Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.

LaNiña

The Martini

Recommended Posts

I still wana know if he's a saffron-colored son of a doormat.

Not last time I checked, although I've been known to bite at a seltzer lemonade.

And Doc--while bitters in a Martini are a fine thing--particularly orange ones--I cannot help but regard them as a hindrance in its achievement of the Platonic ideal. When I was a youth, on Long Island in the 1970s, the grey-maned, suit-bearing advertising men--commuters to a man--who were the dominant species in my town would have become positively thrombotic at the thought of sullying their "see-throughs" with bitters, and I'm afraid their living influence must trump anything I've read in an old book.


aka David Wondrich

There are, according to recent statistics, 147 female bartenders in the United States. In the United Kingdom the barmaid is a feature of the wayside inn, and is a young woman of intelligence and rare sagacity. --The Syracuse Standard, 1895

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I still wana know if he's a saffron-colored son of a doormat.

Not last time I checked, although I've been known to bite at a seltzer lemonade.

Aha! Thought so. (Though I had a moment's doubt when you didn't pick up on the "nomenclatural tin can on the tail or one's self-respect.") Well then, unless you whine dolefully, I'm going to call you 'Pete."

And Doc--while bitters in a Martini are a fine thing--particularly orange ones--I cannot help but regard them as a hindrance in its achievement of the Platonic ideal. When I was a youth, on Long Island in the 1970s, the grey-maned, suit-bearing advertising men--commuters to a man--who were the dominant species in my town would have become positively thrombotic at the thought of sullying their "see-throughs" with bitters, and I'm afraid their living influence must trump anything I've read in an old book.

So, Pete - what part of the Guyland?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
unless you whine dolefully I'm going to call you 'Pete"

As long as there's a Gin Fizz at the end of that monicker it suits me fine.

what part of the Guyland?

We called it "Port." Others, well.... Ask LibationGoddess; she knows it all too well.

And you?


aka David Wondrich

There are, according to recent statistics, 147 female bartenders in the United States. In the United Kingdom the barmaid is a feature of the wayside inn, and is a young woman of intelligence and rare sagacity. --The Syracuse Standard, 1895

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
unless you whine dolefully I'm going to call you 'Pete"

As long as there's a Gin Fizz at the end of that monicker it suits me fine.

Nope - only a broken leash and the Rocky Mountains. We are, um, talking about the same O. Henry story, aren't we? If not, your reference to seltzer lemonade is some kinda weird scary hoodoo and maybe I better gitouttahere.

what part of the Guyland?

We called it "Port." Others, well.... Ask LibationGoddess; she knows it all too well.

And you?

South Shore - barrier beach. Sail the Pauline on the Great South Bay, passing right under the Moses Causeway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry I haven't been around--far too busy trying to come up with a new Martini for e-gullet . . .  What's that?  You wanted a cocktail?  What's the difference?  :biggrin:

Gary,

Enjoyed your QA. Thanks for that. Particularly the bit about vermouth percentages and Milk and Honey. I went there last weekend expressly to have a look at what they do and I'll be damned if a 2 to gin to vermouth ratio didn't make the gin taste more like gin than it normally does and the vermouth wasn't sickly and, well, that was just an excellent recommendation. Thank you.

On the subj of martinis new and old and their innovation, I came up with something I'm reticent to call a martini but does satisfy some of the requirements. Maybe just one: It's almost all gin. Here goes:

many parts bombay sapphire

tablespoon of yuzu

dash of elderflower syrup


You shouldn't eat grouse and woodcock, venison, a quail and dove pate, abalone and oysters, caviar, calf sweetbreads, kidneys, liver, and ducks all during the same week with several cases of wine. That's a health tip.

Jim Harrison from "Off to the Side"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We are, um, talking about the same O. Henry story, aren't we? If not, your reference to seltzer lemonade is some kinda weird scary hoodoo and maybe I better gitouttahere.

Yeah, it's "Memoirs of a Yellow Dog," but I couldn't remember off the top of my head what actually transpires in that saloon that the "son of a door mat/seltzer lemonade" drags his master into...and a Gin Fizz happened to be high in my thoughts. Sic semper.

"The Moses Causeway"--there's a romantic name from the old days. I was on the North Shore, on the peninsula fka "Cow's Neck." The local high school had to be one of the few places in America where you could find kids mixing gin Martinis and G & Ts without intending to be ironic about it (drinking age was 18, then).


aka David Wondrich

There are, according to recent statistics, 147 female bartenders in the United States. In the United Kingdom the barmaid is a feature of the wayside inn, and is a young woman of intelligence and rare sagacity. --The Syracuse Standard, 1895

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Port Washington huh? I can see the G&Ts there, actually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Port Washington huh?  I can see the G&Ts there, actually.

If not there, then where?

Locust Valley, I suppose, and Greenwich; maybe Pound Ridge, Pelham, Mamaroneck...


aka David Wondrich

There are, according to recent statistics, 147 female bartenders in the United States. In the United Kingdom the barmaid is a feature of the wayside inn, and is a young woman of intelligence and rare sagacity. --The Syracuse Standard, 1895

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On the subj of martinis new and old and their innovation, I came up with something I'm reticent to call a martini but does satisfy some of the requirements. Maybe just one: It's almost all gin. Here goes:

many parts bombay sapphire

tablespoon of yuzu

dash of elderflower syrup

And what, may I ask, is yuzu?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We are, um, talking about the same O. Henry story, aren't we? If not, your reference to seltzer lemonade is some kinda weird scary hoodoo and maybe I better gitouttahere.

Yeah, it's "Memoirs of a Yellow Dog," but I couldn't remember off the top of my head what actually transpires in that saloon that the "son of a door mat/seltzer lemonade" drags his master into...and a Gin Fizz happened to be high in my thoughts. Sic semper.

"Hot scotches he took... For over an hour he kept the Campbells coming."

Huzzah! Not many people know that story, which "'s a shame, doggie, 's a darned shame."

"Him?" said the black-and-tan. "Why, he uses Nature's Own Remedy: he gets spifflicated."

My own dog now being a black-and-tan, I find this particularly apposite. :biggrin:

"The Moses Causeway"--there's a romantic name from the old days. I was on the North Shore, on the peninsula fka "Cow's Neck."

Know it well. The Guyland does not easily forget old names.


Edited by balmagowry (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mmmmmm...Hot Scotches....

And yeah, great story--like so many of his. O. Henry oughta be on the $5 bill. So sez me, anyway.


aka David Wondrich

There are, according to recent statistics, 147 female bartenders in the United States. In the United Kingdom the barmaid is a feature of the wayside inn, and is a young woman of intelligence and rare sagacity. --The Syracuse Standard, 1895

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well, I'm a linguist, i guess my 2 cents may be worth 2 cents in this thread, at least with the language as expanding notion (i'll try to keep it short):

we are really discussing two rather different facets of linguistics:

(1) the standardization of grammar

(2) the semantics of cocktails.

Perscriptivism in Grammar is not a popular idea for linguists (we prefer to describe natural language, not enforce arbitrary acceptability judgements), and thus we find people such as William Safire rather distasteful. For a nice, concise rant from a learned man about these subjects, I suggest Steven Pinker's "Language Instinct," in which there is a chapter entitled 'language mavens' directed at people like Safire.

now, as to the semantics of Cocktail terminology, I will introduce a common, but not uncontriversial concept from semantics: prototype theory. Prototype theory argues that when a person hears a noun 'X', the word triggers some notion of a prototypical 'X'. Both the speaker and the listener will, invariably, have different protypes, but there is a sizable amount of overlapping features between the two conceptions of 'X' to keep it mutually intelligible. Prototype theory borrows heavily on the Wittgensteinian idea that language is a game to which we all know the rules, but play a little differently.

If we adapt this notion to the martini, it is easy to see both sides of this argument: if 'martini' triggers the image of a martini glass, then there is not much of a problem with the appletini, but if 'martini' triggers a memory of taste, or something of the like, seeing a key lime martini with graham cracker crust is infuriating.

I am on the precipice of lanuching into a very, very long rant. I will stop now to save us all...

This'll all blow over as soon as sex in the city is demoted to kitsch.

I hope i didn't offend anyone who is familar with this stuff, but prototype theory is really cool

edit: spelling


Edited by markovitch (log)

"The Internet is just a world passing around notes in a classroom."

---John Stewart

my blog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If we adapt this notion to the martini, it is easy to see both sides of this argument: if 'martini' triggers the image of a martini glass, then there is not much of a problem with the appletini, but if 'martini' triggers a memory of taste, or something of the like, seeing a key lime martini with graham cracker crust is infuriating.

* * * * * *

This'll all blow over as soon as sex in the city is demoted to kitsch.

Cocktail glass!

And why is a fruity apple concoction more acceptable than a substitution in a flavour preference for key lime? What about those "martini" inspired cocktail creations with caramel or chocolate syrup rimmed cocktail glasses? They are lesser and also "infuriating" because of a rim, i.e., graham cracker crust?? Nah. That's creativity and how exciting to see creativity sparked into reviving the new variations upon a popular theme!!

As far as Sex and the City, this trend was around way before those girls graced the HBO screen, and I'm sure will be around much longer than the series lasted, as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On the subj of martinis new and old and their innovation, I came up with something I'm reticent to call a martini but does satisfy some of the requirements.  Maybe just one: It's almost all gin.  Here goes:

many parts bombay sapphire

tablespoon of yuzu

dash of elderflower syrup

And what, may I ask, is yuzu?

A sake-tini of sorts I'm guessing.

I've read about Yuzu before when I was researching sake, but never seen or tasted it.

I'm guessing it may be this. It is flavoured with this citrus.

I look forward to ned's response. :smile:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cocktail glass!

And why is a fruity apple concoction more acceptable than a substitution in a flavour preference for key lime?  What about those "martini" inspired cocktail creations with caramel or chocolate syrup rimmed cocktail glasses?  They are lesser and also "infuriating" because of a rim, i.e., graham cracker crust??  Nah.  That's creativity and how exciting to see creativity sparked into reviving the new variations upon a popular theme!!

sorry, those are just random examples (the only ones i know of) to illustrate my point. I made absolutely no claims to the validity or, as you have intimated, the degrees of validity of these drink variations.

I really have no stock in this argument at all, I thought illustrating how deep these distinctions go in the minds of people would be useful.


Edited by markovitch (log)

"The Internet is just a world passing around notes in a classroom."

---John Stewart

my blog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If we adapt this notion to the martini, it is easy to see both sides of this argument: if 'martini' triggers the image of a martini glass, then there is not much of a problem with the appletini, but if 'martini' triggers a memory of taste, or something of the like, seeing a key lime martini with graham cracker crust is infuriating.

* * * * * *

This'll all blow over as soon as sex in the city is demoted to kitsch.

Cocktail glass!

And why is a fruity apple concoction more acceptable than a substitution in a flavour preference for key lime? What about those "martini" inspired cocktail creations with caramel or chocolate syrup rimmed cocktail glasses? They are lesser and also "infuriating" because of a rim, i.e., graham cracker crust?? Nah. That's creativity and how exciting to see creativity sparked into reviving the new variations upon a popular theme!!

As far as Sex and the City, this trend was around way before those girls graced the HBO screen, and I'm sure will be around much longer than the series lasted, as well.

I think what Markovitch is saying is that, according to prototype theory, where one stands on the the term "martini" being applied to anything but a drink of gin and vermouth will depend on whether the term "martini" triggers a visual memory of a drink served up in a cocktail (or martini) glass, or a taste memory of gin and vermouth. If it's the former, then one probably won't be bothered by any drink at all being called a martini (apple or lime or anything else), so long as it's served up in a cocktail glass; whereas if it's the latter, then one will be bothered by it.

Is that right, Markovitch? I'm not real familiar with prototpye theory, but I took a whole semester on Wittgenstein.

(I love Pinker's book -- I mentioned it up thread, as well.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

jaz- bingo.

the behavior of food and beverage terminology is one of the best testing grounds for any theory of semantics, and prototype theory creates some interesting paradoxes, mostly because of the amount of sensory information that one may associate with a given term (taste, smell, sight... and in which state, even sound, in some contexts). In nearly all languages there are special categories for food terminology.

at this very moment I am writing a paper about 'recipe syntax' in english, which is an isolated, highly marked form of sentence which operates without subjects.


"The Internet is just a world passing around notes in a classroom."

---John Stewart

my blog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See that's what happens when I'm reading and cramming in a post as I'm running out the door (and will undoubtedly be 5 minutes late)!

I think what is catching me of why not simply state it does not work instead of utilising emotionally communicative descriptors as "bothered" (Janet's) or "infuriating" (markovitch)? And something, somehow is reminiscent of a good friend of mine's love of bickering over tangential zetetics.

To me, it is all expending time on splitting hairs. Whether it is based on either the gin classic, the apple pucker schnapps poisoned or creamy mess of a key lime Martini being served up in the same utility cocktail glass, in the ten years I've been around the biz, the consumer rarely differentiates. (standardisation of grammar) Also, often the consumer also rarely cares to understand or differentiate. My function is to cater to that perceived need and market the world of flavour available to them.

Cheers and have a great night!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me, it is all expending time on splitting hairs.

no argument there :laugh:


"The Internet is just a world passing around notes in a classroom."

---John Stewart

my blog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me, it is all expending time on splitting hairs.

tetrapyloctomy embodied.


I always attempt to have the ratio of my intelligence to weight ratio be greater than one. But, I am from the midwest. I am sure you can now understand my life's conundrum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me, it is all expending time on splitting hairs.

no argument there :laugh:

Damn right! That's what I got my degree in. :raz: (Believe me, you don't know the meaning of hair-splitting until you've taken a semester-long seminar on "non-existent objects.")

You're right, beans, that most customers don't care a lick about the semantics, as long as they get a good drink. And as a good bartender, that's obviously what you care about, too.

I have to admit that part of the reason I've been so against the use of "martini" to describe all those other drinks is that I somehow felt that all the drinkers of those other "martinis" were unfairly capitalizing on the Nick-and-Nora-Charles-type cache of drinking a martini, without actually drinking one. Then I realized that this attitude was pretty childish, so I'm sort of over it now. But I still wish there'd be a resurgence of the creative cocktail name. And there probably will be, given enough time.

[Edit to add: And I do have a serious problem with the newly-coined term "gintini" which should be purged from the English language forthwith.]

Markovitch: Gotta admit it's been years since my days in Phil of Language classes, but prototype theory is intriguing, to me at least. Also, having transcribed a couple hundred of my mother's hand-written recipes into Master Cook, I can see where the grammar of recipe writing could be a great research topic.


Edited by JAZ (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...according to prototype theory, where one stands on the the term "martini" being applied to anything but a drink of gin and vermouth will depend on whether the term "martini" triggers a visual memory of a drink served up in a cocktail (or martini) glass, or a taste memory of gin and vermouth. If it's the former, then one probably won't be bothered by any drink at all being called a martini (apple or lime or anything else), so long as it's served up in a cocktail glass; whereas if it's the latter, then one will be bothered by it.

I'm naturally one of those who is bothered by folks who refer to anything served in a cocktail glass as being a "Martini". If I were to pour orange juice into a wine glass, would it now be called orange wine?

-Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Port Washington huh?  I can see the G&Ts there, actually.

If not there, then where?

Locust Valley, I suppose, and Greenwich; maybe Pound Ridge, Pelham, Mamaroneck...

Parts of Huntington have always struck me as very G+T, pastel plaid.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm naturally one of those who is bothered by folks who refer to anything served in a cocktail glass as being a "Martini". If I were to pour orange juice into a wine glass, would it now be called orange wine?

It would if the term "wine" came to supplant the word "juice" in popular parlance.

--Doc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, martini glasses are groovy, and make things look cool, but Kool-Aid in a flute will never be champagne.

The French will certainly see to that - they defend the use of the term "Champagne" quite vigorously (as well they should). Personally.... I don't care. When I did drink I only wanted to know how did the drink taste? Groovy names are a great marketing cheme but it's always about what's in the glass. Perhaps the drink mixing world should borrow from those marketing geniuses in soft drinks and rename the gin, vermouth (and possibly bitters) combination as the "Classic Martini"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...