar's and Citarella to flock to the "New York Times approved" Chinatown haunts flashed before my eyes.

I can only hope that this does not spell the end to the low prices and relative obscurity of some of my favorite Chinatown places. (One only need to try to find a Wusthof 'Gourmet' 7" Off-set serrated knife to see the effect a NYTimes plug has on the market value and availability of a given commodity)

-Eric

[Suzanne F]

Oh, I don't know. The article made it sound kind of scary, too. Even more than dealing with the little old ladies who ram you with their carts at Fairway. It's difficult to get to C-town by bus or subway from the UWS; very easy by bus from the UES, but do those folks ride the bus with us commoners? And carrying loaded shopping bags, no less?

Anyway, I prefer Forschner for serrated edges.

[leviathan]

With shellfish, of course, the bacteria in the carcass are going to cause rapid decomposition after death. So lobsters should be alive, as should crabs, clams, oysters, mussels, etc. Anything that's not alive -- like shrimp -- should be frozen, or processed (head removed, deveined) and moved quickly to market.

I don't understand why you'd need to remove the head from the shrimp.

I've always believed that the shell gave it more flavor, and you can eat the stuff inside the shell too. Mmmm....

If the problem is that the head will carry bacteria that will cause decomposition, then shouldn't freezing it prevent that? And, if that's still a problem, wouldn't the rest of the shell of the shrimp pose the same problem so that you'd need to basically freeze shrimps where there's no shells or heads.

[raji]

When Bourdain referred to the Korean and Chinese fishbuyers swooping in at the close of business at Fulton, was he referring to the restauranteurs or fishmongers too?

I have a geographicial bias towards Central (and Sea Breeze if necc) on 9th avenue in hell's kitchen - both places are retail frontends to their larger wholesale operations... which do you guys think is better, there or C-town?