The Martini

slkinsey · October 11, 2003

I wouldn't know why you would shake a martini, you'll just water it down.
The only times you should really shake a cocktail is when there's juice.
Tell that to James Bond.
Yeah I've always wondered about that, why Bond always orders his "Shaken, not stirred".
I assume because in the original novels it was more of a satire then a serious story.

You nailed it with the second sentence. He ordered it "shaken not stirred" because it was déclassé.

Squeat Mungry · October 11, 2003

What DrinkBoy said.

DrinkBoy · October 12, 2003

Tell that to James Bond.

What always surprises me about this whole "James Bond" thing, is that:

A) We shouldn't drive like James Bond

B) We shouldn't treat women like James Bond

C) We shouldn't think we can win at gambling like James Bond

D) We shouldn't kill people like James Bond

...so how come we think he should be our model for drinking?

-Robert Hess

www.DrinkBoy.com

trillium · October 13, 2003

Also, the trapped air bubbles will make the drink feel different in the mouth -- more "frothy" -- but this effect will dissipate as the air escapes.
Also if the bartender gets overenthusiastic or showoffy and shakes the drink too hard, there can be little chips of ice in it. I hate that.

How funny. I hate it when the barkeep doesn't shake it long enough or hard enough, little ice chips are how I judge that the drink is likely to be cold enough for my tastes. I hate not cold enough cocktails. Takes all sorts...

regards,

trillium

Meow-Mix · October 14, 2003

Also, the trapped air bubbles will make the drink feel different in the mouth -- more "frothy" -- but this effect will dissipate as the air escapes.
Also if the bartender gets overenthusiastic or showoffy and shakes the drink too hard, there can be little chips of ice in it. I hate that.
How funny. I hate it when the barkeep doesn't shake it long enough or hard enough, little ice chips are how I judge that the drink is likely to be cold enough for my tastes. I hate not cold enough cocktails. Takes all sorts...
regards,
trillium

I must admit to liking the ice chips myself.

beans · October 14, 2003

Go figure one guest, yesterday while I was at work, had his server physically carry and send back his martini to the bartender who originally made it stirred and not shaken, ten minutes after he got and first sipped his drink. He claimed it was undrinkable because it became disgustingly warm! :rolleyes:

I never seem to mind when they are shaken with the bits of ice either because I usually am busy socializing and gabbing someone's ear off at a bar, or just drink them slowly because they are martinis. The one who talks the most drinks the least! :biggrin: And of course they always taste best when I pour them straight from my freezer (no shaking or stirring involved) into my favourite, appropriately pre-chilled, cocktail glass.

KatieLoeb · October 14, 2003

I never seem to mind when they are shaken with the bits of ice either because I usually am busy socializing and gabbing someone's ear off at a bar, or just drink them slowly because they are martinis. The one who talks the most drinks the least! And of course they always taste best when I pour them straight from my freezer (no shaking or stirring involved) into my favourite, appropriately pre-chilled, cocktail glass.

Beans:

Truly, we are twin daughters of different mothers :raz:

herbacidal · October 14, 2003

What's your preference -- shaken or stirred ?
Anyone subscribe to the "stirring is superior because shaking bruises the gin" theory ?

i would say that shaken is just seen as cooler. plus patrons wanna see you working that much harder for their money.

trillium · October 14, 2003

I never seem to mind when they are shaken with the bits of ice either because I usually am busy socializing and gabbing someone's ear off at a bar, or just drink them slowly because they are martinis. The one who talks the most drinks the least! And of course they always taste best when I pour them straight from my freezer (no shaking or stirring involved) into my favourite, appropriately pre-chilled, cocktail glass.

How do you get the proper dilution of the spirits with a little water from the ice when you just pour straight from the freezer? Or don't you?

regards,

trillium

**JAZ** · October 14, 2003

And of course they always taste best when I pour them straight from my freezer (no shaking or stirring involved) into my favourite, appropriately pre-chilled, cocktail glass.
Beans:
Truly, we are twin daughters of different mothers

So are you two talking about straight gin or vodka, or do you mean you premix the gin (or vodka) and vermouth and then store the mixture in the freezer?

beans · October 15, 2003

Premix? My fav gin or vodka straight up and frozen, thank you.

trillium: When it comes to the real deal, what is dillution? :laugh:

KatieLoeb: I couldn't have had a better compliment -- You as my lost twin sister? What a lovely thought.... I'm so incredibly flattered and you are such a dear! :wub: Lucky me!! :smile:

Edited October 15, 2003 by beans (log)

Squeat Mungry · October 15, 2003

I suppose it is time for me to submit my favorite martini recipe, attributed (as I heard it) to Luis Bunuel.

1. The night before, gather the following and place them in the freezer: Gin, vermouth, martini glass.

2. Just before dawn, arise and pour the gin into the glass. Position the bottle of vermouth so that the first rays of the rising sun will penetrate the vermouth bottle and strike the gin in the glass.

3. Garnish with olive if desired. Enjoy.

Cheers,

Squeat

DrinkBoy · October 15, 2003

Pardon me if I take this opportunity to pull up a little soapbox that I keep in my back pocket... :->

Cocktail vs. Martini

It has always bothered me when folks refer to almost anything as a "Martini". There are bartenders who insist that anything served in a "Martini" glass (actually sir, that is called a "Cocktail" glass), is a Martini.

The Martini is "A" cocktail, it is not a category of cocktails. When you see restaurants with multiple drinks listed in their "Martini Menu", what they actually have is a "Cocktail Menu". But since John Q. Public has created this "mystique" around the Martini, they feel that they can make these cocktails more appealing if they fool people into believing that what they are actually having is a Martini.

Cuisine de Cocktail

It also bothers me with these folks that think a properly made Martini is just a glass of ice-cold booze.

A "Cocktail" (of which a Martini is one) is a drink that is made from several different ingredients, carefully balanced, so that the individual flavors blend and compliment one another. The result (when properly done) is something akin to a fine french sauce, a new flavor experience. Vodka, shaken with ice, and poured into a cocktail glass, is -not- a cocktail. In fact it's not even a Mixed Drink (of which the Cocktail is a sub-category). It's just a glass of chilled vodka.

A Martini should include enough vermouth to balance the flavor of the gin. This whole thing about "the dryer the better", and that being "dryer" means adding less and less dry vermouth, is frankly just an excuse to "attempt" to increase the alcohol content of the drink. If you go back through history and locate the folks who claimed this is how they loved their Martini's, they were all alcoholics, or borderline alcoholics. -and- they all occured right after prohibition, which was sort of a "cocktail lobotomy" to the entire nation.

Dry Martini

The term "Dry Martini" originally (ie. pre-prohibition) was used to indicate that you wanted your Martini made with "dry vermouth" instead of "sweet vermouth" (as was the original ingredient). This exact same nominclature is still in use today for the Martini's older brother, the Manhattan. A "Dry Manhattan" is made with dry vermouth, not less sweet vermouth.

It's The Water

Lastly (ok, perhaps not really lastly, but at least lastly of what I'm going to spout off about in this post :-), is the notion that some people have of putting all of the ingredients and tools for making a Martini into the freezer to get them really cold. Their "intent" here is that by making the gin, vermouth, glasses, shaker, etc. as cold as possible, there will be less dilution of the drink by the ice. Again, this falls back into the "increase the alcohol content of the drink"... which really is not the point. If you are wanting a drink with maximum alcohol content, just stick with everclear. The water that dilutes from the melting ice is an -important- part of the cocktail making process. It provides a necessary softening and rounding out of the drink.

-Robert Hess

www.DrinkBoy.com

Busboy · October 15, 2003

A Martini should include enough vermouth to balance the flavor of the gin. This whole thing about "the dryer the better", and that being "dryer" means adding less and less dry vermouth, is frankly just an excuse to "attempt" to increase the alcohol content of the drink. If you go back through history and locate the folks who claimed this is how they loved their Martini's, they were all alcoholics, or borderline alcoholics.

"Alcoholic," eh? You can't say that about me and my friends. As soon as my hands stop shaking I'm going to kick your ass

-and- they all occured right after prohibition, which was sort of a "cocktail lobotomy" to the entire nation.

As a matter of fact, DrinkBoy, many of them occurred the other night at my house.

Edited October 15, 2003 by Busboy (log)

beans · October 15, 2003

This whole thing about "the dryer the better", and that being "dryer" means adding less and less dry vermouth, is frankly just an excuse to "attempt" to increase the alcohol content of the drink. If you go back through history and locate the folks who claimed this is how they loved their Martini's, they were all alcoholics, or borderline alcoholics. -and- they all occured right after prohibition, which was sort of a "cocktail lobotomy" to the entire nation.

Whew!

Respectfully Robert, I never considered a dry martini as an excuse or an attempt to increase the alcohol content. Some days my refrigerated vermouth is mixed in or other days not. Some days that freezer stored vodka or gin go on the rocks too (most often because I hate handling my cocktail glasses -- hand washing or fear of dishwasher breakage).

Besides, I was stating my preference, not cocktail law! :biggrin:

MatthewB · October 15, 2003

Drinkboy caught much of what one might say on this issue.

But let's remind ourselves of Mr. Lucky's advice anyway . . .

The Secrets of a Dry Martini

A Heart-to-Heart on Martinis

beans · October 15, 2003

The level of loathing for vodka is astounding. Who was it blame may be attributed to? Smirnoff back in the 19__'s with their ad campaign promoting the Vodkatini?

Meh. Protest as deemed necessary, but as much as it is worth, the consumer's definition and the commonly accepted practice by much of the food and beverage industry, well....

slkinsey · October 15, 2003

Pardon me if I take this opportunity to pull up a little soapbox that I keep in my back pocket...

What he said... on all counts.

I especially agree in re to the necessary presence of a balancing (i.e., perceptible) amount of vermouth as well as the improvements (especially in mouthfeel, IMO) provided by a moderate amount of dilution from melted ice.

KatieLoeb · October 15, 2003

And of course they always taste best when I pour them straight from my freezer (no shaking or stirring involved) into my favourite, appropriately pre-chilled, cocktail glass.
Beans:
Truly, we are twin daughters of different mothers
So are you two talking about straight gin or vodka, or do you mean you premix the gin (or vodka) and vermouth and then store the mixture in the freezer?

Like Beans, I keep the vodka (sorry folks - the smell of gin makes me retch) in the freezer so it already has that lovely ice cold viscous texture. Pre-chilled glasses are excellent as well. I will lightly rinse the martini glasses in cold water, shake them off vigorously and then turn them upside down in the door of the freezer. They get a real nice chill on them that way, sort of like chilled beer mugs do. :smile:

I still mix the vodka and dry vermouth in a shaker with just a little ice. And yes- it NEEDS the vermouth to be a proper cocktail. If you want a vodka or gin chilled and served up then ask for it. Don't ask for a martini because you've just sucked all the skill and joy out of the bartender's job for them. Any idiot can chill a spirit and dump it into a glass. A true mixologist who makes your drink just as you've ordered it is really a rare find. You're much likelier to get your steak to come out medium rare than you are to find someone that knows how to mix a real cocktail these days. :angry:

Beans - you're a sweetheart. :wub: You can be my long lost twin anyday!

Edit: What DrinkBoy said...we're clearly in agreement!

Edited October 15, 2003 by KatieLoeb (log)

GordonCooks · October 15, 2003

I agree with whatever Dale DeGroff says. :smile:

Squeat Mungry · October 15, 2003

Pardon me if I take this opportunity to pull up a little soapbox that I keep in my back pocket... :->
Cocktail vs. Martini
It has always bothered me when folks refer to almost anything as a "Martini". There are bartenders who insist that anything served in a "Martini" glass (actually sir, that is called a "Cocktail" glass), is a Martini.
The Martini is "A" cocktail, it is not a category of cocktails. When you see restaurants with multiple drinks listed in their "Martini Menu", what they actually have is a "Cocktail Menu". But since John Q. Public has created this "mystique" around the Martini, they feel that they can make these cocktails more appealing if they fool people into believing that what they are actually having is a Martini.
Cuisine de Cocktail
It also bothers me with these folks that think a properly made Martini is just a glass of ice-cold booze.
A "Cocktail" (of which a Martini is one) is a drink that is made from several different ingredients, carefully balanced, so that the individual flavors blend and compliment one another. The result (when properly done) is something akin to a fine french sauce, a new flavor experience. Vodka, shaken with ice, and poured into a cocktail glass, is -not- a cocktail. In fact it's not even a Mixed Drink (of which the Cocktail is a sub-category). It's just a glass of chilled vodka.
A Martini should include enough vermouth to balance the flavor of the gin. This whole thing about "the dryer the better", and that being "dryer" means adding less and less dry vermouth, is frankly just an excuse to "attempt" to increase the alcohol content of the drink. If you go back through history and locate the folks who claimed this is how they loved their Martini's, they were all alcoholics, or borderline alcoholics. -and- they all occured right after prohibition, which was sort of a "cocktail lobotomy" to the entire nation.
Dry Martini
The term "Dry Martini" originally (ie. pre-prohibition) was used to indicate that you wanted your Martini made with "dry vermouth" instead of "sweet vermouth" (as was the original ingredient). This exact same nominclature is still in use today for the Martini's older brother, the Manhattan. A "Dry Manhattan" is made with dry vermouth, not less sweet vermouth.
It's The Water
Lastly (ok, perhaps not really lastly, but at least lastly of what I'm going to spout off about in this post :-), is the notion that some people have of putting all of the ingredients and tools for making a Martini into the freezer to get them really cold. Their "intent" here is that by making the gin, vermouth, glasses, shaker, etc. as cold as possible, there will be less dilution of the drink by the ice. Again, this falls back into the "increase the alcohol content of the drink"... which really is not the point. If you are wanting a drink with maximum alcohol content, just stick with everclear. The water that dilutes from the melting ice is an -important- part of the cocktail making process. It provides a necessary softening and rounding out of the drink.
-Robert Hess
www.DrinkBoy.com

Again, what DrinkBoy said.

I'll point out that Bunuel's (or whoever's) martini is my favorite martini recipe, not my favorite martini. I love it because it is sublime, surreal, and it plays up that (in my opinion as well) misguided quest for the "dryest" martini imaginable. Also, I apologize for "talking down" when I said "martini glass". It is indeed a cocktail glass.

When I'm ordering or mixing, I do prefer to have enough vermouth to work the magic with the gin. What would make me happiest of all would be to be able to walk into a neighborhood bar, a hotel bar, or even a nightclub and order a "perfect martini" and get one served correctly. I have a feeling DrinkBoy could honor this request. Used to be the case in San Francisco at the Persian aub Zam Zam, but those days are long gone.

Maybe I'll make a mission out of this and check out the hotel bars (probably most likely) or Buena Vista or Cliff House. If I find it, I'll report.

For ordering drinks the bartender does know how to make, I have to admit I've jumped on the "dirty" bandwagon once or twice.

trillium · October 15, 2003

The level of loathing for vodka is astounding. Who was it blame may be attributed to? Smirnoff back in the 19__'s with their ad campaign promoting the Vodkatini?
Meh. Protest as deemed necessary, but as much as it is worth, the consumer's definition and the commonly accepted practice by much of the food and beverage industry, well....

If we were to define things by the "commonly accepted practice by much of the food and beverage industry" we'd be in a hell of a lot of trouble awfully quickly...lowest common denominator does not a world-class beverage make, you know? We wouldn't do that with food, we shouldn't do it with cocktails. Bottomline at most places is to make money the fastest way possible...period. And names should mean something precise, otherwise, why do we bother naming them in the first place?

My level of loathing for vodka comes directly from ordering classic cocktails (which may even be advertised at the bar) that historically have gin as a base, and having vodka served to me as a matter of course.

regards,

trillium

Msk · October 15, 2003

When I took a bartender certification course in college, the instructor spent alot of time on martinis. He believed it to be a bread and butter drink for the bartender (which I still agree with)

He specifically cited the James Bond quote, and said never "shake" a martini. However this was in the early 90s when a Martini was a Martini, not any mixed drink in a cocktail glass.

I drink both vodka and gin martinis, and enjoy them both (man do I sound like a lush!) I extremely dislike the aeration that occurs when a martini is shaken, I believe it changes the taste of the fine vodka or gin I am ordering. That change in taste may disappear over time, but the drink usually isn't around long enough for me to realize what that threshold is. :smile:

Msk

P.S. I remember watching Dale Degroff do his famed "Orange Twist Flambe" presentation when I worked at the Rainbow Room. The aromatic left over in the glass was phenominal.

Ol' Dirty Chinaman · October 15, 2003

It's The Water
Lastly (ok, perhaps not really lastly, but at least lastly of what I'm going to spout off about in this post :-), is the notion that some people have of putting all of the ingredients and tools for making a Martini into the freezer to get them really cold. Their "intent" here is that by making the gin, vermouth, glasses, shaker, etc. as cold as possible, there will be less dilution of the drink by the ice. Again, this falls back into the "increase the alcohol content of the drink"... which really is not the point. If you are wanting a drink with maximum alcohol content, just stick with everclear. The water that dilutes from the melting ice is an -important- part of the cocktail making process. It provides a necessary softening and rounding out of the drink.
-Robert Hess
www.DrinkBoy.com

The problem with shaking a martini, and water dilution to round out the drink is inconsistency as ice, and ice chips isn't a measured amount.

Edited October 15, 2003 by Ol' Dirty Chinaman (log)

Meow-Mix · October 15, 2003

What would make me happiest of all would be to be able to walk into a neighborhood bar, a hotel bar, or even a nightclub and order a "perfect martini" and get one served correctly. I have a feeling DrinkBoy could honor this request. Used to be the case in San Francisco at the Persian aub Zam Zam, but those days are long gone.

Isn't there some old bar in SF that was rated to make the best martini in America? I read about it some years ago but can't remember the name. Anyone else know this place?

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