Ready, Steady ... Close

[Steve Plotnicki]

Gary - How well it is thought of in UK food guides doesn't mean very much if

international diners do not travel out of their way to eat there. People make weekends out of going to Padstow (to see Basildog that is.) At the Michelin star level, a restaurant's fortune rests on its fame. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Winteringham Fields isn't particuarly famous on the worldwide dining scene.

Basildog - This is true with any small business (including outside of the restaurant business) where the owner's unique efforts are associated with the name of the business. Look at La Tante Clare. Does it really have value without Pierre Koffman there? If PK sold his interest to someone else, everyone would know and everyone would wait to see if the new chef was as competent as PK? But it is different if we were talking about The Ivy isn't it? That has goodwill that is well beyond the name of any chef.

[AdamLawrence]

Steve - You're right to say that Winteringham isn't massively well known, but since it's full does that really matter? I guess if there were more relativley wealthy gastrotourists there the average wine spend might increase. But then Scunthorpe and Grimsby aren't great destinations for gastrotourists. Although I suppose a trip to the Grimsby fish market might be vaguely interesting. If only it weren't in Grimsby.

(no offence to any Grimsby readers out there....)

Adam

[Steve Plotnicki]

Adam - Well there's full and then there's full. I guess it all comes down to how much per head they earn for dinner. Then there is the issue of how many they seat, and whether they could expand and still sell the place out. Money, that awful, evil thing, has to be in the mix somewhere.

[Basildog]

I thought I worked hard in my small business, but listening to Basildog modestly describe his working hours/week/year, I realise that I am living on easy st.

I can imagine that there is by necessity a short shelf life for such an occupation as you get older, get different priorities and get worn out by the daily grind.

S

It's not all work Simon.We are currently closed for a month,will open for 3 weeks and then take another month off

I am hoping that these breaks will recharge the batteries, so that i don't "burn out" .

We will never make a fortune form our little place, but that realy is not our focus.We are here for the long haul, and the quality of life down here, to raise a family and to enjoy the day to day stuff.

[Lord Michael Lewis]

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Winteringham Fields isn't particuarly famous on the worldwide dining scene.

It certainly isn't unreasonable to say this. But, bearing in mind that it has 2 Michelin stars and features in the top ten restaurants in all the guidebooks, the reason for its relative obscurity is of interest.

It can only lie with those who make it their business to report on these places, the press.

[Basildog]

LML...it also lies with the owners.Maybe the don't want a high profile,The restaurant is full,they are making money...maybe they don't want the hassle of a public profile. with all the crap that that can bring?

[Lord Michael Lewis]

I think you're probably right. But the point is that if you don't court the press you get zero publicity. This is unfair and demonstrates that journalists are not really interested in food but rather in easy copy.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well considering how little known many of the restaurants on Harden's Top Ten list are this problem isn't exclusive to WF. And to blame it on the press is a little bit unfair. The press reports on what people are talking about, or what they think people need to know about. If word of mouth doesn't do it, sometimes restaurants have their own publicists. And sometimes there are organizations that restaurants belong to that promote them to the press (Relais & Chateau as an example.) And sometimes there are regional or national tourist offices that do it. Considering their lack of recognition (outside the UK,) it has to ultimately corrolate into a lower gross for the restaurants. But if we examined something the U.K. governmental and administrative authorities were happy promoting, golf, there are no shortage of foreigners in places like Gleneagles or at St. Andrews. So they do have the ability to do it if they wanted to. I just think the Brits don't have a good tradition of promoting their food products at that level.

[Tonyfinch]

Also the press, the TV media etc. are incredibly London focused in the UK. Far more so than,say,the French and Paris.

Food critics on national newspapers regularly make jokes about venturing into wild unknown territory when they go anywhere out of London, especially anywhere North, to write a review. Given that, you could argue that being where it is it's a tribute to the ownwers that WF was able to charge such high prices and remain so successful for so long.

Edited November 26, 2002 by Tonyfinch (log)

[Simon Majumdar]

Food critics on national newspapers regularly make jokes about venturing into wild unknown territory when they go anywhere out of London, especially anywhere North, to write a review.

You say this as if there is something wrong with it

S

[britcook]

Food critics on national newspapers regularly make jokes about venturing into wild unknown territory when they go anywhere out of London, especially anywhere North, to write a review.

You say this as if there is something wrong with it

S

It may have escaped your attention but the vast majority of the British population doesn't live in London, and some of them would like somewhere decent to eat.

Mind you there is a problem with the provinces, at one of our better local restaurants the owner said he could survive quite well by only opening two days a week, unfortunately they would both have to be Saturday. I think that's the difference between London (and other major cities) and the provinces, in the big cities people are dining out every night but out in the sticks it tends to be weekends only.

[Simon Majumdar]

Food critics on national newspapers regularly make jokes about venturing into wild unknown territory when they go anywhere out of London, especially anywhere North, to write a review.

You say this as if there is something wrong with it

S

It may have escaped your attention but the vast majority of the British population doesn't live in London, and some of them would like somewhere decent to eat.

Mind you there is a problem with the provinces, at one of our better local restaurants the owner said he could survive quite well by only opening two days a week, unfortunately they would both have to be Saturday. I think that's the difference between London (and other major cities) and the provinces, in the big cities people are dining out every night but out in the sticks it tends to be weekends only.

If they live in the provinces, they may LIKE to eat out, but do they DESERVE to eat out

Discuss?

[Tonyfinch]

One of the reasons for restaurant closures is be the incredibly high property prices in Britain compared to our European neighbours. We are a property owning society and although interest rates are comparatively low many people have extremely large mortgages.

This,coupled with the fact that eating out at expensive restaurants is a class driven occupation here and that the eating out classes have to find school fees for Josh and Alice plus money for at least one car and one people carrier on top of the mortgage, means that a lot of disposable income is sucked in on other priorities which come before eating out.

Provincial property prices in France and Italy have been almost static for years and restaurants can pass from generation to generation and more easily survive blips in the market.

[macrosan]

I think the fact is that the provinces attract a certain type of restaurateur - individuals or couples who are immensely talented and driven, and happy to live or die by their cooking alone.

I think Thom had it all sewn up nicely way back in this thread. The other factor unique to this breed of businessperson is that they are not interested in developing a capital asset in their business, and they prioritise their lifestyle before their business model.

The practice of developing a provincial business (which includes restaurants, shops, hotels, craft workshops, and so on) as part of a lifestyle change is surprisingly common. People in city jobs decide they want to live in a particular "idyllic" location, and their means of doing so is to open their own business there. They then happily run their business for a time, then decide to retire, and close their business. In the case of a hotel or shop, they will often sell the business as a going concern. But their primary concern will be to realise the capital value of the property, not the business.

This seems to be the case in most (if not all) of the examples in John W's report. I personally know at least six people to whom this process applies. Of course, some of their businesses were simply financially unsuccessful, and part of the reason for that was that they were driven more by the desire for a lifestyle change than by a valid business model.

Incidentally, I also totally disbelieve the theory that this is a British phenomenon. It almost certainly happens in exactly the same way in every developed country in the world. The fact that SteveP hasn't heard of these types of restaurants closing in France is for exactly the same reason that I haven't .... we both haven't been looking for the evidence

Edited November 28, 2002 by macrosan (log)

[peterpumkino]

I mean why not open another type of small business with regular hours that throws off  the same income?

There you go again. Why not? Because they love food that's why not. They don't want to open an import/export business, they want to cook food. Money isnt everything in life Mr. Polinski.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Macrosan - For those of us who keep track of restaurant closures in France, I can report on none of any real importance. And I think I can say the same about Italy. Of course it might be the case that as a coincidence that in the U.K., many people who left the city for a country life did so at the same time and are reaching retirement age at around the same time. But that isn't what the article purports. It describes a phenomenon of owning a high end restaurant in the country as being exceptionally hard work whereby the owners have chosen to close as a result. My point, is that if the size of their businesses were larger, which would result as a product of having more recognition, they could higher more staff and take it a little easier while keeping their restaurant open. This is what seems to happen in France. Will you not agree that the phenomenon of many people walking away from successful businesses is an unusual one? It just doesn't happen, regardless of profession, regardless of location, unless the economics aren't clicking.

[Simon Majumdar]

Macrosan - For those of us who keep track of restaurant closures in France, I can report on none of any real importance.

What about the Nobu and Korovo bankruptcy being discussed on the other thread?

S

[Tonyfinch]

Steve, in France or Italy they would not have to sell. They could hand the restaurant on to the new generation. This is much harder in the UK because, as Macrosan said, the retirement nest egg resides in the value of the property rather than what the owners have managed to save.

The cost of hiring more staff is also disproportionately higher because those staff will often also have high mortgages and demand high wages in order to meet them. Very few people rent property in the UK compared to Italy and France and it is much harder for sons and daughters to afford to live in the same areas as their parents-they have to move away to buy start up homes thus making it harder for establishments to keep costs down by employing family members.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Tony - Based on my knowldge of UK tax law for UK citizens, why isn't their sale of the restaurant a capital gain of which there is no tax? And if they wanted to hand the restaurant on to an heir, why couldn't they structure a purchase over time and take back paper which got paid off slowly?

[Tonyfinch]

Tony - Based on my knowldge of UK tax law for UK citizens, why isn't their sale of the restaurant a capital gain of which there is no tax? And if they wanted to hand the restaurant on to an heir, why couldn't they structure a purchase over time and take back paper which got paid off slowly?

I don't know enough about it to answer that. Maybe if the restaurant is also their home the capital gains tax laws are different. Maybe they need the capital that the sale brings as a down payment on their retirement home so they can't afford to wait until their heirs pay them back.

Anybody?

[StephenT]

Anybody?

Well we could be guessing all day. The only way to know for sure is to ask them.

[Vanessa]

Apart from the property factor, there is far less of a tradition of family businesses in the UK than in the rest of Europe.

v

[AdamLawrence]

Most likely their heirs aren't interested. How many multi-generational family-owned restaurants are there in this country? I can only think of Le Gavroche and the Waterside - whose owners are French - though I dare say there are some local Italian places that might fit the bill. I think we have to come back to the lack of a really deep-seated restaurant tradition in the UK.

But really, aren't we trying to draw conclusions based on a tiny sample size? Winteringham is for sale because the Schwabs have had enough of 18 hour days. Altnaharrie closed because Gunn Eriksson had a bad accident and didn't want to get back into the grind once she'd recovered. Croque-en-Bouche closed because the Jones' could make a living from their wine merchanting business and didn't want the hassle of running a restaurant any more. There's three examples, all explained by factors peculiar to the owners. I'm not sure the sample is large enough to infer a more general trend.

The other point is that, when most of these privately-owned top class restaurants started up in the regions, their owners probably opened on the cheap. Shaun Hill told us that he moved to Ludlow because he could buy a property that would be his home and restaurant all in one. Property around Winteringham must have been incredibly cheap when the Schwabs opened. And at Altnaharrie you could probably get enough grant aid to pay the first year's bills. Has anyone ever been to Altnaharrie? I haven't but I know the area well - I can't begin to explain just how isolated it is. You are talking about a place that is probably two, three hours from Inverness. Maybe more. So it was cheap to start your restaurant.

It won't be cheap to buy those places now. Property is much more expensive than it was even two years ago. Croque-en-Bouche is up for £550,000. Winteringham, with the hotel, must be well into seven figures. How many talented young chefs wanting to move to the regions could afford that kind of money?

Adam

[AdamLawrence]

Vanessa - I'm not sure that's true, except in the narrow sphere of restaurants (I'd have to hunt out some stats to be totally convinced though). There are loads of family businesses even now. But they have special problems. It's hard to attract good managers to family firms, because candidates know the top job is unattainable. Many family firms were seduced by the allure of the stock market during the 80s and 90s, and once the family no longer control the equity they won't stay in charge for long. And many family-owned firms were established in sectors that have declined in recent years - think textiles, and other manufacturing industries.

Adam

[Vanessa]

Adam - you may well be right, but it is just something I noticed when doing business in Europe in completely non-food-related sectors - that companies are often family-owned where that is rarely the case here these days. I think we have a culture of children wanting to get away from their parents.

v