The five best cocktail destinations in NYC

[slkinsey]

Two people I trust immensely in matters of cocktails have suggested Bobo (and Angel's Share gets mentioned all the time even if it doesn't actually deserve the accolades). In all I have a list of 10 (sneaketer's list of seven plus Little Branch, Bobo and Angel's Share) places that reasonable (albeit possibly ill informed) people have suggested could be top 5, so I think it's useful to look for a top 5 out of that universe.

No cocktailian I know has ever mentioned Bobo, which is a restaurant. Just on a cursory review, the cocktail list is not worthy of a top five list for NYC. Neither would Angel's Share be worthy of inclusion on such a list.

My read on the situation is that nearly every person who has made a study of it puts Pegu, PDT and Death on the top 5 list but that there's a real debate as to the other 2 slots (I'm still personally trying to understand Death but hope to get there). Even if we made it a top 10 list, though, there would be people arguing about whether to include Elettaria or whatever.

I think you will find that the vast majority of NYC cocktalians would agree with the list of five I first proposed, and I don't think there would be any debate about leaving any of them off of the "top five" list. If anything, you may find people arguing for making it a "top seven" list -- but I don't think you'll find significant argument that any of the five I proposed should be striken from the list in favor of any other bar. Certainly, there is no leaving off Milk & Honey. And I don't see how one can leave off at least one Julie Reiner bar. The only real contender not on my list is Tailor, which is kind of a special case. So, perhaps one might suggest a "top six" list consisting of:

Pegu Club

Death & Company

PDT

Tailor

Milk & Honey/Little Branch

Clover Club/Flatiron Lounge

The only real debate is whether to choose Milk & Honey over Little Branch or Clover Club over Flatiron Lounge. Both "couples" draw from one pool of bartenders and are overseen by one person (Sasha for M&H and LB, Julie for CC and FL), so while they may feature different drinks it is hard to definitively say that one is "better" or even remarkably "different" in terms of the quality of the cocktails or mixology. My preference is for Milk & Honey over Little Branch because Little Branch is more or less Milk & Honey minus the exclusivity and special attention; and for Clover Club over Flatiron Lounge because it's newer and has a more expansive menu at the present time.

At what Sam calls the next level down, I'd also probably argue for just about any Union Square Hospitality Group bar operation. They tend to be quite serious about their cocktail programs. (Jim Meehan is ex-Gramercy, I believe.)

No, the USHG restaurants and places like that can aspire to the third tier. They have a nice program, but serious cocktailians aren't going to Tabla for cocktails. Even when Jim was a Gramercy, it wasn't considered a destination cocktail spot so much as a place where you knew you could get some great cocktails along with your meal -- nothing like he has going at PDT.

[Sneakeater]

I think that's what I was trying to say above.

When you could do a list of six -- or eight, if you want to unpack slkinsey's doublings -- that pretty much exhausts what most knowledgeable sources would consider to be the field, it seems not only churlish, but somewhat misleading, to have a "Top 5."

[Sneakeater]

Also -- to sort of repeat what Daisy said above -- some of these restaurants, like Bobo and Ellataria (sp?) -- have serious guys making up their cocktails, and have a few serious people on their bartending staff. But they're not like D&C or PDT, where you can walk in anytime and assume you won't have to worry who's on board to get an excellent cocktail (even if, as I said above, the particular staffing can matter enormously in terms of going off-menu). The restaurants' staffing is too thin: they have one or two excellent bartenders and the rest are hacks. You can't list them as "top cocktail destinations" because it matters too much that you go to them when the right people are at work.

[Fat Guy]

But they're not like D&C or PDT, where you can walk in anytime and assume you won't have to worry who's on board to get an excellent cocktail

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Would you make the same claim about every place on your short list?

[Sneakeater]

With the possible exceptions of Clover Club and Flat Iron,* yes.**

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* I hate to say anything bad about Julie, whom I adore, but I don't find she's as much of a maniac about staffing as the others.

** I haven't had the bad times at Pegu that others claim to have had.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

But even saying that, look at the odds. To me, at the places I listed, it's an anamoly if you get a bad bartender. It happens, but it's not the norm.

Whereas at the restaurants Bobo and Ellataria, it's more like you're lucky -- or savvy -- if you get the good ones.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Sneakeater (log)

[kathryn]

I love Pegu a lot but the menu seems a bit stale and not as balanced (use of ginger beer and mint)[.]

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What do you mean?

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The list isn't that long. Maybe 15+ cocktails, and I'm guessing that 4-5 drinks have mint in them. I happen to like mint a whole lot but I recognize that not everyone does.

Compare the menu now with back in 2005:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...dpost&p=1001104

A lot of those drinks are still on the menu, whereas the newer places (Tailor, PDT, etc.) revamp their menus on a more regular basis. The last PDT changeover jettisoned all but one or two drinks, IIRC, which is more interesting to me.

Anyway, I agree with Sneakeater. As usual. On most things.

[Sneakeater]

I don't mean inconsistency of quality, Daisy.  I mean of style.

To be sure, each of these places has a house style that's somewhat distinct.

But since we all go off menu, the style of each particular bartender becomes important.  And there are bartenders whose styles are more to to my taste than others -- even though they're all superbly skilled.

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Just to amplify this, what I meant was:

You go to Jean Georges, it isn't really that important whether JGV himself is in the kitchen or not. You can rely on the fact that you'll have supracompetent people executing his menu.

You go to D&C, and it makes a big difference who's there. Not in terms of skills. If you stay on-menu, you can assume that the drinks will be nearly perfectly executed.

But if -- as is sort of, to me, the whole point of Serious Cocktail Bars -- you go off-menu, it matters enormously who's serving you. Because it matters enormously whether their style accords with your taste.

At Serious Cocktail Bars, it's like you're always having the chef "cook for you."

[daisy17]

With the possible exceptions of Clover Club and Flat Iron,* yes.**

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* I hate to say anything bad about Julie, whom I adore, but I don't find she's as much of a maniac about staffing as the others.

** I haven't had the bad times at Pegu that others claim to have had.

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I wouldn't say I've had "bad" times at Pegu, but I have found that it can be hard to go off menu depending on who the bartender is, which I think only illustrates lack of experience, not potential. It may also be unfair to compare today's Pegu to the dream team Audrey trained and opened with, most of whom are now at the other places we're talking about - PDT, Death & Co., and Sasha's bars. That was my first exposure to cocktails, and it was a pretty incredible group of bartenders.

[Sneakeater]

I wonder if we'll ever see anything like the early days of Pegu Club again.

[daisy17]

I wonder if we'll ever see anything like the early days of Pegu Club again.

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I'm shaking my head at this (and kind of wondering why we're not having this discussion over rum old fashioneds) - it was just a mind-blowing amount of talent under one roof. So many top NY bartenders (now) were there (then).

Edited September 7, 2008 by daisy17 (log)

[Sneakeater]

I wouldn't say I've had "bad" times at Pegu, but I have found that it can be hard to go off menu depending on who the bartender is, which I think only illustrates lack of experience, not potential.  It may also be unfair to compare today's Pegu to the dream team Audrey trained and opened with, most of whom are now at the other places we're talking about - PDT, Death & Co., and Sasha's bars.  That was my first exposure to cocktails, and it was a pretty incredible group of bartenders.

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Actually, as usual, in the end I agree with Daisy.

Even at the Flat Iron and Clover Club, which I referred to above as variable, I've never had a problem with ordering from the menu. It's only in going off-menu that I've had problems (as others have had at Pegu).

Unlike in the restaurants (like Bobo and Ellataria), I've never had an on-menu drink at any of the places on my list that wasn't excellent.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

(and kind of wondering why we're not having this discussion over rum old fashioneds)

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Because it's STORMING out is why.

[daisy17]

A lot of those drinks are still on the menu, whereas the newer places (Tailor, PDT, etc.) revamp their menus on a more regular basis. The last PDT changeover jettisoned all but one or two drinks, IIRC, which is more interesting to me.

Anyway, I agree with Sneakeater. As usual. On most things.

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Good point. (Luckily one of them is the Benton's, my fave.) Similarly, the new D&Co menu has over 60 cocktails, and only a few of them are from the previous one.

[DutchMuse]

For me, Pegu sets the standard for quality of traditional cocktails. I also love PDT and Milk and Honey.

I'll add a wild card to the mix. My double down says Bemelman's Bar will come back into the public consciousness as the grandfather of them all, and will be popular in a retro sort of way.

Edited September 7, 2008 by DutchMuse (log)

[Sneakeater]

Bemelman's was a hoot in the old days, before we knew about Quality Cocktails. My wife and I used to go there all the time, just to watch the old guys with their dates. (Little did I realize that my wife would die -- on the day Pegu Club opened, if you want to talk about strange coincidences; I went there opening night to drown my sorrows -- and that I'd turn into one of those old guys with inappropriately young dates whom my wife and I used to laugh at.)

And it was GREAT under Audrey. (It was there I first had her fabulous Earl Grey MarTEAni, among many others.)

But are you saying it's equally great under the new guy from Per Se? I haven't been -- but I also haven't heard that.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Sneakeater (log)

[weinoo]

The new White Star on "lower" Essex St. (that is, below Grand St.) is definitely serious about its drinks. They won't be shaking any cocktails, there's no citrus, but anything else that can be built in a glass (e.g. an old fashioned, a negroni) is fair game, and it appears for now, at least, to be staffed by experts.

I tend to agree with Sam's list of a top 5, or was it 7, or 8?

One of the great things about the list toppers is that once you're inside, you can expect to have a nice experience - a seat, not too noisy, excellent drinks, etc.

And the food programs, certainly at Death & Co. and Pegu have taken a quantum leap forward. We already know how great the food program is at PDT.

[weinoo]

And if we really want to start an argument, how about the five best bartenders in New York City?

[Chris Amirault]

The new White Star on "lower" Essex St. (that is, below Grand St.) is definitely serious about its drinks.  They won't be shaking any cocktails, there's no citrus, but anything else that can be built in a glass (e.g. an old fashioned, a negroni) is fair game, and it appears for now, at least, to be staffed by experts.

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Why no shaking or citrus?

[slkinsey]

But they're not like D&C or PDT, where you can walk in anytime and assume you won't have to worry who's on board to get an excellent cocktail

Would you make the same claim about every place on your short list?

With the possible exceptions of Clover Club and Flat Iron,* yes.**

__________________________________________

* I hate to say anything bad about Julie, whom I adore, but I don't find she's as much of a maniac about staffing as the others.

** I haven't had the bad times at Pegu that others claim to have had.

All cocktail bars eventually go through a lull as talent matures to the point where it moves on and new talent has to be developed. This hit both Flatiron Lounge when a lot of talent moved to Pegu, and it hit Pegu when a lot of their talent moved on to D&C and a few other places. The problem, more or less, was that there simply wasn't enough talent on that level in the city to go around. New talent had to be made. It hasn't happened to places like D&C or PDT yet, but don't think it won't. Eventually, for example, Brian and Joaquin (and maybe even Phil) are going to move on to their own places.

By now, both Pegu and Flatiron have bounced back very well and have a good mix of experienced bartenders and young up-and comers. Clover Club, for example, has Giuseppe Gonzalez, Pegu Club has Kenta Goto, and the last time I was at Flatiron Lounge, Damon Dyer was behind the bar.

[slkinsey]

I love Pegu a lot but the menu seems a bit stale and not as balanced (use of ginger beer and mint)[.]

What do you mean?

The list isn't that long. Maybe 15+ cocktails, and I'm guessing that 4-5 drinks have mint in them. I happen to like mint a whole lot but I recognize that not everyone does.

Compare the menu now with back in 2005:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...dpost&p=1001104

A lot of those drinks are still on the menu, whereas the newer places (Tailor, PDT, etc.) revamp their menus on a more regular basis. The last PDT changeover jettisoned all but one or two drinks, IIRC, which is more interesting to me.

Anyway, I agree with Sneakeater. As usual. On most things.

Part of the reason for this is because a lot of those cocktails are signature Audrey Saunders drinks that have, by now, entered into the canon of "modern classics." I speak of things like the Gin Gin Mule, Tantris Sidecar, etc. With all due respect to my talented bartender friends at PTD, etc. -- and I don't think they would disagree with me on this point -- this is something they simply haven't done as yet. Audrey is someone who is in the running for "most important mixologist of her generation." When customers go to Pegu Club, they expect to be see Audrey's famous classics on the menu. It's also a lot easier to completely tear down and rebuild a menu several times a year when you've got two to three bartenders serving a capacity of 35 than it is when the capacity is 150.

That said, I do think the Pegu menu is due for some expansion and, now that Audrey and Philip Kirschen-Clark have revamped Pegu's food offerings into what the NY Times called "the most elaborate and successful in the city" I think she may look into revamping the cocktails menu.

I wonder if we'll ever see anything like the early days of Pegu Club again.

It's doubtful. Just about every top mixologist in NYC worked at Pegu during the early days.

And if we really want to start an argument, how about the five best bartenders in New York City?

That's a difficult evaluation to make. There is a distinction to be made between "bartender" and "mixologist." There are some excellent mixologists that are so-so bartenders, and many of the city's most acclaimed and influential mixologists rarely if ever tend bar anymore.

The new White Star on "lower" Essex St. (that is, below Grand St.) is definitely serious about its drinks.  They won't be shaking any cocktails, there's no citrus, but anything else that can be built in a glass (e.g. an old fashioned, a negroni) is fair game, and it appears for now, at least, to be staffed by experts.

They're really focused more on "sipping spirits" and absinthe than cocktails, per se, aren't they?

Edited September 7, 2008 by slkinsey (log)

[DutchMuse]

Bemelman's was a hoot in the old days, before we knew about Quality Cocktails.  My wife and I used to go there all the time, just to watch the old guys with their dates.  (Little did I realize that my wife would die -- on the day Pegu Club opened, if you want to talk about strange coincidences; I went there opening night to drown my sorrows -- and that I'd turn into one of those old guys with inappropriately young dates whom my wife and I used to laugh at.)

And it was GREAT under Audrey.  (It was there I first had her fabulous Earl Grey MarTEAni, among many others.)

But are you saying it's equally great under the new guy from Per Se?  I haven't been -- but I also haven't heard that.

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I haven't been to Bemelman's in about 6 months but it was firing on all cylinders then.

Who is the guy from PS who is there?

Edited September 7, 2008 by DutchMuse (log)

[weinoo]

The new White Star on "lower" Essex St. (that is, below Grand St.) is definitely serious about its drinks.  They won't be shaking any cocktails, there's no citrus, but anything else that can be built in a glass (e.g. an old fashioned, a negroni) is fair game, and it appears for now, at least, to be staffed by experts.

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Why no shaking or citrus?

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That's their philosophy...from NY Mag:

...something of a departure for Petraske: no table service, no shakers, no juice (you’ll still be able to procure a gin-and-tonic or scotch-and-soda, not to mention the Hemingway-inspired Champagne-and-absinthe cocktail called Death in the Afternoon). Instead, he hopes to revive two Continental rituals: the aperitif and traditional absinthe service, occasionally using a set of the single-serve see-saw absinthe fountains called auto verseurs.

They also have (at least when we were there this past week) no menus, no blackboard, nothing which lets the customer know what's going on until the bartender/mixologist/cocktailian/whatever lets you know.

[slkinsey]

Bemelman's was a hoot in the old days, before we knew about Quality Cocktails.  . . . But are you saying it's equally great under the new guy from Per Se?  I haven't been -- but I also haven't heard that.

Bemelmans Bar (no apostrophe), even back in Audrey's day, was never a place where you could go "off menu" with the Union bartenders. They knew how to make Martinis and Vodka Tonics and that sort of thing, and they were trained to make Audrey's specialty drinks (some of which may have been batched for them), and that's it. I remember one of the first times I went there, I asked a bartender for an Aviation, and he politely but firmly replied that he'd be happy to make me anything on the menu.

What made Bemelmans so much fun for me was that I made friends with Audrey there, and when we would visit the bar, Audrey would hang out with us at a table and also go back to make all the drinks for us. Sometimes she'd make up some new drinks based on the conversations we were having at the table. One that I still have in my book is the "Eric Malson Manhattan" that she made for Eric, who is especially fond of Booker's bourbon (2 1/2 Booker's, 3/4 sweet vermouth, 1/2 Punt e Mes, 1 dash Angostura). This sort of thing was possible because her responsibilities at Bemelmans were nowhere near what they are at Pegu today, and it's the one thing I really miss about the "old Bemelmans days."

Anyway... I would assume that Bemelmans Bar works more or less the same way today, with the Union Bartenders making the usual hotel bar-type stuff, plus whatever specialty cocktails Brian Van Flandern has put on the menu. If the specialty cocktails are any good, it should be similar to the way the experience was in Audrey's day for people who didn't get Audrey herself. I don't know anything about his work, but haven't been too terribly excited about the Per Se cocktails I've tried -- although I don't know if those are his or not. From the looks of things he does a lot of consulting.

Edited September 7, 2008 by slkinsey (log)

[Sneakeater]

I can beat you on Audrey. I first got to know her as this young girl assisting Dale at Blackbird in Midtown.

I remember when my friends and I used to be disappointed when we got that girl at the bar instead of Dale. That didn't last long.