stable mousse

[Lior]

We are having a discussion on our local forum on whether using tempered chocolate in a mousse will create a more stable one or not. I read the thread of mycryo in mousse or just using cb. It seems thatif using tempered chocolate in a ganache creates a more stable ganache (supposedly) then the same would hold true for a mousse. Unless the freezing of it alters the crystallization of the chocolate. Anyone know anything about this? Just got me curious and as Darienne says: I am always learning learning...!

[Tri2Cook]

I hope not, I don't want to temper the chocolate every time I make a mousse.

Seriously though, I have no idea. Never tried it. Then again, I don't temper chocolate for ganache either.

[chefpeon]

Ditto what Tri said.

I've never heard of, or made, unstable ganache. Besides, how would you temper chocolate for ganache anyway? Sure, melt and temper the chocolate, then add boiling cream and zing, your chocolate is out of temper. So I'd say it's pointless.

For mousse, if I tempered the chocolate, it would be too cool for me to fold it in to the other ingredients fast enough and I'd end up with grainy bits of chocolate.

Tempering would just be pointless for both applications. Besides, just having chocolate in a mousse makes it very stable, whether it's tempered or not.

[pastrygirl]

Ditto what Tri said.

I've never heard of, or made, unstable ganache. Besides, how would you temper chocolate for ganache anyway? Sure, melt and temper the chocolate, then add boiling cream and zing, your chocolate is out of temper. So I'd say it's pointless.

For mousse, if I tempered the chocolate, it would be too cool for me to fold it in to the other ingredients fast enough and I'd end up with grainy bits of chocolate.

Tempering would just be pointless for both applications. Besides, just having chocolate in a mousse makes it very stable, whether it's tempered or not.

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There is more than one way to make a ganache, Greweling's butter ganache for example uses tempered chocolate and soft butter.

I agree with your point about using warmer chocolate for mousses to facilitate folding in the other ingredients.

Edited August 15, 2009 by pastrygirl (log)

[Lior]

In my second course with Wybauw we were taught to use tempered chocolate for a more stable ganache and this is supposed to increase shelf life. You actually do not pour hot cream onto the melted and tempered chocolate, but once the cream has cooled to around 35C, similar to that of the chocolate more or less, you add it and this crystallizes the ganache. I cannot testify to the fact that shelf life is better or that the ganache is better, it is just how I was taught. A scientific side by side is always on my mind but never carried through. Perhaps I really should do this!

As to mousse, tempered chocolate may replace the need for mycryo or cocoa butter or gelatine. I am not an expert at all in mousse making just curious as this question was raised!

[Tri2Cook]

As to mousse, tempered chocolate  may replace the need for mycryo or cocoa butter or gelatine.

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You don't need any of those things for a chocolate mousse unless you're wanting to mold it (and not even then if you wanted to serve it frozen).

[Lior]

and if it is not to be served frozen? The original question was for a mousse cake whereby the mousse was from chocolate and whipped cream. The maker wants to serve it "half frozen" and experiences drooping if served half frozen or if it wasn't gobbled up right away.

[chefpeon]

Greweling's butter ganache for example uses tempered chocolate and soft butter.

Ok, when I think ganache, I just think "cream/chocolate". I forgot about the butter kind. I suppose the chocolate is tempered for the butter kind, so it won't melt the butter down, right?

I don't imagine the tempering would be for stability purposes..........

When you're in a commercial setting and you go through 10 lbs of ganache in a day, if someone told me I had to temper my chocolate first I'd slap 'em in the face.

[Sebastian]

i can confirm that tempering the chocolate has no affect on shelf life of ganache.

[chefpeon]

and if it is not to be served frozen? The original question was for a mousse cake whereby the mousse was from chocolate and whipped cream. The maker wants to serve it "half frozen" and experiences drooping if served half frozen or if it wasn't ohmy.gif gobbled up right away.

As Tri said, you don't NEED gelatine or mycryo for chocolate mousse. The chocolate itself is what makes a chocolate mousse stable. I make chocolate mousse cakes all the time. They are frozen in rings then I de-ring the cake and decorate it. From that point on it's refrigerated. It's very stable and slices like a dream. No drooping.

[gap]

i can confirm that tempering the chocolate has no affect on shelf life of ganache.

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Sebastian - having followed your various posts for a few years, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't say that without some scientific backing. Is there anything available publically on the topic?

Edited August 16, 2009 by gap (log)

[Lior]

okay so I will pass on the info. I assume this person's mousse is just a bad recipe if she experiences drooping. Thanks

Using tempered chocolate is not only for butter in a ganache and as I mentioned, you do not use hot cream so there is no melting of the butter or whatever. Sebastian, could you explain anything about why there is this method? Is there a benefit to making any chocolate ganache with tempered chocolate? HAS anyone tested side by side differences in any way? I have found certain benefits such as slab/truffle ganache setting up very quickly and nicely to be rolled or cut.

Thanks everyone.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Lior (log)

[Tri2Cook]

okay so I will pass on the info. I assume this person's mousse is just a bad recipe if she experiences drooping.

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Not necessarily a bad recipe, just maybe not the right one for what she's trying to do. Some mousses are intentionally very light and delicate (I'll even go so far as to say those that are not very light and delicate are taking liberties with what a mousse is supposed to be... I usually take those liberties in favor of stability for what I do). She could up the amount of chocolate if she's trying to avoid gelatin or other stabilizers. I don't know the recipe she's using but she can add chocolate until it does what she wants it to do. Personally, I just add a bit of gelatin when I want firmer mousses that can be molded and hold their shape after thawing or need them to support some weight. It doesn't take much and is way cheaper than mycryo.

[Lior]

oh! I will pass this info on to her - I am sure she will be pleased! Thanks.

[Kerry Beal]

Re the ganache issue - I've nothing definite on the shelf life but I know that if I start with chocolate that is tempered (or at least in the temperature range for tempered) that my ganaches set up quickly and properly and are ready for use much more quickly than if I start with warm chocolate and warm liquid ingredients.

[schneich]

sorry chefpeon but if you are a real pro you always want to temper your couverture when making ganache. EVERY pro in france i know of does it, and its no big deal cause if you are a pro you always have tempered choc in continous tempering machine anyway.

besides a much faster crystallization, your ganache shows much less fat migration problems (makes your chocolates look really bad) AND improves shelf life by showing a lower aW reading by at least 0.05 points (i had it up to 0.10 lower) i did side by sides when i got my aW measuring device :-)

cheers

t.

[Kerry Beal]

sorry chefpeon but if you are a real pro you always want to temper your couverture when making ganache. EVERY pro in france i know of does it, and its no big deal cause if you are a pro you  always have tempered choc in continous tempering machine anyway.

besides a much faster crystallization, your ganache shows much less fat migration problems (makes your chocolates look really bad) AND improves shelf life by showing a lower aW reading by at least 0.05 points (i had it up to 0.10 lower) i did side by sides when i got my aW measuring device :-)

cheers

t.

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Torsten - you've got an aW measuring device? Colour me green!

Edited August 16, 2009 by Kerry Beal (log)

[chefpeon]

sorry chefpeon but if you are a real pro you always want to temper your couverture when making ganache. EVERY pro in france i know of does it, and its no big deal cause if you are a pro you always have tempered choc in continous tempering machine anyway.

Um, you know you really didn't have to make this a personal attack. I am a real pro, but I don't live in France. No employer of mine has ever furnished me with a continuous (or any, for that matter) tempering machine. Does that make me not a pro? Gee, I'm sorry.

I still don't see the scientific point of tempering chocolate, only to pour hot cream over it, and bring it right out of temper. I've used ganache for 18 years, a LOT of it, and I've never tempered the chocolate or seen the need to.

Don't accuse me of not being a pro because I don't temper my chocolate for ganache. Everyone has their own way of doing things and I don't begrudge them that. If you want to temper your chocolate you go right ahead....if you think it makes a better ganache than not tempering, great.

If you want to debate the scientific and logical points of tempering vs. not tempering, I'm all for it.

Just don't make it personal.

Edited to add: Every place I've worked had me make ganache using chocolate chips, and of course you cannot temper chocolate chips, since they aren't pure chocolate. *GASP* I know, it's so very American.

Edited August 17, 2009 by chefpeon (log)

[HQAntithesis]

I think the idea of the tempering the chocolate is that you don't then add the boiled cream to it. You either heat the cream up from the fridge to 28-34C, or boil it and shock chill it down to that temperature. That way you still have your beta crystals. The alternative is heating the chocolate up and throwing in cold cream which'll cause a 'wild' crystallisation but, if the temperature finishes at 29-32C should melt out the unstable crystals with further mixing.

As far as tempered chocolate in a mousse goes... theoretically speaking, would the only desired effect that tempered chocolate gives be a more stable mousse (doesn't bulge much or at all) that you couldn't otherwise get without changing the flavour (adding more chocolate) or the mouthfeel (adding more cocoa butter).

On the downside, I think you'd have to work REALLY quick to make a mousse with tempered chocolate. It would start to set rapidly as soon as all the elements are combined wouldn't it?

[Tri2Cook]

sorry chefpeon but if you are a real pro you always want to temper your couverture when making ganache. EVERY pro in france i know of does it, and its no big deal cause if you are a pro you  always have tempered choc in continous tempering machine anyway.

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I think there's a chance we may be looking at this from different views. Maybe every professional chocolatier/confectioner you know tempers the chocolate for their ganache, but I'd be willing to bet every pastry chef you know that is only using their ganache for tarts and cakes and things of that nature doesn't. I don't do chocolates as a general rule and have no need for extended non-refrigerated shelf life so why would I want to bother doing extra work that provides no benefit that is relevant to what I do? To suggest someone is not a professional at what they do unless they do it the way you do it with the same equipment you have is silly and completely untrue.

[alanamoana]

sorry chefpeon but if you are a real pro you always want to temper your couverture when making ganache. EVERY pro in france i know of does it, and its no big deal cause if you are a pro you  always have tempered choc in continous tempering machine anyway.

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I think there's a chance we may be looking at this from different views. Maybe every professional chocolatier/confectioner you know tempers the chocolate for their ganache, but I'd be willing to bet every pastry chef you know that is only using their ganache for tarts and cakes and things of that nature doesn't. I don't do chocolates as a general rule and have no need for extended non-refrigerated shelf life so why would I want to bother doing extra work that provides no benefit that is relevant to what I do? To suggest someone is not a professional at what they do unless they do it the way you do it with the same equipment you have is silly and completely untrue.

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ditto what Tri2Cook stated. the original post is really about mousse...we're not talking about ganache for filling bonbons. very different things in my opinion.

[schneich]

chefpeon, really no offense intended ;-) but as with everything new and for the most "better" standards evolve. the same goes for working with chocolate.my posting was solely about a scientific approach, in clearer words:

if you temper the cocoa butter in your ganache you will get a much more homogenous structure which leads to a better binding of free water in your product. a tempered ganache can therefore be stored longer whitout loosing its good texture.

you certainly can precrystallize chocolate which isnt pure. as long as you have a cocoa butter portion it can be precrystallized from which the texture will greatly benefit.

i am not saying that you do anything wrong, if your recipes work for you, fine! iam just saying that its not "state of the art" anymore..

cheers

t.

Edited August 17, 2009 by schneich (log)

[Lior]

Schneich, this is what I learned as well, but could not ever really prove to myself if it really improved shelf life. I am so gladto see that it does. Is an aW device expensive? Where do you get them? Thanks for chipping in with the scientific side!

I also think it is great to discuss issues to the nitty bitty-we all learn from it. I have certainly learned a lot. So Schneich, what is your view on using tempered chocolate in a mousse? I am now confused again as HQAntithesis says it does make for a more stable mousse!

[schneich]

the aW device we have is a rotronic handheld . its about 1.500 euros. moussewise although i havent tried it i could imagine that it simply sets your mousse a bit faster and makes it a bit more stable...

cheers

t.

[HQAntithesis]

Meep! I must've expressed my idea badly:

I don't have any experience with using tempered chocolate with mousses. I don't think they're practical on a large production basis because they'd set faster and I'm not sure how I'd heat my whipped cream to the required temperature without deflating it excessively. I think they would make a slightly firmer mousse, if everything else was done the same.

As to the originating issue with the semi-frozen mousse/chantilly chocolat. I think if the recipe were altered to have at least 35% fat (butterfat + cocoa butter) and the recipe itself was at least 18% cocoa butter, you'd be in the clear. If you can't get a chocolate that has the required percentage, you could just make up the difference with cocoa butter. Also note that it's probably best to freeze the mousse after having it sit in the fridge for at least an hour, unless the mousses were definitely to be eaten semi-freddo (no chance it would sit out at room temperature for longer than required).