London: The belly of the beast

[Jon Tseng]

The other day a taxi driver told me about a great pie and mash place in Exmouth Market. I was a bit surprised when he didn't go on to charge me thruppence ha'penny and turn into a pumpkin on the stroke of midnight.

Pie & Mash place middling - remember camping out there a couple of years back while revising for some exams

pie so so; gravy watery. i got the impression that, like fish and chips, its a meal more pleasurable in the anticipation than the consumption

Anyone tried S&M cafe yet?

J

[Gavin Jones]

Wilfrid, thankyou. I knew I could rely on you for some helpful clarity in thinking. I will be a quantum gastrophysicist, collapsing history's multiply liminal states to the single bite of a dead cat kebab.

Martin: (feels strange not referrign to you as Macrosan).

Kettner's is still around, now owned by Pizza Express.

Gay Hussar & Langan's - would be excellent locations to try and eat the ambience of 70's London. Though without Tom Driberg in the one - and I have been honing my Peter Langan impersonation at eGullet meals (Excellent biog of Langan by Brian Sewell).

"The George" is indeed in Southwark.

Pubs are going to be very difficult - so many aspects to explore.

Periodisation may be the way:

e.g. The Crimean war and the late 19th C building boom - an excuse to drink in anything called teh Lord CLyde or the Alma.

Edit: Kikujiro: Right you are on Alistair Little.

Food Manufacturing is interesting - M&S prepared food a must. I am slightly nervous at the prospect of prawn cocktail sandwiches followed by chicken kiev.

Pie & Mash definites - It'll be Manze's on Deptford High Street for me.

Gastropub: Definite.

Green Huts still exist (e.g. by Warwick Avenue).

Edited February 25, 2003 by Gavin Jones (log)

[Wilfrid]

Kettner's is still around, now owned by Pizza Express.

No 't'ain't. See my post above.

[Vanessa]

Shellfish stalls. Eels - both jellied and with mash.

v

[macrosan]

Tubby Isaacs ? He must be about 130 years old by now

And who remembers Isow's ?

Edited February 25, 2003 by Martin Rosen (log)

[peterpumkino]

Was it that they were Swiss Italian immigrants? Or Swiss German?  There was definitely a story there.  Did they all come over at a specific time early in the 20th century?

Great questions Vanessa. BTW did you know that most of the good sandwich in Central London bars are run by Italians from the Bologna area!

Edited February 25, 2003 by peterpumkino (log)

[Gavin Jones]

Fitzrovia could stand some further exploration

The Julian Maclaren-Ross themed afternoon beckons.

And my first foray to an Angus Steak House - I believe William Burroughs ate daily at the one in Charing Cross road when in London.

Bloody Hell I'm going to have a lot of reading.

Edited February 25, 2003 by Gavin Jones (log)

[peterpumkino]

And who remembers Isow's ?

When I was 16 years old I was a 'runner' for Hammer Films in Wardour Street and I used to go to Isow's to get smoked salmon sandwiches for the directors of Hammer. Ah, memories. Mind you I went a couple of times to the Bortsh 'n' Tears in Beauchamp Place when I was seventeen and it's still there!

Anybody remember Inigo Jones in the Covent Garden area (when it really was a market!).

[Charlene Leonard]

Kettner's is still around, now owned by Pizza Express.

No 't'ain't. See my post above.

Boizot sold it back to Pizza Express last year

[Wilfrid]

My apologies. I'm behind the ball.

Sadly, McClaren-Ross's nightly supper choice, the Steak An', is long since vanished. Nonetheless, one could stand at the bar of the Wheatsheaf from five to ten thirty, then dart madly across Oxford Street for last orders at the Nellie Dean (eek, I have a feeling that name has changed recently), and retire to someone's bedsit with a jug of pale ale and some bread and salami to discuss gangster movies until dawn.

I'm sure there's someone who could stand in for Tambimuttu. Ah, but who...?

Edited February 25, 2003 by Wilfrid (log)

[circeplum]

gavin -

the river cafe? that spawned the oliver one, and was the first 'modern italian', i think.

m

(love the idea)

[Miss J]

Of course, you'll have to go to E Pellicci on Bethnal Green Road. Not only is it a fine example of the Italian-run East End cafe, (Mama in the kitchen, lasagne & chips on the menu) but it's been there for 100 years and is still run by the same family. And the interior's gorgeous, too.

Besides, the Krays loved it.

[Simon Majumdar]

Besides, the Krays loved it. 

They loved stabbing people through the eye with screwdrivers too, but I wouldn't want to try that

What was the first Chinese restaurant? In the modern sense ( as V's would be to Indian restaurants ) I am assuming that it was one of the places in Limehouse

S

[Kikujiro]

Terroni, round the corner from me, is the oldest Italian deli.

Fortnums? I went there yesterday for the first time in years in search of Fuchsia Dunlop-approved sichuan pepper from the Cool Chile Co (they list F&M as a stockist but not a single CCC item on the shelves). Loadsa jam though.

[macrosan]

Mind you I went a couple of times to the Bortsh 'n' Tears in Beauchamp Place when I was seventeen and it's still there!

Borscht 'n' Tears is still there ???? Wow, that used to be my "fancy bird" place, where I used to take young ladies with whom I thought I stood a chance. So that would mean I went twice It looked and sounded very romantic, with those rcessed booths under vaulted arches in the cellar. In fact, it was pretty dank and smelly, but with a fancy bird who cared

Peter, when you were running for Hammer, was that because someone was chasing you ? And of so, why ?

[Simon Majumdar]

Jimmy's in SOHO must be worth a visit.

It must be the home of the rudest waiters in London and I am sure everybody has been there at least once

The food was grim greek stodge, the house wine was poured into bottles from a metal can AT THE TABLE and the bill came to about £3 a pop in 1983 ( the last time I went )

But, it is still there and still going strong

S

[Wilfrid]

I think I commented not long ago about the outrageous leap in prices at Jimmy's. I think it's around 7.50 for an entree these days. So many places aren't what they were: Lee Ho Fook must be one of the oldest restaurants in Chinatown, but it's been refurbished so many times that you'd never know. I wonder if Quo Vadis will still let you upstairs to look at Karl Marx's old bedsit, now that it's no longer Leoni's. That was one of the first grand Italian restaurants in SoHo.

As for Italian caffs, what's the name of the one in Spitalfields where Gilbert and George eat? I believe that's a genuine oldie. (Photo Op: Gilbert and George and Gavin ).

[macrosan]

Jimmy's in SOHO must be worth a visit.

It must be the home of the rudest waiters in London

You call them rude ? 'Appen tha neer took thasen to Bloom's in Whitechapel ....

[Simon Majumdar]

As for Italian caffs, what's the name of the one in Spitalfields where Gilbert and George eat?  I believe that's a genuine oldie.  (Photo Op:  Gilbert and George and Gavin  ).

Closed last year, I believe

S

[Charlene Leonard]

(Photo Op:  Gilbert and George and Gavin  ).

oh my god you are so right!

strangely appropriate...Gilbert and George's 'Hunger'

[Wilfrid]

Good lord. What on earth to G&G do for lunch now?

[Simon Majumdar]

Good lord.  What on earth to G&G do for lunch now?

Perhaps they might take the time to develop some artistic talent or more likely install a kitchen

S

[Tonyfinch]

For Indian it could be Agra in Whitfield St. Nondescript curry house now but the first restaurant (apparently) to serve Tandoori Chicken in London- now THAT started a culinary revolution.

For Chinese it must be Limehouse, as Simon said. The one in Salmon Lane-Good Friends? Anyway, something friends-is said to be the original and best.

Unfortunately Blooms in Whitechapel is now a Burger King, but there's a long standing branch in Golders Green Rd where you must try Stuffed Neck and Tzimmes.

[macrosan]

For  Indian it could be Agra in Whitfield St. Nondescript curry house now but the first restaurant (apparently) to serve Tandoori Chicken in London- now THAT started a culinary revolution.

Oh good grief. I'm pretty sure that was the restaurant opened by my college friend Billy Nawathe If so, that was the first place I ever ate tandoori chicken.

Yeah, Tony, Bloom's in GG is all that is left, but the waiters there just don't have the style, do they ? The best part of Bloom's Whitechapel was when the waiter schlepped you over to his table (their sole source of income was commission and tips) and just as you started to sit down he'd say "So what do you want?". Classy

[mogsob]

Gavin, a great idea and a truly worthy pursuit.

A gobal suggestion -- you should distinguish between restaurants that are historically important for (1) themselves (i.e., the first French/Chinese/Indian/Italian restaurants), (2) the type of food they serve, but not necessarily for themselves (e.g., an eel, mash and pie house), and (3) the people who ate there. Covering all three categories may be difficult to achieve.

A couple of specific suggestions. What about the English restaurant? Rules, Wheeler's, Green's, Wilton's, Bentley's, Sweetings, George & Vulture, Simpson's Tavern, Simpsons in the Strand etc. Also, the great historic hotel restaurants, like the Dorechester Grill Room, Savoy Grill Room etc. I would also recommend Monkey's in Chelsea for traditional English game, like roast mallard with bread sauce.

As for pubs, breakfast at the Fox and Anchor, lunch at Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese, dinner at The Grenadier for historic value.

Happy Eating!