Behold My Butt! (2007– )

[jgm]

Reheating will kill bacteria, but not the toxins they create.

[TheFoodTutor]

Reheating will kill bacteria, but not the toxins they create.

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Agreed.

To put things in perspective: Years ago, many of our ancestors wouldn't have thought twice about putting the roast back into the fire after leaving it out at room temp (or even a sweltering savanna temp) for hours and hours. More recently, my own relatives 40 years ago wouldn't have thought much of leaving partially cooked meat out for hours and then roasting it again for service.

There is a gamble involved here, and you probably won't kill anyone, almost certainly. But the odds of the gamble are really known better by you than by anyone here, since we don't know exactly what time you turned off the heat and went to sleep, and when you woke up, etc.

If I were in your place, I might be willing to go ahead and cook it the rest of the way, given that the end product might be particularly delicious, and my friends might enjoy it immensely, even with a slight risk involved.

Good luck!

[Dave the Cook]

Yes, you can put it in the oven to finish it--whole.

It is a myth that internal temp causes or means 'done' when it comes to barbecue. A specific internal might correlate with tender but it also might not.

If you wrap the pork in foil the finishing will be quicker but you'll lose some bark texture. If you don't, more time will be needed. In either case, the pork is done when the bone is loose (if it is bone-in), a probe enters effortlessly into the meat, and the meat begins to fall apart when you handle it. This can happen (especially if there is a secondary plateau) in the 180s. (I have many butts never reach 190 that are fall-apart tender.)

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The stall is the key to perfect pulled pork. At some point in the cooking process, the internal temperature of the meat will stop rising, or at least slow greatly. Collagen converts to gelatin at 160F. It takes some time at or above that temperature to get full conversion; the amount of time depends on how much collagen is present. The stall is a result of energy being diverted to conversion.

It's easiest to monitor this with a remote temperature probe, so you aren't always having to open the oven door. When you see the stall, just pay attention, and when the temperature starts to go back up more quickly, you're done. As klkruger notes, it's almost impossible to predict at what internal temperature this will happen.

I wouldn't worry about pathogens. When you first start, pathogens are only on the surface of the meat, so you've killed them off. While it's possible that new bugs could have been introduced during the "resting" period you gave it, it seems highly unlikely.

[Dave the Cook]

Reheating will kill bacteria, but not the toxins they create.

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Agreed.

. . . . .

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Specifically, what pathogens are you talking about?

[klkruger]

The issue here--or, rather, the potential issue here--would be Staph. aureus. S. aureus isn't a concern on raw meat because it is a very poor competitor with the spoilage bacteria that are present and growth is minimal. It can become a problem after cooking if the meat is handled (many people carry S. aureus on their skin) or from an errant cough or sneeze. Other than cross contamination (touching raw chicken, say, then the cooked pork, or putting the cooked pork on an unclean cutting board), S. aureus can cause problems if the meat is handled then not cooled relatively quickly. It does produce heat stable toxins. Outgrowth and toxin production takes many hours (many more than 4). I am not seeing a concern here.

[alexthecook]

This has become a very, very interesting discussion! For the record, I turned off the oven (which I had raised to 300 for the last 15 minutes to make it remain hot longer) at around 1 am. At 7 am I opened the oven, prodded the meat with a finger, put aluminum foil over the pan and put it in the fridge.

By the way, I'm using the vietnamese pulled pork recipe from Sunday Nite Dinner: http://sundaynitedinner.com/vietnamese-pulled-pork

The little bit of fat and meat I sliced off before going to bed was amazing (especially the fat), dipped in pan juices/basting liquid.

Edited August 22, 2008 by alexthecook (log)

[NancyH]

I agree with Tino. If you were just feeding yourself, that's one thing. But the 4 hour "danger zone" rule is basic food service safety protocol for anyone who is cooking for someone else, and for good reason.

If someone who has taken Servesafe or has similar training cares to disagree, I'll stand corrected. But I wouldn't take a chance making people sick. It's not worth it. When in doubt, throw it out.

[santo_grace]

How will you know if someone got sick from the pork or the alcohol - it is a stag party after all. Blame it on the booze

[klkruger]

The FDA/USDA (and, by extension, ServSafe) are tasked with informing the public, providing protocols, certifying food service employees, etc. Ask anyone in any of those agencies for the science-based data they have to support the '4-hour rule' and you'll likely be met with blank stares--because there isn't any.

Pathogenic and toxigenic bacteria do not wear watches nor do the food items on which they grow. How long food can remain safe can vary widely and is utterly dependent on the nature of the food, its pH, what the temps achieved during cooking were, how long it took for the temps to fall and the time, especially, that the item was between 70 and 105, and several other factors. (My conncern with the above stems from the recent post stating the meat was covered when fridged. Unless cool first, that shouldn't happen.)

ServSafe and the consumer material from the FDA/USDA use fairly dumbed down info for training and for consumers because it is succinct: neat and tidy. All, e.g., will say to reheat properly cooked and properly cooled/chilled items to 165--but this is not supported by science. Even their 'danger zone' of 40-140 isn't correct (it's 40-130).

'When in doubt...' is fine--but ignorant. That's okay if one isn't working with sufficient information. It's out there though. Just don't expect it from ServSafe.

Edited August 22, 2008 by klkruger (log)

[Dr. Teeth]

Hi, MD here. Luke warm pork sitting in an oven all day is perfect set up for Staph food poisioning. Does that mean it's 100% people will get sick - no. But to serve that pork is irresponsible.

[klkruger]

Realist here. 'All day' didn't occur. One isn't going to see Staph outgrowth during cooking. The meat would have to have been handled as temps dropped. Staph aureus is destroyed by pasteurization (which had occured already), so post-cook contamination is a necessary step. It wasn't handled till the morning when it was then fridged (I don't like the 'covered' issue, as noted) and could have been contaminated at that point, but I do not see suitable conditions for toxigenesis unless the meat was fridged warm and covered. (If it was it should be pitched.)

Edited August 22, 2008 by klkruger (log)

[alexthecook]

For the record, the pork was basically room temp when I covered it.

[klkruger]

Well, then using the info you've provided (times, temps, when it was touched, fridged) I don't see anything that supports the assertion that it needs to be thrown out.

If you're going to finish cooking it do so. Rest the pork post cook then pull it while it's hot. Either keep it hot after pulling (all parts >130) or cool it quickly for reheating at another time. DO NOT pack warm pork in a container and fridge it. Pull the pork and place shallowly in pans and allow to cool (chilling the pans first will speed cooling) then, when cool-ish, place the pans (uncovered if nothing is above them; loosely covered if something is) in the fridge till cold. Then cover tightly. You can combine the pans' contents if you'd like, placing all in one pan or into a Zip-loc or whatever, after all is cold.

Edited August 22, 2008 by klkruger (log)

[tupac17616]

Been awhile since we've talked butt. Please consider the following an instructional series on what happens when you have no idea what the heck you are doing. Notice, for example, the temperature fluctuations. Good times. Could I tell you how long we smoked the butt? Nope. Could I tell you it was really friggin' good? Yep.

Butt + smoke = good. That's all I know.

Mound the pork on the bottom half of a roll. Top the pork with Betty's cole slaw. Add the top half of the roll. Devour.

Repeat as necessary.

[Camano Chef]

I haven't followed all posts to this thread, so I may be redundant.

I usually do Boston Butt using a Bradley Smoker.

I completely season the meat with a spicy dry rub then completely coat the meat with yellow mustard and refrigerate for about 24 hours. I use about four hours of hickory smoke. Set the pit temperature to 190 degrees F. and cook until I reach an internal temperature of 180-185 degrees F. This usually takes 12-18 hours.

The mustard seems to disappear and leaves a beautiful crust on the meat.

This method takes a while and has to be pre planned for a dinner but the results are outstanding with very few leftovers.

I hope my experience helps.

Respectfully

[lancastermike]

I haven't followed all posts to this thread, so I may be redundant.

I usually do Boston Butt using a Bradley Smoker.

I completely season the meat with a spicy dry rub then completely coat the meat with yellow mustard and refrigerate for about 24 hours.  I use about four hours of hickory smoke.  Set the pit temperature to 190 degrees F. and cook until I reach an  internal temperature of 180-185 degrees F.  This usually takes 12-18 hours.

The mustard seems to disappear and leaves a beautiful crust on the meat.

This method takes a while and has to be pre planned for a dinner but the results are outstanding with very few leftovers.

I hope my experience helps.

Respectfully

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Welcome to EG and to the highly regarded butt topic. There are other Bradley users here and your method seems solid.

[Chris Amirault]

I completely season the meat with a spicy dry rub then completely coat the meat with yellow mustard and refrigerate for about 24 hours. 

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Welcome, Camano Chef!

Tell me about this mustard coating. Wet? Dry? I worry that the mustard would absorb the smoke and prevent a pellicle on the butt. Thoughts?

[Marlene]

The mustard coating is something I ran into in a cookbook recently, but was for ribs. I tried it (wet mustard) and it worked amazingly. The mustard taste disappeared, but the crust and flavour on the ribs was the best I'd ever had. Yes, there was a rub too.

I can imagine that this would work very well on a smoked butt.

[Chris Amirault]

Was at my favorite carnicaria buying bellies and hocks for cassoulet, knew I had to do some smoking of the hocks, and figured, what the heck: time to do a butt. I'll try to document a few of the steps I've been using lately.

Here be my fine skin-on, bone-in fanny:

As noted a few times above, I scored the butt skin a cross-hatch pattern:

I then applied the basic rub I've been using, just a riff on several others out there. It's not too hot and has a variety of spices in it. Anything whole was weighed and then ground:

40 g salt

40 g sugar (turbinado)

10 g black pepper

8 g powdered mustard (Coleman's)

8 g ancho chile

8 g New Mexico chile

8 g zataar

5 g white pepper

5 g cinnamon stick

4 g allspice

4 g nutmeg

2 anise seed

2 cloves

With such a big butt -- it's 10+ lbs -- it's a bit of a trick to wrap it with standard plastic wrap. I use my roasting pan to lay out six or seven sheets of wrap both horizontally and vertically, leaving plenty of extra, and then put the butt into the pan before I season. Then when I'm done, I just wrap it up one sheet at a time, leaving a well-sealed butt:

A lot of those tips are old hat for the butt smokin' crowd, but I thought they might be useful to nudge the novices into our little circle.

[snowangel]

Chris, thanks for bringing this up, and it reminds me that I have a fine butt in the freezer. I will also attest to just how successful scoring the butt was. More penetration with both smoke and the rub (although I personally prefer my butts neked).

Oh, and what a nicely wrapped butt you've photo'd!

(Were Peter home and not at Winter Camp, he'd be reading over my shoulder and having a great big belly laugh!)

[Andrew Fenton]

I'm thinking about a butt this weekend-- it's been too long-- and am wondering about brining vs. rubbing it. In the past, I've usually brined (following Klink's instructions) and been happy with the resulting Carolina-style pulled pork. Juicy and straightforward flavors: pork, salt, smoke. But now I'm pondering a rub. Hmm. Hmmm. Hmmmmmmmmm.

[Chris Amirault]

I'm a rub convert. I keep thinking about how hard it is to brine a ham, and then think about my dinky one-day brine, and, well....

[Andrew Fenton]

Actually, I've never found brining a 8-10 pound butt to be too much of a challenge. And when it's refrigerator temperature outside, why, it's a piece of cake!

Still, I think a rub it will be. Maybe I'll try a pic-a-nic shoulder instead, go for a Cuban vibe, and get some nice crispy skin in there. Yes, that will do nicely.

[Chris Amirault]

I should have said "how hard it is to brine a ham effectively." Sticking the thing in a cooler with brine and ice-packs is easy to do. Actually brining an entire butt -- and not just the outer fractions of an inch -- effectively is another thing entirely.

[KeystoneNate]

After being stuck at a desk all week, I thought some quality time spent with a big hunk of pork would be a nice way to break the daily grind. Plus, the weather has really improved over the past couple of days and some time outside is most welcome. I've smoked three pork shoulders on my Weber (kettle grill, not a dedicated smoker) using all of the tips and guidance accumulated on this thread. So thanks to everyone for posting pictures and stories - the information has been fantastic.

I've always brined and smoked the other butts, but I wanted to try something different with this one, just to give it a shot. I used chrisamirault's dry rub recipe (minus the zataar and New Mexico chiles, but double the ancho), posted above, and the ten-pound butt is now happily relaxing in the smoke. I made =mark's South Carolina barbecue sauce this morning, along with some coleslaw. Some bread dough is proofing and will be baked into soft rolls for pulled pork sandwiches, of course.

Some pics for your enjoyment:

Scored, rubbed, and ready for the refrigerator

Two hours into the smoke

Texture closeup

I started around 7:30 this morning and the internal temp is now 136F, so it has quite some time to go. I'm planning on having some friends over tomorrow afternoon, but I know my wife and I will each enjoy a sandwich tonight, no matter how late the pork comes out of the smoker.