Lotus of Siam (Vegas) to Open in Ex-Cru Space?

[prasantrin]

Lotus of Siam absolutely does not offer chopsticks as part of its standard table setting. In my mind, offering chopsticks is usually a dead giveaway that the place is not authentic and is catering to some other group's idea of what Thai food is. LOS proffers spoon and fork, in proper Thai style. However, for some courses, they offered a fish spoon/spade in place of a typical tablespoon...I'm guessing this was an effort to "upscale" the feel of the setting, while still providing a utensil configuration close to authentic.

That's why I asked. The default table setting should only include a spoon and fork, and chopsticks should only be offered with noodle dishes.

[LPShanet]

Lotus of Siam absolutely does not offer chopsticks as part of its standard table setting. In my mind, offering chopsticks is usually a dead giveaway that the place is not authentic and is catering to some other group's idea of what Thai food is. LOS proffers spoon and fork, in proper Thai style. However, for some courses, they offered a fish spoon/spade in place of a typical tablespoon...I'm guessing this was an effort to "upscale" the feel of the setting, while still providing a utensil configuration close to authentic.

That's why I asked. The default table setting should only include a spoon and fork, and chopsticks should only be offered with noodle dishes.

That was, in fact, the default table setting used. Lotus of Siam is quite authentic in Las Vegas, and maybe slightly less so (at least for now) but still close here. It certainly isn't one of those typical American fakes with chopsticks, etc. On to the food:

We started with Tuna Koi Soy, which was diced raw tuna cubes in a dusting of Kaffir lime, mint, cilantro and chilies. It was like an elevated version of a dish I'd had a number of times in Thailand, and one of the spicier of the evening. The preparation was somewhat like a good laab/larb with slivered onion, etc. A very good start.

That was followed by an assortment of standard Thai appetizer fare. Though many of these items were the least interesting due to their ubiquity at Western Thai places, they were very well executed...great versions of their kind. They included a crisp fried shrimp roll that had been wrapped in a thin layer of bacon before frying, a chicken satay, boneless chicken wings stuffed with vegetables and chicken (sort of like a roulade, and nam kao tod, which is sausage with crispy rice, chili, ginger, peanuts and lime. The nam kao tod is similar to one of their signature dishes in Vegas, which is sort of a hybrid in a way between what we ate and the tuna koi soy. In the Vegas version, it's a larb style salad (usually with beef) in which the protein is dusted in the same spice as used in the tuna koi soy, but also features the crisp rice, chili, peanuts and lime of the nam kao tod. It's one of the star dishes in Vegas, and I assume they'll bust it out once the a la carte menu comes here.

The next course was the soup course. They did both a clear shrimp soup (tom yum koong) and a coconut milk soup (tom kha hed). The clear soup was quite good, but not special. The coconut version was fantastic, with deep flavor and a great body. My only complaint is that both were milder than I would usually associate with authentic Thai fare. And the version of the coconut soup I had in their Vegas outpost was much spicier. This seemed to carry on throughout the meal.

The next course featured a pair of yum salads: soft shell crab yum and green mango yum. The soft shell crab had a great texture, perfectly greaseless and very crisp and light. However, the accompanying apple slivers could have used some help to boost spice and acidity. The simpler-seeming green mango version was actually much better balanced, which came as a surprise, with great acidity and a nice kick. Both were surprisingly mild, though.

Next a seafood course. Scallop krathiam prik thai (seared sea scallop with garlic and cilantro pepper sauce) and seabass king sot (seabass with ginger sauce). In this case, I think the mildness of the spicing was appropriate, since the flavors of both dishes were subtle and might have been lost a bit with a really high heat level. These dishes would both have been at home in Western fine dining restaurants, for better or for worse.

Lastly for the mains, a pair of curries, one red (with beef and fresh and dried chilis) and one green (with chicken and thai eggplant). The red curry was one of the spicier dishes of the night, and my fellow diners and I agreed it was the spice level we would have liked throughout. Hot, but not so overwhelming that you can't taste anything else (what some people refer to as "dare hot"). The green was a bit milder than authentic green curries usually are, but the flavors were great. Both curries had a thickness that you usually see in high end places in Bangkok, and that I really like. Too often, curries (especially green) are made quickly, and end up quite watery in texture, even when the flavors are at the right level...probably due to not reducing them enough. These had perfect body and were really great.

For dessert, a simple riff on the classic Thai sticky rice dessert dish, with condensed milk. Simple, unassuming, and really good.

Overall, it was a great meal, but I just couldn't help feeling that maybe Chef Chutima was pulling her punches a bit on all the food, or trying to present a more "refined" or Westernized version of her food than I experienced in the Vegas restaurant. Prior to striking the NY deal, they had expressed concern about what would have to be done to open in New York, and maybe they are trying too hard to present a somehow upscaled version of the food served at the Vegas outpost. I hope this isn't the case, and I hope that once the a la carte menu is available, we get all the same stuff they have in Vegas. My preview was certainly more than good enough to warrant multiple return visits to find out. I have no word yet on when the full menu will be in place, but it should be soon if not already.

[jsmeeker]

I find it fascinating that Las Vegas is sending a restaurant to New York. The typical move is for restaurants to go from places like New York or Paris to Las Vegas. Such a great feather in the cap of Las Vegas. OF course, I hope the Las Vegas location doesn't slip or falter. (Not that I really think it will). I don't know much about Thai. But I have been to LoS in Las Vegas. Ordered a bunch of stuff. They even gave us the separate northern Thai menu, so we had at least one dish off of that. My only regret was not ordering the sticky rice for dessert.

[Sneakeater]

From most reports, the danger isn't that the New York branch will drain the Las Vegas one.

It's that the Las Vegas operation has put too little into the New York branch. (I've heard the chef was only over here in New York a few weeks -- which makes you wonder how heavily the local cooks were trained.)

To be clear, this isn't based on personal experience with the New York branch. I haven't been yet. But what I've heard isn't making me want to rush over. And I LOVED the Las Vegas restaurant.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Sneakeater (log)

[Fat Guy]

Craftsteak launched in Las Vegas then came to New York. The New York branch is now closed and Las Vegas still thrives. There may be some other examples. I'm not sure.

Lotus of Siam New York seems to have no buzz at all. I wonder how things are going down there.

[jsmeeker]

Ok.. Interesting example. But Crafsteak was part of Tom Colicchio's empire. And his empire didn't start off in Las Vegas. Lotus is a true Las Vegas original. And as has been pointed out, wasn't even in a mega casino resort.

[LPShanet]

I find it fascinating that Las Vegas is sending a restaurant to New York. The typical move is for restaurants to go from places like New York or Paris to Las Vegas. Such a great feather in the cap of Las Vegas. OF course, I hope the Las Vegas location doesn't slip or falter. (Not that I really think it will). I don't know much about Thai. But I have been to LoS in Las Vegas. Ordered a bunch of stuff. They even gave us the separate northern Thai menu, so we had at least one dish off of that. My only regret was not ordering the sticky rice for dessert.

I think what you're referring to (restaurants from NY opening up branches in Vegas) is part of a totally different animal than what we're talking about here. Rather than creating a facsimile of a successful big city restaurant in Vegas so that the tourists can get in on the action and the owners can cash in on their success (which is what happens in most NY/LA/Paris to Vegas transplants), this one is a totally different situation. LOS is not part of the Strip, nor of the moneyed Vegas culture. Consider it just a coincidence that the original happens to be in Vegas. It could be in any strip mall in any smaller city in the US. However, it is worth noting that most such efforts to bring other cities' top restaurants to NY haven't done well in the past.

I did get back to LOS NY a few weeks ago, having had the prix fixe previously. On my second visit, I was able to sample some items from the a la carte menu, and have a slightly better sense of what the place is likely to be like going forward. Unfortunately, while I thought it was pretty decent, in my opinion it doesn't really do the LV original justice. Either accidentally or intentionally, the food at the NY branch feels noticeably more Westernized and less authentic than the original. The flavors can still be very good, and in a city with a limited number of good Thai restaurants, there's still a reason to go. But it certainly feels like it falls short of the LV mothership on many levels. The spice has been toned down quite a lot, the list of dishes is much shorter, and the overall feeling is that maybe they're trying to create a new version of their offering for what they think (probably wrongly) that NY audiences want. I enjoyed both of my meals there, but I didn't find it to be the eye opening experience that eating at the Vegas original is. With any luck, they may try to up their game, but I fear that we may now be seeing what we're gonna get. Can you do better in Queens? Probably. But there still isn't a whole lot in Manhattan for them to fight with, so it may be mostly a matter of whether Manhattanites are willing to pay an additional premium to eat at LOS versus the stuff they're already consuming.

Edited December 30, 2010 by LPShanet (log)

[jsmeeker]

It's interesting that there is the criticism of the "absent chef". That's the exact sort of criticism people like to lay on the Vegas strip hotel restaurants. When a chef DOES expand and create outposts, what is the normal amount of time spent in the new outpost to get things going? Di Chef Chutima spend the same amount of time in NYC recently as, say, Jose Andres did recently in Las Vegas?

[ellenost]

The reason why LOS NY isn't getting much "buzz" is for the one simple reason: it isn't that good. I travel frequently to LV, but haven't yet made it to LOS LV since many of my visits are solo (and I know I'd only be able to taste 2 or 3 dishes if I went solo to LOS LV). I went with my sister last month to LOS NY, and we were both very underwhelmed with the food. The portions are tiny and expensive. We're definitely not rushing back. Still would like to try LOS LV when I have someone else traveling with me.

[Sneakeater]

Actually, just to be completely accurate, isn't it true that LOS started somewhere in California and then moved to Las Vegas? (And I mean moved -- they didn't open a branch there, as they've done in New York, but relocated the restaurant.)

[Sneakeater]

It's interesting that there is the criticism of the "absent chef". That's the exact sort of criticism people like to lay on the Vegas strip hotel restaurants. When a chef DOES expand and create outposts, what is the normal amount of time spent in the new outpost to get things going? Di Chef Chutima spend the same amount of time in NYC recently as, say, Jose Andres did recently in Las Vegas?

First, there's a reason that many of us are suspicious of chain restaurants to begin with, no matter how exalted the nominal "chef" is.

But second, the criticism here isn't that the chef is absent. It's that she spent insufficient time training the New York kitchen staff. Nobody expects her to be here (or to have a closed circuit TV hook-up, the way Thomas Keller does with per se). But we do expect her to have spent adequate time getting her remote kitchen up to speed (which means, for a restaurant like LOS, operating at the highest possible level -- not just adequately).

And third, to the extent famous-chef chain restaurants succeed, it's because the nominal "chef" takes care to hire first-rate chefs de cuisine. (I don't have to name the many obvious examples.) Maybe the LOS people scoured America for a Thai chef equal to the restaurant's lead chef (it must be obvious by now I don't know her name) -- but I've heard no reports they have. There's no sign they put the effort in finding a first-rate chef de cuisine that, say, Daniel Boulud does to insure the quality of the restaurants that bear his name.

If you care about quality, opening a branch is hard work, and takes a whole lot of care and attention. I just don't see that happened here.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Sneakeater (log)

[jsmeeker]

Fair enough.

I think the normal way big name chefs find people to run outposts is to promote from within. Thomas Keller wants to open Bouchon in Las Vegas? Get one of the top guys in Yountville to go to the desert. I am gonna guess this didn't happen here with LoS.

[Sneakeater]

I'm only speculating, but I have a feeling that another problem with LOS NY is that the LOS people opened it with partners they don't have in LV -- and the partners are helping call the shots. I'm not sure the people behind LOS would have chosen, by themselves, to open in such an expensive location (where they are now is sort of the opposite of being "off the strip", as they are in LV). And I'm not sure they'd have chosen, by themselves, to dumb down the food, as has reportedly happened (perhaps on the assumption that they couldn't recoup their presumably high real estate costs serving challenging food).

My impression is that when NYC (and Paris) restaurants open branches in LV, the directive is to replicate (except maybe heighten) the original experience to the fullest extent possible. That doesn't appear to be what's happening with LOS NY.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Sneakeater (log)

[weinoo]

I don't know if it's a good or a bad thing that I haven't gotten here yet. As Eater reports...

Now, just over two months after opening, Flo Fab reports that the husband and wife team are leaving the restaurant in the hands of co-owner Roy Welland. They cite health problems and, more notably, differences with Welland (the former owner of Cru) over the pricing and the feel of the place.

I suppose it's just as well, as this way I get to remember LOSLV as it was and as it will evidently remain.