The etiquette of being served first

[hollywood]

polysytrene ones

hollywood -- I haven't focused in on polystyrene ones. What do they look like?

Ones I've seen are a sort of greenish-white tupperware-ish looking thing. Obviously, they could come in any color. I think lesser hotels use them for room service, but I've seen them in restaurants.

Edited December 10, 2002 by hollywood (log)

[ngatti]

The cloches are not a real solution. The dish still loses part of what it had, albeit perhaps at a slower rate.  I have also wondered whether the heat traped inside the cloche might continue, to a very limited extent, the heating up or cooking of the shielded contents in a manner that is undesirable (???).

Absolutely Cabby! I will not stand for having certain plates covered. Get it out! Get it out fast! Get it infront of the diner quickly. Lest the residual heat kill the dish.

Nick

[Liza]

Not to jump on the rational explanation for etiquette boat, but shaking hands starting some time long ago as a way for people meeting eachother to be assured that the neither one was holding a weapon.

[Wilfrid]

Correct, Liza, which is why it doesn't make sense.

The conversation has advanced one step since my strictures of yesterday. We now know that Fat Bloke's position is as follows:

"What we're talking about are accepted good manners among people who bother to focus on issues of etiquette (agreed). And among those people I would say that it is entirely acceptable, indeed required, to eat hot food when it is served. Not eating hot food when it is served places the person on whose account everybody else is waiting in an awkward position, and that's just plain bad manners." Comment and emphasis added.

In my view that's just incorrect. We aren't talking about a situation where someone is absent for a long period - we are talking, frankly, about a quick comfort break. I do not know anyone - now with the sole exception of Fat Bloke - who thinks it is good manners to start eating in those circumstances. And I don't see any of the promised research or citations either.

Is there anyone out there who thinks Shaw is right? (Cabby's still talking about France; I am talking about the United States).

[cabrales]

I believe Steven is right, even as to the US. My sense is that the US is generally more lax on etiquette (no positive or negative connotations necessarily intended) than at restaurants in France. With all respect, there appears to be reduced alertness to etiquette in the US.

Separately, note that, relative to certain peers (e.g., Bouley), Lespinasse does aspire towards, and likely achieves, a more "French" "feel" with respect to service. The lunch maitre d' (or comparable lead of the dining room team) spoke fluent French, and appeared to be French. Several of the commis de salle spoke French, for example.

[macrosan]

With all respect, there appears to be reduced alertness to etiquette in the US.

My experience of the USA is obviously narrower than Cabby's, but maybe I tend more often to be in the company of people whom I know less well (customers, acquaintances, etc). My experience is different from Cabby's. I find Americans just as etiquette conscious as the British.

And on that subject, what happened to us in the conversation ? I too would exclude the French from the discussion but the Brits are in. And Wilfrid is right in his assessment of what the vast majority of Brits would say about the circumstance described. They would all wait to eat, and it would be considered poor etiquette not to do so.

On the different question of whether it is sensible, I guess that is like whether wearing a bow-tie at a black-tie dinner is sensible, or letting a woman go through a doorway first is sensible, or whether addressing people by their first names is sensible. Interesting questions, but nothing to do with etiquette which is not founded on sensibility.

[Wilfrid]

Voice of reason, Macrosan. For once, it would be interesting to have a poll, because I am convinced Fat Bloke and Cabrales are no more than a vocal minority on this one.

[Ron Johnson]

Could someone who is an expert give me the absolutely proper pronunciation of the word cloche or cloches?

Thanks much.

[Dave the Cook]

klosh with a long 'o'

You're welcome.

[lxt]

A huge amount of everyday etiquette doesn't make sense - shaking hands?

Or making a toast. Clinking the glasses had the purpose of sloshing the drinks together on impact as a precautionary measure to avoid being poisoned by one of your friends. Therefore, the fate prepared for the friend would be shared by oneself as well. These days, aggression is served up more impersonally, through auditors and attorneys.

There are two etiquette approaches to consider when not dining alone. One relates directly to purely gastronomic practices as described by Cabrales and the other is attributed to social manners that may be no less important depending on the purpose of the dinner. Dining with a companion when a social function is the center of the event (a business dinner or a date) places certain obligations on you not only to make your companion feel comfortable, but also to avoid awkwardness when the business or other matters are discussed. I am not sure whether your companion will feel more uncomfortable knowing that you had to wait for him to start the meal or feeling a stare while he continues sipping the soup at the time others are finished. If the person were sensitive, his reaction could be not to finish the soup, which in an extreme situation may result in his finishing business with you instead. Who would want that? This is a perfect example of common sense employed in building social etiquette. It is pretty much the same as not asking a person personal questions on the first day of acquaintance.

Not serving the food simultaneously to all diners is a mistake and should be considered the responsibility of the restaurant. If an error is made, you have the choice to complain and request a service correction from the restaurant, to disregard your companion and proceed alone, or to sacrifice the quality of the dish to show a certain respect and solidarity to your dining companion. Your choice.

Edited December 10, 2002 by lxt (log)

[Fat Guy]

Let's go to some sources, bearing in mind that no source I know of speaks directly to the question of the absent diner at a restaurant table. Nonetheless, I think it's clear where the weight of expert opinion lies based on the two most on-point examples I can find:

From Letitia Baldridge's Complete Guide to the New Manners for the '90s:

"Everyone else at the table should wait to eat until the last person is served or has served himself. An exception to this rule is when the food on the table is hot. Then it is the responsibility of the host to urge his or her guests to begin eating at once, as soon as they are served: 'Please do start. Your soup will become cold, and it tastes so much better hot!'"

From Epicurious.com:

"Food is always served from the left, and the silver service fork is placed to the left of the spoon, with both utensils angled in toward the food so that they can be easily picked up by the next person served. Also, start eating hot food when it is served--don't wait for everyone to begin."

(Hi LXT)

[tommy]

what is appropriate when it's known that the host or even a few members at the table prefer to say grace when the food is in front of them? my family never said grace in the buffet line, but rather waited until everyone was seated. and i'm pretty sure god strikes you dead if you eat before saying grace.

oh what a dilemma.

[Liza]

From Letitia Baldridge's Complete Guide to the New Manners for the '90s:

"Everyone else at the table should wait to eat until the last person is served or has served himself. An exception to this rule is when the food on the table is hot. Then it is the responsibility of the host to urge his or her guests to begin eating at once, as soon as they are served: 'Please do start. Your soup will become cold, and it tastes so much better hot!'"

So, at a restaurant, should the chef come over and do the urging, or should the server?

[Wilfrid]

Yeah, they're not really on point, are they? These aren't situations when one diner is briefly absent. These are situations where a large table of (present) diners are being served one by one, not where all diners are served simultaneously, but one happens to be absent.

Edited December 10, 2002 by Wilfrid (log)

[tommy]

Yeah, they're not really applicable, are they?  These aren't situations when one diner is briefly absent.

who. what.

edit: thanks for the clarification.

how is it not applicable? if the food is on the table, and getting cold, i would have to assume that the "rules" would kick in.

i don't see how one person being in the bathroom while everyone's food is on the table is different from one person being in the kitchen washing his hands and turning off the stove while everyone's food is on the table, as far as this discussion goes.

Edited December 10, 2002 by tommy (log)

[g.johnson]

If it’s not considered polite for everyone to start together, why do high end restaurants sometimes have multiple servers present everyone’s plate simultaneously?

[Liza]

As long as hand washing occurs in both situations, right?

[Wilfrid]

Tommy, I just think the quotes Fat Bloke gave us are dealing with banquets or large dinner parties, where everyone is sitting their with their bibs under their chins, while waiters waltz around gradually serving the table. In such circumstances, diners may be encouraged to begin eating when their food arrives.

Maybe you would draw the same conclusion about a situation where four people are served simultaneously, but one is briefly absent. But it's a different situation, and I need some convincing that it's what the authors of those quotes had in mind.

Anyway, I thought you were in the camp that you give the asbentee a chance to get back before tucking in? Consider a situation where you and I are dining with Mrs Tommy and the Beloved. Mrs Tommy and the Beloved take a nose powdering break when the appetizers are removed, but the entree shows up before they return. Do you start eating? I bet you don't.

[Fat Guy]

Wilfrid, since you're saying the examples are not on point, might you be willing to give a reason why the slightly different facts would warrant a different outcome? And do you have any examples that are more on point than mine? Or even some reasoning beyond your gut feeling on this?

G., I think you're confusing what's proper etiquette for the restaurant with what's proper etiquette for the customers. We've already established that the restaurant makes the first faux pas by serving some but not others. The question is what to do when that happens.

[tommy]

Do you start eating?  I bet you don't.

of course i don't. i'm just trying to point out the absurdity of the other argument.

Edited December 10, 2002 by tommy (log)

[g.johnson]

G., I think you're confusing what's proper etiquette for the restaurant with what's proper etiquette for the customers. We've already established that the restaurant makes the first faux pas by serving some but not others. The question is what to do when that happens.

Yes, but the only reason it's a faux pas for the restaurant is because people are expected to wait for all to be served.

[hollywood]

If it’s not considered polite for everyone to start together, why do high end restaurants sometimes have multiple servers present everyone’s plate simultaneously?

Adds to the show? So the food won't get cold?

[Wilfrid]

For once, I am not basing my argument on reasoning, but on a pretty generous empirical sample. In all my years of eating in restaurants, it's hard to remember anyone (at a dinner with some level of formality) behaving other than I have proposed. I just can't imagine Tommy wolfing down his food in the circumstances I outlined in the post above. Or anyone else.

So far, you are the only clear cut dissenter*, and I'm expecting more than those slightly iffy quotes to persuade me I'm wrong.

*I think Cabby's dissenting, but I'm still a bit vague as to whether she's recommending we switch to the French model or claiming that people in the States generally behave like the French already.

[g.johnson]

If it’s not considered polite for everyone to start together, why do high end restaurants sometimes have multiple servers present everyone’s plate simultaneously?

Adds to the show? So the food won't get cold?

Adds to the show I guess, but there still has to be some rationale behind it.

The temperature of the food will depend on delay between plating and serving. By insisting on simultaneous serving at least some of the plates will be colder than if they been served as soon as plated.

[g.johnson]

Edit: Multiple post.

Edited December 10, 2002 by g.johnson (log)