Help me select a 10" chef's knife....

[paulraphael]

I've been using my other Watanabes for about six years, and I've not noticed any kind of patina that stops onions from browning. I don't mind spending $500 on a knife. But I want to be sure it isn't going to ruin food.

I've had knives made from hitachi blue super (one of the blue steels) ... it is marginally less reactive than white steel, but still forms a patina and still will react with acidic foods when the patina isn't there. I have very limited experience with carbon steel gyutos; you could probably get more specific advice from some of the peopple in the kitchen section at knifeforums.com, or the cutlery section at foodieforums.com ... these are bastions of cutlery lunatics with a lot of pros and a lot of high end knife experience.

On an non-metalurgical note, I want to reiterate that expensive knives offer few advantages for tasks like breaking down poultry. Rather than trying to get a jack-of-all trades knife for both butchering and precise vegetable work, I think it's much more sensible to have a high performance gyuto for the delicate stuff, and something heavier for the heavy stuff.

If you go this route, you can use a german chef's knife or honesuki or some other butchering knife on the fowl, and then get a thin, high performance gyuto for the rest of your prep. There are plenty of stainless knives that offer incredible performance (better in many ways than the Watanabe) ... like the Suisin Inox Honyaki wa gyuto, Ikkanshi tadatsuna inox wa gyuto, Mizuno tanrenjo inox wa gyuto, or at a lower price point the sakai takyuki grand chef. These knives are all stainless, are made out of great alloys that feel almost like carbon steel when cutting and sharpening, and have similarly thin, high performance blade geometries. All are well under $500. But you sacrifice being able to use them for butchering or anything heavy duty. And they'll all require adapting your technique somewhat if you're used to heavier knives.

[DerekW]

What Peterm2 said [and I said in my reply to your PM, but perhaps you did not receive that?]:

You like Watanabe knives, the ones you have are carbon clad and will discolour onions.

You can buy a Watanabe blade with the carbon core with the edge retention &c you like, and a stainless cladding which will not discolour the food. Much less than the $500 figure you mention.

Other than dissatisfaction with Las Vegas cutlers, where's the problem?

[paulraphael]

I haven't used a clad Watanabe knife, so I can't comment on it specifically. But I prefer solid knives to clad ones, because they tend to be more responsive and give better feedback. I've had clad knives that performed well, but I didn't enjoy using them as much. They felt damped, dull. I've been told that not all clad knives feel this way (some have much thinner cladding, or other construction differences) but I've used enough to have a bias. I'd want to talk to someone who's used both clad and unclad watanabes.

[David A. Goldfarb]

My French carbon steel knives generally discolor onions and avocados, but not always, and I haven't figured out under what conditions it's more likely to be a problem. I'm not sure that patina helps. I polished a few blades recently with white rouge and red rouge, and my first impression is that the polished knives are less likely to discolor vegetables that are prone to discoloration than knives with a heavy patina. The knives being sharp and working fast helps, and if I notice a problem, I just switch to a stainless knife. What did they do about this before stainless knives?

[Octaveman]

I've been using my other Watanabes for about six years, and I've not noticed any kind of patina that stops onions from browning. I don't mind spending $500 on a knife. But I want to be sure it isn't going to ruin food.

I use carbon steel and SS clad carbon knives and I've never seen one that didn't discolor food like onions, avocado's, artichokes, garlic, etc. My white steel Watanabe discolors less often as the patina forms but the day I expose a freshly sharpened edge (usually 5mm+ wide) it starts all over again. Oddly not all onions will get discolored. I wonder if this has anything to do with freshness or even simply not paying attention to any kind of correlation between newly sharpened or not-so-sharp edges and discoloration.

I also have a Murray Carter SS clad white steel gyuto and sometimes get the same reaction after sharpening. But once the patina on the edge has been formed the reaction is less likely depending on the food. And honestly, if you have a budget of $500 I would strongly suggest a SS clad Carter over a clad Watanabe. Stainless clad knives will not remove the discoloration as the knifes' core is still carbon. In order to completley remove that factor you'll have to go 100% stainless.

[victornet]

I'm no pro, but my Hattori FH 240mm is really a super all purpose knife (Though I use my 210 Ichimonji TKC almost every day - I like a light knife). But once you start hacking through joints a different knife is called for, if you want the gyuto's edge to last. I whack chickens apart with a much less expensive appx. 175mm Yamawaka Deba I bought from 330mate.com on ebay. In short, I think you could get 2 good knives for under $500.00 and end up with a stronger kit.

[Octaveman]

I've been using my other Watanabes for about six years, and I've not noticed any kind of patina that stops onions from browning. I don't mind spending $500 on a knife. But I want to be sure it isn't going to ruin food.

I forgot to add that Watanabe's carbon is WAY more reactive than most. I had a carbon honyaki that didn't form a patina in three weeks of use. It was weird. I thought they gave me the wrong knife. Blue super takes longer to form a patina than the others. I have used White #1, #2, Blue #2, Blue Super but I can't make any comparison of food reaction as most these knives were used several years ago. The knife forums Paul linked could get you more answers on this.

[ScoopKW]

I just received email back from Shinichi saying, basically, "buy a different knife if you're concerned about oxidation."

So I'm back to buying a pig in a poke. It really sucks that there is no venue in a city with 10,000 restaurants for selecting a purchasing a decent knife. I realize that holding and simulating cutting in a knife shop isn't going to find me the right knife, either. But it will allow me to immediately nix the uncomfortable and wonky knives.

[camdan]

I was in the same situation as you a couple of weeks ago and after doing a lot of studying I ordered a Tojiro DP 270 mm gyuto from Korin. It's a bit of a leap of faith to buy it without handling it first, but there aren't a lot of options here (Toronto). I don't have much to compare it to as it's ten times the price of my previous knife, but I think that it's excellent. To be honest I doubt you'll be able to tell much difference in the performance beyond a couple of hundred $, so I'd just pick the one that looks the best to you, if that's a concern. People do seem to speak very highly of the Blazens and the Misono UX-10s though and If my budget were bigger I think I would have gone with the Misono.

Edited February 24, 2010 by camdan (log)

[ScoopKW]

I found a place in town that sells Mac knives. The MBK110 10 1/2" Gyuto is so far the most comfortable knife I've tried in this quest...

[Octaveman]

I found a place in town that sells Mac knives. The MBK110 10 1/2" Gyuto is so far the most comfortable knife I've tried in this quest...

This is pretty much what you will find with 95% of the gyuto's out there. Check out the following links to online knife shops that are regularly used by knife nuts.

Japanesechefsknife.com

Seito Trading

Tadatsuna

Knife Merchant

Aframes Tokyo

Edited February 24, 2010 by Octaveman (log)

[peterm2]

If you stick to a normal-looking knife (not a Ken Onion or something like that) they should all feel good at the price point you're looking at. The difference will be in the metal used, the edge profile, and the cutting ability which you wouldn't be able to gauge by seeing it at a store anyway. Read some of the reviews and look into the knives already suggested. Any of those would make an excellent chef's knife. But not a knife for breaking down chickens.

[paulraphael]

I used to pay a lot of attention to things like the feel of a handle and the balance of a knife. That comes from the European tradition of using a heavy knife that isn't especially sharp: you really work the handle on a knife like that. You grip it hard; you use a lot of force. And I still love the big honking handle and the neutral balance of my Schaaf chef's knife, which I pull out for heavy lifting like rock chopping woody herbs, pulverizing bulk chocolate, or beheading innocents.

For most prep tasks, though, I use a much lighter and sharper gyuto, and can confidently say that things like the feel of the handle are practically irrelevent. Because you barely grip the knife at all. If European techniques require you to grip a knife like an axe, Japanese techniques require you to manipulate it like a violin bow or a scalpel: fingertips, the lightest possible touch. Any handle that isn't completely idiotic (um ... Mr. Onion, I hope you're not reading) will work fine. You're not even going to notice it.

This is why it's a safe bet to buy knives with good reputations sight unseen. There's no guarantee that you'll like any given knife, but the qualities that make or break it for you will become evident with use and sharpening, not with a brief fondling at the store.

[Blether]

Speaking seriously, I'm interested in your starting criteria - you want something bigger than an 8" chef knife, something with a bit of heft (did you say that ?), for dispatching poultry, something you do a lot. You also do a lot of pull-cutting, but you want a knife that'll be good for onion-chopping, too. Is that right ? You also said that you think 2 knives might be better.

By 'dispatching', do you mean breaking down ?

For me, pull-cutting is just something that needs a completely different edge from what you want for cutting up birds - a narrower edge angle - and for pull cutting you don't want a multi-profile blade (bigger angle on the rear part, for example). You also use the same part of the blade for chopping onions that you use for breaking bones - that rear section.

Can you say a bit more about what you're doing ? I'm guessing you're cooking professionally. Is that right ? Where does the pull-cutting come in ? You said you're making do with your 8" chef's knife for poultry now - what do you do for all that pull-cutting ? What for other prep ? Several people have pointed out that a Japanese gyuto (chef's knife) isn't the thing for breaking up birds - it'll chip on bones, and typically it'll be light for its size.

I find the naming of the gyuto interesting - literally 'cow blade' or 'beef knife'. Did the name arise because they were first produced in Japan for use on meat, or simply because they were western-style, and seen as coming from a meat-eating culture ? Or something else ? I haven't read up on that, but I believe that from the range of Japanese knife styles (as opposed to Japan-made western-style knives), as a dedicated blade for poultry most would choose a 'deba' - heavy, short (comfortable to turn this way and that) and sharpened for strength.

Funnily enough - and it's a proverb rather than practical kitchen advice - there's a Japanese version of the saying "using a sledgehammer to crack a nut", that goes:

牛刀(ぎゅうとう)をもって鶏(にわとり)を割(さ)く

- 'gyuto wo motte niwatori wo saku', or 'using a gyuto to cut up a chicken'.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Blether (log)

[ScoopKW]

Speaking seriously, I'm interested in your starting criteria - you want something bigger than an 8" chef knife, something with a bit of heft (did you say that ?), for dispatching poultry, something you do a lot. You also do a lot of pull-cutting, but you want a knife that'll be good for onion-chopping, too. Is that right ? You also said that you think 2 knives might be better.

Yeah, my posts have been kind of "all over the place" in this thread. Basically, I find myself wanting a little extra leverage over the 165mm Santoku in the left-handed Watanabe set and the 8" Wusthof chef's knife that I have.

Without a doubt, I'm going to buy a better nakiri for breaking down veg. I use my nakiri every day, and it's probably my favorite knife -- other styles are better multitaskers. But I've gotten to that sweet spot with the nakiri where I rarely reach for a food processor because the nakiri is quicker (counting setup and breakdown of the machine) for any quantity smaller than "a sack full." So that knife has got to be non-reactive.

One of the places I want the longer knife is for cutting through chicken wings and necks in stock production. 10"+ knives seem to be a lot better at this than the 8" knives I have. Anything thicker than a wing bone, and I'm reaching for a deba or a cleaver. One of the things I'm learning is that a lot of people spend 90% of their prep time with a 240mm gyuto in their hand. After trying a couple, I can see why.

So the 240 will likely be doing a myriad of tasks -- but not cutting through chicken legs, beef short ribs, or granite slabs. Since 240mm seems to be my length and weight sweet spot, I want something that will be suited for the widest variety of tasks. I'm also a "buy quality and cry once" kind of person. Most of the stuff I own is "own it for a lifetime" type stuff. (Consumer electronics and such excluded, naturally.) So, my budget for this purchase is, "Whatever it takes to get the knife that will do what I want and last at least a lifetime."

Cooking for me isn't a career, or a hobby or whatever. It's a life skill. I like to eat. I've found that I also really like to cook***. I'll amortize this purchase over a lifetime and not really care what the initial outlay is.

That being said, I really don't care if the knife is pretty or prestigious. It's a tool, not a piece of art. If there's a $10 knife that will do what I want, that's the knife for me. If I have to spend megabucks for the knife that will do what I want, then that's the knife for me. I would rather the knife look plain -- less chance of theft than a flashy damascus blade.

*** The only two days of the week I look forward to are the two days I spend at culinary school. After six hours of prepping veg and protein and then cooking it, I find myself wishing I could spend just a few more hours before going home. I would rather be brewing beer, of course. But there aren't a lot of brewing jobs available. (And none where I live. And I can't move for awhile.) I simply don't fit in except in a restaurant. So I'd rather dice onions or concasse tomatoes for 12 hours straight than work at my current "it's a crap job, but at least it's a job" job.

[paulraphael]

I find the naming of the gyuto interesting - literally 'cow blade' or 'beef knife'. Did the name arise because they were first produced in Japan for use on meat, or simply because they were western-style, and seen as coming from a meat-eating culture ? Or something else ? I haven't read up on that, but I believe that from the range of Japanese knife styles (as opposed to Japan-made western-style knives), as a dedicated blade for poultry most would choose a 'deba' - heavy, short (comfortable to turn this way and that) and sharpened for strength.

I've heard some speculation about this, but no clear answers. My hunch is that it's closer to your latter explanation; it's patterned roughly after Western knives and until fairly recently Western cooking was associated heavily with meat in Japan (because the Japanese ate virtually none, and had a strange relationship with the meat they did eat).

But the gyuto is not seen as a specialized meat knife. In fact, traditional Japanese patterns like the yanagi make better meat slicing knives, the western-patterned sujihiki is a better carving knive, and the various patterns like honesukis and garasukis and petties make better butchering knives.

The gyuto can't do precise vegetable prep as well as an usuba in the hands of someone with the associated hard-won skills. But for a general prep knife, especially where Western foods are concerned it outperforms everything else, including heavier European chef's knives, and the Japanese patterns made for amateur use, like the santoku and nakiri.

[ScoopKW]

the Japanese patterns made for amateur use, like the santoku and nakiri.

I've only used the nakiri -- the usuba looks similar, except more rounded near the tip. What's the advantage there, in your opinion?

If I'm good with a nakiri, is there going to be much of a learning curve with the usuba?

[paulraphael]

If I'm good with a nakiri, is there going to be much of a learning curve with the usuba?

Serious learning curve. Probably the hardest to use knife of them all. None of the techniques you're used to with a gyuto or a nakiri will work with an usuba. It's a fat, single-beveled knife, so it requires all the general single-beveled knife skills in order to cut straight. Also it has no belly at all. The edge hits the board square. So you have to train yourself to keep the edge perfectly square all the time. If the tip points down at all, it will catch. The edge of the knife is extremely thin and brittle and requires extremely delicate technique, otherwise the edge will just chip to pieces. I know people who have taught themeselves to use this knife adequately, as a hobby. But the only people I know who are proficient enough for the knife to make practical sense are chefs with Japanese training.

Basically, if you have to ask, you don't want an usuba.

Edited February 26, 2010 by paulraphael (log)

[Blether]

Thanks, that's a lot clearer, ScoopKW.

What you're looking for is a 10" knife to be your main knife, you're not on a budget that makes USD500 a problem, and you like Japanese knives based on your experience with both them and European ones. Have you tried asking any of the online stores if they'll let you try-and-return ? Say, have them deliver three and you return two for a refund ?

Also, have you read Chad Ward's An Edge in The Kitchen and Knife Maintenance and Sharpening ?

Paulraphael,

Hi. There's no question from me that the gyuto is anything other than what we call a "chef's knife" in the West.

In the last week I had a first browse through an online store here, Gourmet Meat Shop. The first retail place in Japan I've seen list caul fat - but intriguingly for the present discussion, it was interesting to see the Japanese enthusiasm for exotic foreign products in the knives they're selling - the ham knives are Arcos (Spanish... well, Iberico pork and ham are such a big brand here); Global honesuki; Afinox (Spanish again) and Wenger (Swiss). They're generally running around 50 bucks.

I find it heart-warming to see the Japanese making such a go of selling high-end kitchen knives in America - the cultural zeitgeist is with them and they're riding it beautifully. Over here, you see the mania for foreign designer goods - little Vuitton purses at USD200-500, for example, and reflect on the difference between cost, value and market pricing.

Not so very long ago, Sheffield steel was the ne plus ultra of the domestic knife world (and others). There's craftsmanship there yet, of a sort - did you see this article on the disappearing art of the hand-made pocket knife ? German and Swiss kitchen knives were the thing in the UK, 20 and 30 years ago - no-one would buy a British knife, least of all the Brits - but in the 80's I found the Robert Welch knives I've linked to already in this thread and posted about before, which are a good quality stainless steel knife at an unfashionable low price. They're still making them, and I'm still happy with my choice.

I don't have the 10" knife, but yesterday I finely shredded the peel & pulp of 6 lemons with the 8" chef's, and only noticed afterwards that in the process I'd taken a small sliver out the face of one of the fingernails on my follow hand (bad technique, of course) - maybe 1/6 of the nail thickness, in an area 1/8" x 1/16". That knife's sharp enough for me - sharpened last in the autumn and regularly steeled. Of course I'm only a regular domestic cook. These knives look and feel to me the way a kitchen knife should - so there's the aesthetic argument, too.

That said, I wouldn't recommend them to ScoopKW, who already prefers his Japanese blades in use: it's well-discussed on eG, that the major general defining difference is the harder steel that holds an edge longer. There again, I wonder at the thought that a gyuto

... outperforms everything else, including heavier European chef's knives

- in a thread where there's much discussion of Japanese knives oxidising and discoloring the food they're used on. Hasn't the West been making western food, and providing knives for it, quite a bit longer than Japan has ? Which doesn't make much difference to what's available today, but there are arguments for stainless over carbon-cored; and there are arguments for a softer steel over a harder one.

[Dakki]

I won't speak for Paulraphael but IMO the big question here is what we talk about when we talk about "performance" - what we look for in a knife under our particular circumstances. A light, thin blade with a fine hard edge of the sort we associate with Japanese-made chef's knives will "outperform" (allow us to make thinner slices, for instance) a traditional Western-style knife in many or most circumstances but I personally wouldn't feel it's the ideal tool for breaking down a chicken or chopping chocolate. (I'm sure some people do it with no problems though).

I think our judgment of how a certain knife "performs" is going to be informed to a great degree by our particular habits and how ingrained they are. If you've been happily using a heavyweight German knife for 30 years and developed your technique to take advantage of the weight, belly and balance, using a gyuto with its thin blade, triangular blade and different balance is just going to feel weird and flimsy, like trying to prep with a straight razor. On the other hand someone used to a gyuto is going to find our heavy German knife unwieldy and dull - the thicker blade and fatter edge will have more resistance cutting through food even if it is razor sharp.

That said I think most people will find a gyuto "outperforms" a traditional chef's most of the time, even if they have some experience with a Western-style knife. This is purely empirical, based on my own experience and on observing (very closely, lol) people who use my own gyutos.

In conclusion, I guess there's no one best-performing knife for everyone?

[paulraphael]

I won't speak for Paulraphael but IMO the big question here is what we talk about when we talk about "performance" - what we look for in a knife under our particular circumstances.

Exactly, and I'm using "performance" in a precise sense. A knife that performs better isn't necessarily the better knife under all circumstances. Just as a formula-1 car isn't necessarily a better car for you than a mini van, even though in terms of pure performance there's no comparison.

Japanese knives (and by this I'm really talking about knives that use Japanese technology, not knives made within their borders or by their citizens; there are now small smiths around the world who for all practical purposes are making Japanese knives) are capable of higher performance than Western knives because of their more sophisticated metalurgy, and the more sophisticated edge geometries that this allows. It's not much more complicated than that.

As with many other high performance tools, there can be tradeoffs. If you want the best possible performance, you can't simply substitute a high end knife and continue cutting the way you always have. You have to learn the techniques that the knife supports (which are also the ones it can withstand).

Edited February 26, 2010 by paulraphael (log)

[paulraphael]

There's no question from me that the gyuto is anything other than what we call a "chef's knife" in the West.

No difference, besides the generally significant differences in blade shape, metallurgy, and edge geometry.

...in a thread where there's much discussion of Japanese knives oxidising and discoloring the food they're used on.

The issue raised was about carbon steel knives discoloring the food. There are carbon and stainless Japanese knives, just as there are carbon and stainless European knives.

Hasn't the West been making western food, and providing knives for it, quite a bit longer than Japan has ? Which doesn't make much difference to what's available today, but there are arguments for stainless over carbon-cored; and there are arguments for a softer steel over a harder one.

Sure. Speaking very generally, softer knives are easier to maintain and are more durable. Harder knives support higher performance edge geometries and hold their edges longer ... in other words, the tradeoff is casualness vs. performance.

I think there's a lot to be said for the European knife approach. I like the idea of a single, jack-of-all trades chef's knife for all my prep ... one that doesn't need any fussing and that can be whacked into shape on a steel. But I've been spoiled by the performance of the gyuotos I've had, just as the OP seems to have been spoiled by his Watanabes. My recommendations have been based on the assumption that he wants something that performs like his Watanabes, without the specific drawbacks he mentioned.

[ScoopKW]

the OP seems to have been spoiled by his Watanabes. My recommendations have been based on the assumption that he wants something that performs like his Watanabes, without the specific drawbacks he mentioned.

And I'd like to thank you for all your thoughtful advice. It's looking like a Tadasuna -- if they'll grind a lefty bevel for me. Everything else is exactly to my specs. It's not stainless, but the KnifeForum people assure me that my onions, avocados and artichokes will not brown.

They're also advising me to skip the nakiri for now. Getting good with the 240mm Gyuto may obviate the need for the nakiri. (We'll see. The nakiri is the only blade I can truthfully say, "I'm good with that knife. Garlic and root vegetables, beware."

[paulraphael]

Cool! The tadatsunas are rockstars.

Any reason you're not considering the stainless one? I've had both the stainless and the white steel ... I kept the stainless one.

Either one is so thin that I don't think the right handed version will bug you. If you just focus your sharpening on the other side, within half a year of pro use it will be a lefty knife.

Another thought is that this knife is so light and nimble, you'll probably be comfortable with a longer size than you think. The 270mm size has a cutting edge that's actually more like 260mm. And it weighs ounces less than my 8" german knife. There is nothing you can do with a nakiri or a short gyuto that you can't do at least as well with a longer gyuto, unless you're forced to use a tiny workspace. It just takes some some addaptation.

Edited February 27, 2010 by paulraphael (log)

[ScoopKW]

Cool! The tadatsunas are rockstars.

Any reason you're not considering the stainless one? I've had both the stainless and the white steel ... I kept the stainless one.

It's just that my experience with stainless isn't at all good. (Wusthof classic.) And my experience with Japanese carbon steel is sublime. If the carbon steel blade is guaranteed by more than one knife nut not to brown an onion, I don't see a down side.

But if you see a down side, I'm all ears.