The five best cocktail destinations in NYC

[slkinsey]

The reality of the situation is that, as interest in cocktails grows, poseur cocktail bars will proliferate. That's bad, but not entirely bad. The reason it's not entirely bad is that one real cocktail bar comes along with every ten poseur cocktail bars. If there are a hundred poseur cocktail bars, that makes for ten real cocktail bars. Not only that, but plenty of drinkers and bartenders graduate from the poseur places to the real places. Percentage-wise not that many, perhaps, but enough so that real cocktailian bartenders can make a living and real cocktail bars can continue to be profitable.

[TVC]

That's true. I know St. John Frizell is opening a place on Red Hook later this year called Fort Defiance. It's also a matter of time that folks like Phil Ward will have their own places too. I know LeNell hopes to have a place too.

The reality of the situation is that, as interest in cocktails grows, poseur cocktail bars will proliferate.  That's bad, but not entirely bad.  The reason it's not entirely bad is that one real cocktail bar comes along with every ten poseur cocktail bars.  If there are a hundred poseur cocktail bars, that makes for ten real cocktail bars.  Not only that, but plenty of drinkers and bartenders graduate from the poseur places to the real places.  Percentage-wise not that many, perhaps, but enough so that real cocktailian bartenders can make a living and real cocktail bars can continue to be profitable.

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[TVC]

Clover Club is serious. I was just a barback there and I'm a BAR graduate! It was a pleasure working in an environment like that, even just on that level. Julie and Giuseppe don't overlook any detail, I can account for that.

I'm going to recount something that happened last night at Clover Club, just in case anyone reading this thread doesn't know how Serious Cocktail Bars work.

I was there with H. du Bois.  We each had ordered our first two drinks from the menu.  As we were drinking each drink, the bartender -- I can't remember his name; he's excellent but not, I think, a city-wide "name" (yet) -- lightly asked us how and why we liked it.

For my third drink, I asked the bartender to make whatever he thought I'd like using a base liquor I noticed they had that I was eager to try (Hayman's Old Tom Gin).  Meanwhile, H. had gone to the lady's room.  (I'm not sure she's going to appreciate my going into this much detail.)  When she returned, she asked the bartender for some drink she'd seen on the menu.  He said that he'd already made her something else he was certain she'd like more.  And at least according to H., it was perfect.

That's the value of a Serious Cocktail Bar.  And that's why there's all this mania about going off-menu.  It's like an omakase at a first-class sushi bar, where the chef makes the meal up as he goes along, based on your reactions to each dish.

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[Nathan]

The reality of the situation is that, as interest in cocktails grows, poseur cocktail bars will proliferate.  That's bad, but not entirely bad.  The reason it's not entirely bad is that one real cocktail bar comes along with every ten poseur cocktail bars.  If there are a hundred poseur cocktail bars, that makes for ten real cocktail bars.  Not only that, but plenty of drinkers and bartenders graduate from the poseur places to the real places.  Percentage-wise not that many, perhaps, but enough so that real cocktailian bartenders can make a living and real cocktail bars can continue to be profitable.

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yup.

but it does make for confusion. if you asked food media types to list the city's five best cocktail bars you'd probably get something like:

Pegu

M&H

Employees Only

Angel's Share

D&C

actually, i guess three out of five isn't so bad.

[slkinsey]

That's the value of a Serious Cocktail Bar.  And that's why there's all this mania about going off-menu.  It's like an omakase at a first-class sushi bar, where the chef makes the meal up as he goes along, based on your reactions to each dish.

I'm going to take a slightly contrarian position and say that I think "going off-menu" is far over-rated, and the "mania" for it smacks just a bit of the poseurism of the internet foodie fetishization of bacon. "Of menu" is the cockailian's "bacon tasting."

Now... I like bacon and going off-menu at a cocktail bar as much as the next guy. But the reality is that the bartender is rarely actually "cooking up something brand new" for you. It's either a drink they already know, or something new they're working on. There are all kinds of tricks a bartender can use to convince a customer that something is being created all'improviso. I remember a conversation with a mixologist who shall remain nameless about the trick that goes something like this: mix the drink without the bitters, then do a straw tasting from the tin, look contemplatively upwards, glance at the bitters, choose one or two (the ones that you already know go in the drink) and dash them in, taste again, nod knowingly, proceed to finish drink. Customer has a "gee wiz" moment where he sees the Master Creating a Work of Cocktail Art for him. Pleasure enhancement ensues. Tips are increased.

I love having guys riff new things for me. Part of that, however, is because I have certain relationships with certain bartenders, and I also have an intellectual curiosity in tasting the as-yet incompletely formed ideas they're working on. But, in all honesty, it is rare that a truly "off-menu" drink (i.e., one that never was "on-menu" or isn't a neglected classic) is on the level of brilliance attained by the cocktails on the menu which were refined through a thousand different tweaks and iterations.

To me, the list is the thing. The riffs are gravy. I just think it often happens to be the case that we go to some places frequently enough that we've burned through everything on the menu and end up going off the menu so often for that reason that we start thinking the sauce is the meat. For me, when I go to a new-to-me place like Clover Club, I want to have everything on the menu that interests me before I start wandering off. With the size and breadth of the menu at D&C, if I didn't have the "let's see what you can pull out of your hat that's new and unusual" playful relationship with Phil of long standing, I'd probably never go off-menu there.

Edited September 8, 2008 by slkinsey (log)

[Nathan]

I don't want to speak for other people but I'm pretty sure that when Sneakeater (and myself) are talking about going "off-menu" we don't mean improvising new drinks on the spot. if anything, many of them are drinks that one has heard of but never seen on a menu. (for example, the other night at PDT I was served a Cameron's Kick)

[Sneakeater]

Nathan is exactly right about that.

I do see (and partly agree with) slkinsey's point, though. Which is why my usual approach is two-drinks-from-menu, one-drink-off.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Sneakeater (log)

[slkinsey]

I guess the point I'm making is that one reads a lot of things that go like this: "I went to such-and-such bar. They had 28 drinks on the menu. They all looked awesome. I had the delicious Such-And-Such Cocktail, then I went off-menu for the next three drinks (implication: because I'm such a cocktailian, and everyone knows that's the real game). Great bar!"

Edited September 8, 2008 by slkinsey (log)

[Sneakeater]

That's funny. I just edited my post above in a way that accords/responds to that post (by adding the final sentence).

[daisy17]

I don't want to speak for other people but I'm pretty sure that when Sneakeater (and myself) are talking about going "off-menu" we don't mean improvising new drinks on the spot.  if anything, many of them are drinks that  one has heard of but never seen on a menu.  (for example, the other night at PDT I was served a Cameron's Kick)

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That's right, or "i'm in the mood for something new with the scarlet ibis." I don't expect that the cocktail is literally being invented right then and there, and that's not why I'm ordering that way. One night at D&Co we did riffs on the Last Word, and it highlighted so much for me. That to me is the joy of going off menu - it's how I learn.

And of course some of us go to bars often enough that we have had every cocktail on the menu.

[slkinsey]

Heh. And, as chance would have it, I was editing in my parenthetical comments at the same time. That, to me, is where the poseurism comes in. It's people who get the idea that "going off-menu" is the end-all/be-all of a cocktail bar, that going off-menu is what the real cocktailians do, so thats how they demonstrate their cocktailian chops.

[Nathan]

I think it's more just fatigue. yes, D&C has an amazingly broad menu. but you do reach a point (at some bars anyway) where you've either had every drink or the remaining drinks are riffs that especially don't interest you (for example, I'm not a fizz guy...) so what happens is that you want something on a theme...and so you specify an ingredient or two and a flavor profile...and you get something perfect in response. it doesn't matter whether it's on the menu or not. it makes you happy.

I mean, I can make a sharp Last Word or Corpse Reviver #2 at home....but I know that variants on those themes are always being played around with behind the bar...it's nice to try some of them.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Nathan (log)

[slkinsey]

Again, I avail myself of off-menu and themed drinks all the time. What I take issue with are the ideas that (1) "off-menu" is the game and not a sideshow; and (2) that this is where the "true cocktailian's" interests lie. Both ideas, to me, represent a certain amount of poseurism along the lines of the internet foodie's fetishization of bacon (there was a time when anyone wanting to be taken seriously as a foodie had to prove his baconophile bona fides).

[weinoo]

Heh.  And, as chance would have it, I was editing in my parenthetical comments at the same time.  That, to me, is where the poseurism comes in.  It's people who get the idea that "going off-menu" is the end-all/be-all of a cocktail bar, that going off-menu is what the real cocktailians do, so thats how they demonstrate their cocktailian chops.

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When I go "off-menu" it tends to be at the start of the evening. But by off-menu, I don't mean something that the tender is making up on the spot, or has been working on; what I'm looking for is that great Negroni made with Beef and Antica or a wonderful Manhattan (calling out my rye) or Martini or Daiquiri- drinks which aren't usually on the menu, but which I don't count as "off-menu" either. They're the classics, and even the 2nd and 3rd tier places mentioned above often have problems with them...

not to confuse Otto with any of the tiered places mentioned above, but one night I went in and ordered an Americano - of course, I got an espresso elongated with water..should have said an alcoholic Americano, I guess.

[Sneakeater]

The other thing about "off-menu" is that what I really mean by it is more Bartender's Choice. But nine times out of ten, given cocktailian conventions and bartenders' vanity, that means I end up with something that isn't on the menu.

[Fat Guy]

Here's a variant of the question, which is more relevant to what I'd actually write in a mainstream magazine or newspaper:

What's the short list of places (5 is a rough guide, but 6 or 7 could be acceptable -- bearing in mind that, in the world of print, the more places one writes about the fewer words can be devoted to each) that you'd send someone to assuming that person is totally unaware of the current cocktail renaissance and has never heard the words "cocktailian" or "mixologist"?

Milk & Honey, for example, might not be on that list. From a journalistic perspective, the whole private number thing makes it hard to list. But it's also -- to me -- an uncomfortably rule-oriented establishment and I'd hate to send someone there only to have that person scolded for ordering a vodka drink (meanwhile, recently at Death & Co. I saw vodka martini orders handled with aplomb) or violating the code of conduct. So while I can readily accept Milk & Honey as top 5, I'm not sure I'd feature it in a general-interest article.

[daisy17]

Milk & Honey, for example, might not be on that list. From a journalistic perspective, the whole private number thing makes it hard to list. But it's also -- to me -- an uncomfortably rule-oriented establishment and I'd hate to send someone there only to have that person scolded for ordering a vodka drink (meanwhile, recently at Death & Co. I saw vodka martini orders handled with aplomb) or violating the code of conduct. So while I can readily accept Milk & Honey as top 5, I'm not sure I'd feature it in a general-interest article.

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I think you should tell them not to order a vodka martini.

[Nathan]

PDT

D&C

Flatiron

Pegu

Tailor for something different.

[Chris Amirault]

Milk & Honey, for example, might not be on that list. From a journalistic perspective, the whole private number thing makes it hard to list. But it's also -- to me -- an uncomfortably rule-oriented establishment and I'd hate to send someone there only to have that person scolded for ordering a vodka drink (meanwhile, recently at Death & Co. I saw vodka martini orders handled with aplomb) or violating the code of conduct. So while I can readily accept Milk & Honey as top 5, I'm not sure I'd feature it in a general-interest article.

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I think you should tell them not to order a vodka martini.

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Well, that would certainly communicate to the person who is "totally unaware of the current cocktail renaissance and has never heard the words "cocktailian" or "mixologist"" that the entire business is rulebound. If that's your goal, I mean.

Edited September 8, 2008 by chrisamirault (log)

[daisy17]

If you're writing this for people who know nothing about cocktails, it's probably helpful to let them know that these places barely even have vodka, and if they're looking for vodka martinis, they're not going to be impressed. When I tell people about cocktail bars, I tell them to go with an open mind and try new things, even ones they think they hate (gin) or only thought old men drank (rye). Putting yourself in the bartender's hands is an essential part of the experience.

[Chris Amirault]

There's a difference between telling people about what these sorts of bars do and don't have and telling them what to order and not to order. Don't get me wrong: I have no vodka in my liquor cabinet. But Steven's query begs the question of hospitality vs in-group clubbiness at top cocktail destinations, particularly for first-time visitors.

[TVC]

I wonder if Clover Club should replace Flatiron on that list as much of the experience and talent have migrated to the former. I also think Julie's vision is being better realized at Clover.

[LPShanet]

Here's a variant of the question, which is more relevant to what I'd actually write in a mainstream magazine or newspaper:

What's the short list of places (5 is a rough guide, but 6 or 7 could be acceptable -- bearing in mind that, in the world of print, the more places one writes about the fewer words can be devoted to each) that you'd send someone to assuming that person is totally unaware of the current cocktail renaissance and has never heard the words "cocktailian" or "mixologist"?

Milk & Honey, for example, might not be on that list. From a journalistic perspective, the whole private number thing makes it hard to list. But it's also -- to me -- an uncomfortably rule-oriented establishment and I'd hate to send someone there only to have that person scolded for ordering a vodka drink (meanwhile, recently at Death & Co. I saw vodka martini orders handled with aplomb) or violating the code of conduct. So while I can readily accept Milk & Honey as top 5, I'm not sure I'd feature it in a general-interest article.

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I'm going to play devil's advocate, and say that even though I agree with most of your points factually, I think you could argue that Milk and Honey is pretty important for someone who is being educated on this "cocktail renaissance" to see. While it's certainly tough for some to get in due to the number thing, and it's also true that they have rules, most of the rules are such that equivalent behavior wouldn't be approved of in any civilized cocktail bar. Examples include "no fighting, no talking about fighting". Or "please exit the bar quietly". If you can't handle these things, you don't belong at a civilized public drinking establishment. Most of M&H's rules are of this type. I can't think of a good cocktail destination that encourages fighting, and most frat boy types aren't going to want a sophisticated cocktail education. On the other hand, Milk & Honey does provide quite an insight into the thinking, tone, and origins of the cocktail revolution going on, and some of the historical references/background. The atmosphere is fun and a bit secretive, which only adds to a first-timer's experience and enjoyment. Everyone remembers their first time there. M&H's style and policies are at least partly responsible for the current craze so I think it's a mistake to omit them from any such list.

[daisy17]

There's a difference between telling people about what these sorts of bars do and don't have and telling them what to order and not to order. Don't get me wrong: I have no vodka in my liquor cabinet. But Steven's query begs the question of hospitality vs in-group clubbiness at top cocktail destinations, particularly for first-time visitors.

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I assure you that I wasn't suggesting that Steven literally write "you cannot order a vodka martini." I would think that in an article such as this he would naturally explore the variety of spirits that are used in cocktails, and explain why these bartenders don't work often with vodka.

[slkinsey]

Milk & Honey, for example, might not be on that list. From a journalistic perspective, the whole private number thing makes it hard to list. But it's also -- to me -- an uncomfortably rule-oriented establishment and I'd hate to send someone there only to have that person scolded for ordering a vodka drink (meanwhile, recently at Death & Co. I saw vodka martini orders handled with aplomb) or violating the code of conduct. So while I can readily accept Milk & Honey as top 5, I'm not sure I'd feature it in a general-interest article.

You can order anything you want at Milk & Honey, and if they can make it, they will serve it to you with respect. Due to the space constraints, they can't make everything (they don't stock Lillet, for example). I would also suggest that the code-of-conduct stuff at Milk & Honey is not particularly burdensome, even for a general-interest place. The problem for you in writing about Milk & Honey for a general interest piece is avoiding the douchebag factor of publishing the number -- and without the number, it loses some general interest. If I were writing the piece, I'd probably write the piece mostly about M&H or Sasha's aesthetic in general, explain the semi-private number bit about M&H, and give contact and location information for Little Branch (which is, more or less, "general admission Milk & Honey").

Getting back to the code-of-conduct issue... One thing I would hope that such an article would point out is that cocktailian bars have an aesthetic and a purpose that is different from most other bars. Expectations as to modes of conduct, etc. are as different in these places compared to most bars as they are in Gramercy Tavern compared to Dinosaur Barbecue. None of these bars is the place to go if you want to pick up chicks or cruise guys, hoot and hollar, show off your nouveau riche broker money, wear shorts and a dirty t-shirt, groove to the music, dance on the bar (or anywhere), pound shots and get drunk, drink beer, see and be seen, snort coke in the bathroom, fight or make out. This is important, because the reality is that 95% of people who go to bars value things other than the culinary quality of the cocktails. And any "general-interest" article about cocktail bars will be read mostly by these people. So, if it were me, at least half the article would be explaining what a cocktailian bar is, and how it is different from a regular bar.