Michelin '03

[cabrales]

Tony -- Restaurant reviewers generally do not have to explicitly state their preferences. Even reviewers that conduct a large number of assessments do not have to document explicitly what they like or not. Every reader of a review/assessment should know to be careful in using *any* guide, including in determining whether the preferences implicit in the guide's recommendations comport with the reader's own preferences. As we have previously discussed, there is a argument (to which I adhere) that an assessment of a restaurant is inherently subjective.

[Tonyfinch]

Tony -- Restaurant reviewers generally do not have to explicitly state their preferences.

Actually many do. Often you will read a review which starts "I've not been that fond of Lower Uzbekistani cuisine up to now but....."

This includes your good self of course. You are constantly citing your preference for French cuisine over all others to give context to your opinions.

But Michelin is not just a bunch of reviews. The implication in Michelin is that it has visited every worthwhile restaurant in a country and then singled out the "best" ones for various stars and other symbolic awards.

In a country with a restaurant culture as diverse as the UK I think you are doing readers a disservice if you do not explicitly state that you are approaching this task from a culturally biased standpoint. I repeat:why would you NOT?

Unless, of course, you do not comprehend that you are...........

[cabrales]

Tony -- I was trying to articulate that a reviewer *need* not state her preferences, even though she may *choose* to do so. In the case of Michelin, it's a France-based company and has been around for a long time. If a new reader looks at the UK guide and is interested in Chinese food and sees not too many starred facilities offering such food, she would presumably look elsewhere. If she were looking for Chinese food in the first place, she would not be dissuaded from pursuing that food.

I personally don't believe Hakasan deserves a star, although that is also the case for certain other one-starred restaurants. It has good dim sum, based on one visit I made, but it is not the type of one-star that Petrus or Putney Bridge is (and that's not just because the latter two restaurants are French-styled).

[Tonyfinch]

If a new reader looks at the UK guide and is interested in Chinese food and sees not too many starred facilities offering such food, she would presumably look elsewhere.

That's missing the point, Cabrales. If a new reader looks at the UK guide and is interested in THE BEST food she will conclude that (almost) all the "best" restaurants are French and that the Chinese ones, Hakkasan apart are really not up to much. The same applies to other cuisines.

The reader without a cuisine preference will be given a biased steer without that bias being overtly stated. The fact that Michelin is a French company is irrelevant. It does not logically follow that readers will therefore know that the UK guide is biased towards French restaurants.

Edited January 16, 2003 by Tonyfinch (log)

[cabrales]

Tony -- The best restaurants in London are French or French-styled. There's no question in my mind that the two- and three-starred restaurants in London constitute the best restaurants in London, regardless of cuisine. It might be more at the one-starred level (i.e., not the best restaurants in London, but good ones) where there might be an argument for inclusion of more Chinese restaurants, no?

[Tonyfinch]

Cabrales, forget the three and two starred restaurants. I was talking about the restaurants that Michelin cares to include at all. They are overwhelmingly French or French type places.

The fact is the guide cannot cope with the diversity of the British restaurant scene. It doesn't face this problem in France or Spain in Italy. And it hasn't faced it in the UK, preferring to pretend that whole swathes of extremely vibrant and popular cuisines barely exist.

As far as the UK is concerned it should be honest enough to recognize this and admit its partiality. As it is the way it renders cuisines "invisible" smacks of reactionary arrogance at best and downright culinary racism at worst.

[Gary Marshall]

I'd be interested to know what is the split in GFG/AA, for example between oriental/anglo-french cuisine compared to michelin?

I don't particularly use guides to seek out oriental restaurants so i've not been looking for them, but from memory as i've skimmed through various guides most don't seem to be particularly strong on oriental food.

Most guides do seem to have a large degree of commonality, are you being too harsh in singling michelin out?

cheers

Gary

[Andy Lynes]

-- John Burton-Race at the Landmark recently closed.  Any member updates on this development?

All is explained here. Well, not quite all as JBR was interviewed in caterer only a few months ago saying he was handing the reigns on to his trusted sous chef whilst he was away filming and that business was picking up and all would be well. Just goes to show you never can tell, to quote Chuck Berry.

[Tonyfinch]

Gary. Michelin is not just weak on Oriental food. It is weak on British, Italian, Spanish etc. For example, why no recognition of Moro? Or The Real Greek? Or St John? All groundbreaking restaurants and extremely popular and successful.

I don't know the AA Guide but the Good Food Guide shows far more recognition of non French and French type restaurants, at least as far as London is concerned.

More importantly, when you read the GFG you know why a restaurant has been included. Michelin has always preferred to create a mystique around its criteria for inclusion-something I don't feel sits well in the 21st century. Maybe its new inclusion of commentaries is an attempt to redress this.

[Gavin Baxter]

Apparently the guide is published on the 17th of Jan (tomorrow), and each establishment listed now gets a short description.

Just been round to Waterstones and they tell me that the Guide is published on 30 January.

Gavin

[Gary Marshall]

Sorry Tony you're wrong. (and it's not often i can genuinely say that!)

the real greek, st john and moro are all in the michelin guide. (well certainly the web based viamichelin i use)

I promise i've not searched to find a sector that suits my argument but a quick glance at the 'city of london' section of the guide shows 18 restaurants 5 of which i assume are oriental ( i don't personally know all of them). They are miyabi, tatsuso, imperial city, pacific oriental and sri siam.

i reckon that's 27% of the total restaurants which seems quite balanced.

You may be right to question why some have not garnered stars but to say they are ignored is incorrect. I'm sure the GFG doesn't award these places 10/10 either so i would say there is a reasonable concensus amongst the guides.

(though i don't see how gfg award st john an award for seafood )

cheers

gary

[Tonyfinch]

Gary, I stand corrected re their inclusion.

However why those three don't have a star while Club Gascon does would be nice to know but Michelin would not deign to tell us.

[Gary Marshall]

They work in mysterious ways but perhaps they'd stand a better chance as the Real Gascon, St Jean and Le Moro

[KaryLou]

I'm surprised Hakkasan got a star. I've had better service at Burger King.

[Thomas Secor]

I agree with Karylou. I dont have much investment in the Michelin star/French bias debate, but one thing I would ask for is consistency. If Michelin ratings are supposed to imply a certain level of service, among other characteristics, then it is incumbent upon the Michelin reviewers to stick to those guidelines. As has been noted on this board numerous times, and in many reviews, the level of service at Hakkasan, particularly considering the price, is close to appalling. It is very clear that service staff are hired based upon youthful model-like good looks (perhaps that should be a Michelin criteria, but to my knowledge is not) and not for their service excellence. I have received wrong orders, had miscalculated bills, had courses intolerably stretched out, and then jammed together, over and over again at Hakkasan.

Look, the food's good, the place is funky (in a relatively safe, trendy kind of way), the drinks list is pretty right on, and its a pretty nice place to pass a night chowing down, getting pissed, and watching people snogging in the corner and experiencing the early effects of the ex thats going to take them through the night.

But is that really Michelin?

[peterpumkino]

A flippant analogy, but I'm thinking of the swinging change from hearty, heavily sauced Italian food in 70's trattorias, to River Cafe, Locanda Locatelli (please don't mention the 'real Italian' thread) et al.

Considering the depth of culture in China, and the artistic indulgences of it's historical ruling classes why did it's cuisine not reach the levels of refinement and luxury seen in other societies? Maybe it has, but has it never been exported? People who have eaten a lot more Chinese food in China than me tell me that is not the case.

Thom, sorry but it IS a flippant analogy considering that heavily sauced pasta is NOT Real Italian and Locatelli and River Cafe are both a million miles away from Real Italian (that does not mean they are not both good, of course).

You are spot on about Chinese food. Having travellede and eaten extensively through China I can confirm that your friends are right. The food in China is GENERALLY not great(please no one email me with examples of memorable meals in China, I've had them too. Memories of sitting in the street in a small town on the Yangtse River that is no longer there - flooded a while back - eating an incredible Szechwan Hot Pot comes to mind, although I did pay for it the next day!). Chinese food in China should be much better than it is although, to my mind, it gets better the more you head South.

[StephenT]

please don't mention the 'real Italian'

heavily sauced pasta is NOT Real Italian

[peterpumkino]

ps all real italian fans don't miss locatelli on telly tonight

Gary, I think you meant 'all real italian fans should miss locatelli on telly tonight'

[Adam Balic]

Considering the depth of culture in China, and the artistic indulgences of it's historical ruling classes why did it's cuisine not reach the levels of refinement and luxury seen in other societies? Maybe it has, but has it never been exported? People who have eaten a lot more Chinese food in China than me tell me that is not the case.

thom - better late then never. Could it be that much of the high end, refined court cooking that you speak of was effectively wiped out on the mainland during the events of the Cultural Revolution? Certainly, many of the Chinese Aristos that re-settled in Taiwan seem to have taken a more refined (if you will) style of cooking with them and it is from Taiwan that many great Chinese chefs are trained. Similar to what happend to England when the French had their revolution, except they did have the luck to make an impact on the tastes of was was the most powerful Empire on the planet at the time.

[tony h]

I noted the follwoing from the press release, among other things:

-- John Burton-Race at the Landmark recently closed.  Any member updates on this development?

hurrah, hurrah - its celebration time. vile food & service

[tony h]

Philippe Legendre at Le Cinq in the Four Seasons Hotel George V Paris will get three stars.

he doesn't deserve it - foods very good at 2 stars but lacks the wow factor needed for 3

love the room 'though

[John Man]

The dim sum were actually very good (for me personally I have always felt dim sum are the most delicious and inventive element in any good Chinese restaurant), but they still lagged behind the Yang Sing - I'm spoilt.

The main courses sounded excellent, but this is where Chinese restaurants normally fall down.

"main courses" ? I assume this means that you went to Hakkasan for dinner where they offer some dim sum as starters.

Dim sum is actually a meal in itself. The dim sum menu at Hakksan is much more extensive and exciting than the handful of dim sum items on the dinner menu. I'd recommend that you go on Sunday lunchtime and ask your waiter about the dim sum/Chinese dessert specials for that day (usually about two to three).

[Basildog]

And i told you so...ner ner ner

Click

Good to see Paul Ripley get a star at Ripley's in St Merryn, top bloke and my fave restaurant.Well done!

I think thats the only star in Cornwall

EDIT...no, theres another one somewhere...help?

Edited January 19, 2003 by Basildog (log)

[thom]

John,

Nope, I went for lunch. I was just very greedy (for professional research reasons of course).

We had a selection of dim sum (all around £3-£4), but also had three 'main 'meals (all around £8-£12) which we ordered with rice and noodles.

I know Chinese food doesn't traditionally fit into the 'three course' structure, but they were in effect main dishes.

To be honest I haD no problem with the dim sum, they were good, but as I said before I have had lots of good dim sum, it seems to be the high point in many Chinese meals. My problem was the dull unimaginative mains, which didn't rise much above the mediocre, whilst the price, surroundings and recent star would have led you to believe they should.

Adam. Good answer. Thats the sort of thing I was imagining. I have eaten when in Taiwan, but I was young and feckless and didn't seek out good food as I should have done (in fact I may even have chickened out and had a lonely McDonalds on one occasion). I would love to go back for a second try (the local Taiwanese food rather than the McDonalds).

Cheers

Thom

[John Man]

Thom,

I don't claim to be an expert on Chinese food but my understanding (from Chinese family, friends, etc) is that dim sum is the meal rather than being part of a meal, i.e. you order just dim sum by itself to share with others rather than dim sum followed by "mains", rice and noodles. For this reason, it's not quite right to refer to dim sum as "the high point in many Chinese meals" and also for the fact that dim sum is Cantonese in origin (as compared to the many other different regional cuisines in China).

I'm told that there are restaurants in Beijing which have revived the use of the old imperial recipes for the food which used to be served to the emperor.

Adam - I'm not sure about the cultural revolution argument. That only lasted ten years and my gut reaction is that it could not have wiped out all the people who did the cooking you refer to and/or their records. Perhaps it's more the case that the people who fled to Taiwan mostly came from a particular region of China ?

Regards

John

Edited January 20, 2003 by John Man (log)