Fish etc in China

[Anchobrie]

On 3/27/2025 at 11:14 PM, liuzhou said:

 

I’m poised to enter the deep and treacherous waters of nomenclature. This time not only in the Chinese but also the English.

 

I’m looking at the Testudines order of reptiles. These include what I will refer to as turtles, tortoises and terrapins, although not everyone may agree. This is the preferred British nomenclature and that’s what I’m most used to. In the Chinese mind and the minds of many other cultures, they’re all the same thing. In Mandarin, 龟 (guī) is used for all three, although 海龟 (hǎi guī) can be used to specify the marine variety as can 鼋 (yuán). 甲鱼 (jiǎ yú) is used for both sea turtles and freshwater terrapins; rarely for tortoises.

 

甲鱼 (jiǎ yú) is perhaps odd as individually the characters mean ‘shell fish’. The shell part is easy to understand, but fish? Clearly not. However, 鱼 is often used in the names of aquatic animals other than fish. There are a few other names used in the names of specific types of whatever you call them, but they are not relevant here.

 

 

In common British usage turtles are marine whereas tortoises are land based. Terrapins are tiny freshwater turtles. These distinctions are not always observed in other English speaking countries.

 

But it’s as food we are thinking here. Both turtles and tortoises are eaten, rarely terrapins which tend instead to be sold as pets for children. They are also often served at wedding banquets,. When I lived in Hunan, there was a whole street of turtle restaurants. I’ve never really seen the point. They aren’t, in my opinion, good eating. Tough and bland. I suspect they are popular for a misplaced belief that they have aphrodisiac properties and an absurd belief that, because they can live long lives, eating turtles will do the same for you. They do live a long time. A tortoise  collected by Charles Darwin in the Galápagos in 1835 lived until 2006; a lot longer than Darwin did.

 

Braised Turtle

 

Turtles, particularly their shells are used in TCM for all the usual nonsense.

 

Guilinggao (龟苓膏 guī líng gāo), a herbal medicine / dessert was traditionally used making a specific type of turtle shell, but today rarely contains any at all. The link gives more information on that.

 

A 2 kg turtle costs around ¥100 / $14 USD. A pet terrapin costs ¥5 // 70 cents.

 

Pet Terrapins

 

 

Very nice stuff, People does not talk much about eating turtles/tortoises/terrapins, but here in the shores of the "newly" named "gulf of America" you can sometimes find snapping turtles dishes. Not as great thing...

 

BTW, your braised turtle image actually shows  a terrapin.

 

[liuzhou]

12 minutes ago, Anchobrie said:

BTW, your braised turtle image actually shows  a terrapin.

 

As I pointed out in my post, tortoises, terrapins and sea turtles are ALL turtles in most of the world's terminology, especially among zoologists.

[Anchobrie]

Just now, liuzhou said:

 

As I pointed out in my post, tortoises, terrapins and sea turtles are ALL turtles in most of the world's terminology, especially among zoologists.

I know, I was just answering based on your own suggestions about what to call what. I happen to go from time to time with some zoologists to trap turtles (and other living critters). In fact, I'll be "turtle" trapping next week around Alabama's coast 

[liuzhou]

This is the sort of nonsense I'm up against.

 

 

These were being sold as 剑鱼 (jiàn yú) which translates as 'swordfish, which they clearly aren't.

 

They're plain old catfish! Specifically channel catfish, Ictalurus punctatus, America's most fished species. They have been introduced around the world, including to China. However, in many countries, they are classified as an unwelcome invasive species.

$3 USD / 500g.

 

We do get real swordfish to which I will return.

 

 

Edited April 4 by liuzhou (log)

[liuzhou]

Swordfish which aren’t catfish are 剑鱼 (jiàn yú) in Chinese. Xiphias gladius in scientific terms. It is no surprise that we get them here; they are one of the most widespread sea fish being found in all oceans, except in the Arctic and Antarctic regions.

 

Swordfish distribution (blue)

 

The pink fleshed variety available in some places is a result of those fish’s diet, but are unavailable here.

 

Image: cshdsj.com.cn.jpg

 

They normally grow to around 3 metres / 10 ft in length unless caught first. Those I see here are much shorter. Despite being found in local waters, it is not a particularly popular fish here. When available, these oily fish are usually sold as steaks which are fried or occasionally grilled. I have once or twice however seen what I take to be babies sold whole in some supermarkets.

 

There are concerns regarding the conservation status.

 

Swordfish sells at around $2.30 / 500g.

 

The USFDA recommends that young children, pregnant women, and women planning to become pregnant not eat swordfish as they can contain high levels of methylmercury,

 

 

 

[liuzhou]

Hainan is a group of tropical islands and China’s southernmost province. The largest island by far is the eponymous Hainan Island. It is a favourite tourist resort, especially the city of Sanya on its southern tip with its white beaches. Seafood is a speciality here, but not its only one: much of the fruit we get here is from the island.

 

Hainan's location in China.

 

The Singaporean / Malaysian favourite, Hainan chicken rice (HCR) isn’t generally found in Hainan. The dish was invented in Singapore by a Hainanese immigrant but using local ingredients. Wenchang chicken from Hainan on the other hand is a much prized breed and may have been used in HCR, but rarely is now.

 

Yesterday, this caught my attention on my delivery app.

 

 

Most people will know red snapper, but it doesn’t end there. Snappers are members of 笛鲷属 (dí diāo shǔ), Lutjanus, a genus in the Lutjanidae family. There are 73 known species within the Lutjanus genus and innumerable colours. Some are striped; others are spotted. They like to live in mangroves and both tropical and subtropical coral reefs, which Hainan has aplenty.

 

What was being sold to me was a mixed selection from 19 types they list. I don’t get to choose – they do, supposedly at random. However the minimum I can order is 3kg. If I want the larger samples, I have to buy 10kg. Pass. I’m just lil’ ole’ me; not a restaurant.

 

Precise species are not usually identified. In the image they describe two only by colour: ‘white’ (left) and ‘green’ (centre). The red one the right is the only one of the 19 I have managed to track down. It is Lutjanus sanguineus, humphead snapper or scarlet snapper.

 

Prices range wildly, but none are cheap.

 

 

Edited April 6 by liuzhou (log)

[Smithy]

That's a striking color contrast! I'd only heard before of red snapper. Thank you.

[liuzhou]

This grabbed my attention a couple of days ago, as I was idly flicking through my local delivery app.

 

 

It wasn’t the 王螃蟹 (wáng páng xiè) king crab that surprised me – I’ve long known they are available in China. It was the price listed. ¥9,999! I know king crabs don'’t come cheap but the most expensive I’ve previously seen were around ¥2,000 / $275 USD. ¥9,999 is $1,372.86. Then it twigged and I read the description. Nothing to do with king crabs, at all.

The delivery app insists on the listings only containing items for sale (a no spam policy) but occasionally some companies get round that by advertising something they don’t stock at a ludicrous price to stop any idiot actually ordering it while getting their real point across in the description.

 

The “description” in this case consists of information on the Chinese weighing conventions, which I think everyone knows anyway. We sensibly use metric, but mixed in with some old Chinese names. So, for example 500 grams can be described as such or as a 斤 (jīn). This used to be a variable weight depending on location but has now been standardised at 500 g throughout Mainland China. 1 kg is a 公斤 (gōng jīn), which confusingly literally means ‘common jin’ which it isn’t; jīn without its gong is the one I see most often!

 

Anyway, back to king crab of whatever weight. These creatures, which aren’t true crabs*, like to hang out in very cold waters. Those in America tend, I’m lead to believe, to be caught mostly in Alaskan waters but some from Argentina. (?) Those here are always from Russian waters except for once when I saw one from Chile. It was the most expensive I've seen. I suppose because of distance.

 

Although I can’t buy them whole locally, I can for delivery from further afield in northern China, suitably nearer to Russia! Those are usually around the $80 - $140 mark, depending on size, However, frozen king crab legs are available in supermarkets. These come from Russia, too. A 500g box can be between $30 and $50, again depending on size.

 

* The only thing carcinologists agree on is that they aren’t true crabs (the Brachyura family). Some believe they are related to hermit crabs; others determinedly disagree. I don’t care.

 

 

Edited April 7 by liuzhou (log)

[Tropicalsenior]

I haven't had king crab in years but I know my daughter buys it over the internet. She said that she pays $80 a pound. And that is in the shell. It looks like the package that you have there is shelled which would be a good deal.

[liuzhou]

15 minutes ago, Tropicalsenior said:

I haven't had king crab in years but I know my daughter buys it over the internet. She said that she pays $80 a pound. And that is in the shell. It looks like the package that you have there is shelled which would be a good deal.

 

The legs are shelled, yes.

[liuzhou]

Talking of crabs reminds me of this. 蟹黄 (xiè huáng), literally ‘crab yellow’ is that yellow stuff you find in crabs that most people clean away. It is edible and even prized here. It is the roe, ovary, oviducts and digestive glands of Mrs. Crab. Similar to lobster tomalley in nature.

 

It is relatively rich in nutrients such as nutrients and phospholids.

 

Probably, the best known use of ‘crab yellow’ is in Shanghai’s famous 蟹黄汤包 (xiè huáng tāng bāo), ‘crab yellow’ soup dumplings. It also appears in a number of Cantonese dim sum dishes. I’ve seen crab yellow congee as well as ‘crab yellow’ fried rice or fried noodles. I’ve eaten ‘crab yellow’ baozi buns, where it is mixed with minced pork in the filling.

 

🍜

 

It is sold in jars of varying sizes as well as in larger cans for the restaurant trade. Once opened, it needs refrigeration for storage so I buy it in these small 100g jars which cost me around $1.50 USD. The type of crab is unspecified.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 8 by liuzhou (log)

[liuzhou]

Another ludicrous mislabelling. This was identified as wahoo, which it clearly isn’t. Instead it is 竹荚鱼 (zhú jiá yú), horse mackerel, specifically Japanese horse mackerel, Trachurus japonicus. Also known in English as Japanese jack mackerel or Japanese scad. Despite the mackerel name and its similarity to mackerel it is a different, only distantly unrelated species.

 

Also despite the Japanese epithet, they aren’t exclusive to Japan but are found in both the East China Sea and Sea of Japan and so are also landed in China and Korea. In Japanese they are マアジ (māji) and in Korean 전갱이 (jeon gaen gi).

They’re nearly all wild caught, with a diminishing small number raised by aquaculture. Their resemblance to true mackerel is not only visual but extends to their flavour. Most are canned for export but are widely available in the three countries mentioned. 

 

This is one I’m rather partial to. Around $3.75 / 500g

 

 

Edited April 9 by liuzhou (log)

[liuzhou]

A Sad tale

 

Being of the Scottish persuasion by birth and upbringing, I am extremely partial to smoked fish. Kippers, Finnan Haddie, Arbroath Smokies, Smoked Mackerel and, of course, Smoked Salmon etc.

 

Here in China, I have a problem. A lot of “smoked” fish has never been near smoke other than perhaps the vendor’s cigarette in its life! Probably the most famous dish is what is usually described as Shanghai Smoked Fish, 上海熏鱼 (shàng hǎi xūn yú). I enjoy this but smoked it ain’t.

 

Shanghai Not Smoked Fish - Image Mietuan Online Shopping App

 

This misnaming isn’t dishonesty or deliberate fraud but a linguistic / translation problem. 熏 (xūn) can mean ‘smoked’ but has other meanings such as to fumigate, to assail the nostrils, to perfume. I suggest the nostril assault meaning is the correct one for the fish, which is usually carp.

 

This Mala Market piece goes into detail as to how it’s actually made, although it doesn’t mention the linguistic confusion.

 

Another word for ‘smoke’ is 烟 (yān), which also mend cigarette or tobacco. This is slightly more reliable but still no guarantees. It is often combined with 熏 (xūn) to give 烟熏 (yān xūn). Which still tells you not very much. More reliable but far from infallible is 熏烤 (xūn kǎo) which means ‘to smoke or cure over a wood fire’.

 

The only decent, actually smoked fish I’ve found here was rather expensive smoked sturgeon from the world’s largest caviar supplier.

 

Smoked Sturgeon

 

Recently, I recently found some smoked herring, made in China, but described as Russian style. I tried to have it delivered from Heilongjiang Province, China’s most northern bordering Siberia. As soon as I placed the order they announced it had been withdrawn from sale.

 

😭😭😭

 

 

Edited April 13 by liuzhou (log)

[liuzhou]

Good news. Late last night, I managed to track down an alternative supplier of the smoked herring in the same city as that mentioned in the previous post and ordered one to sample. 

 

They just informed me my parcel has been shipped. It is a long way though, so it'll take two or three days to get here.

 

 

Edited April 14 by liuzhou (log)

[liuzhou]

My smoked herring has arrived. All the way from Heilongjiang in the frozen north, next to Russian Siberia. There are a lot of Russian ethnic Chinese nationals there and trade ties are close.

 

Known here as 鲱鱼 (fēi yú), it is Clupea pallasii, Herring but this is labelled as 冷熏 鲱鱼 (lěng xūn fēi yú), cold smoked herring. So far; so good.

 

It is, as you can see in the photograph in the above post, labelled in Chinese and Russian. Cельдь (seld) is the correct translation for herring reassuring me somewhat. But that photo is from the seller’s listing. What actually arrived is only described in Chinese but it seems they supply both markets so hopefully it will be the same.

 

 

What will I do with it? Not sure yet. There are options. Kedgeree or simply grilled / broiled with butter the way it is served in Scotland I’ll let you know. It’s in the freezer as recommended.

 

I ordered the smallest size available as a tester. If it's up to par, I'll go larger next time.

 

 

Edited April 17 by liuzhou
typo (log)

[liuzhou]

Thinking about herring recently reminded me of something called Chinese or White Herring, which is available here, but isn’t a true herring at all, although vaguely related. 鰳鱼 (lè yú), Ilisha elongata is also called the slender shad, but isn’t a shad, either! It’s what is known as a longfin herring. 

 

 

It is found in the coastal waters around SE Asia, China, Korea and Japan and extensively caught.

 

AquaMaps (2019, October). Computer generated distribution maps for Ilisha elongata (Elongate ilisha), with modelled year 2050 native range map based on IPCC RCP8.5 emissions scenario. Retrieved from https://www.aquamaps.org.

 

I often see it on fish counters but never buy it. Although the taste is fine I’m very bone tolerant, this species takes boniness to an extreme, as I discovered the first and only time I did buy it. There are better species to eat.

 

 

[Smithy]

On 4/17/2025 at 11:57 PM, liuzhou said:

this species takes boniness to an extreme, as I discovered the first and only time I did buy it.

 

Thanks for this warning. I think I'm unlikely to run across this particular fish, but if I do I'll know to leave it alone. I'm not bone tolerant in fish. Spoils the fun for me!

[liuzhou]

9 hours ago, Smithy said:

 

Thanks for this warning. I think I'm unlikely to run across this particular fish, but if I do I'll know to leave it alone. I'm not bone tolerant in fish. Spoils the fun for me!

 

Unlikely, yes. But if you do find yourself deported to China for any reason, I suggest you avoid fish totally. Most fish is served gutted but otherwise whole and on the bone. There are exceptions but no menu ever tells you which is which, even if you can read it.

 

🐟🐡

 

 

 

[liuzhou]

I finally got round to defrosting my 'Russian style'  smoked herring. To my delight it was full of roe.

 

I added butter and broiled 🇺🇸 / grilled 🇬🇧 it for a few minutes.

Delicious. The finished dish is on the breakfast topic. It was a bit bony but not excessively so and the bones were mostly soft and edible. Good source of calcium, I guess.

 

Next time, I'll get a larger one.

 

 

Roe

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 05:54 AM by liuzhou (log)