The future generation of French stars...

[John Talbott]

A recent thread started by eatmywords asked for our suggestions on places between those for folks

on tight budgets and 2-3 star establishments....off-the-beaten-path experiences from 50-125 Euro per person, per meal (wine not necessarily included). Any 1 stars or equivalent in this range?.... adventurous eaters (offal included).....super unique experiences....

As many of you may know, the Food Media and News Forum has a thread running on places in NY that got, deserve or don't deserve their Michelin ratings, as does the NY Forum. I'm curious to know what places members think merit a star in Paris.

Don't just pick the easy ones for this year, eg Senderens, Dominique Bouchet, Relais St-Germain - stretch............

[Laidback]

John, arguments could be made for "Thierry Burlot/Quinze" in the 15th and "Thiou in the 7th

[Eatmywords]

Thank you for starting this thread John. I have a slight different take on Michelin's worthiness now that I've seen the list of 3/2/1 stars in NYC. I feel they've missed many of the greats and listed a few pulled out of a hat.

I look forward to the responses and will try to get in one or more and report back.

I would also add the question of what International cuisines (if any) really shine in Paris? Any particulars?

thx

Eat!

[John Talbott]

John, arguments could be made for "Thierry Burlot/Quinze" in the 15th and "Thiou in the 7th

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Agreed on TB; new menu, prices, stunning.

[roosterchef21]

Hey everyone! Considering most people on here are fairly avid diners and have an obvious interest in food (if you don't then you took a really bad turn when searching for the latest football results on google!), what/who do you think are the next generation of stars in France? I don't just mean two stars waiting to become three stars, I also mean the local restaurant waiting for their first star or the new bakery/patisserie who are producing some really good stuff etc etc.

I'm sure there are similar threads to this one but I haven't managed to find one!

[Laidback]

I would not be surprised to see Bertrand Grebaut get a star. Daniel Rose may also be considered. Who do our resident gurus, i. e., John Talbott, Souphie, fresh_a, Petit Pois, et al, consider future star candidates?

[julot-les-pinceaux]

I wish I could tell you that there is a restaurant which I consider to be the future -- but so far, all future stars candidates (and most recently appointed ones) have rather disapointed me.

In Paris, there's one restaurant whose evolution I'd like to follow, if there's one: la Grande Cascade, because chef Robert is a great perfectionist and so when and if he starts being more inspired/find his own style, this place could move from excellent to wonderful. I also think that l'Acajou has great potential but I am not sure how he can fulfil it.

Also I must say that in my experience, wonderful places tend to disappear, not appear. But frankly I would not mention Piège, Rose, Ledeuil, Anton...(Oops, just did)

One place that connoisseurs unanimously rave about is le Mirazur in Menton. There are also exciting reports from SaQuaNa in Honfleur. Haven't been to either (though I'm planning to go to the later later this month).

[Ptipois]

I would vouch for Mauro Colagreco at Mirazur for instance.

I'm not sure about Daniel Rose, not that I think he wouldn't deserve it but if he did it would mean the Michelin has undergone some sort of cultural revolution.

I'd also mention Petter Nilsson at La Gazzetta but I don't think he "eats that sort of bread", as the French saying goes.

Philippe Delacourcelle at Le Pré Verre (if we don't lose him to the Japanese, which is unfortunately what I fear), but he won't get one, again not for quality reasons but because he made it clear that he would not be playing the power game.

Inaki Aizpitarte, why not? Though he is not always up to his own standards he sure has potential.

Just a few that cross my mind right now.

Edited July 2, 2008 by Ptipois (log)

[Laidback]

Thanks Julot les P. and Ptitpois for your input; I can visualise Dr. Talbott studiously stroking his Freudian beard and waiting on others to make the plunge before he renders his carefully considered opinion...I can wait.

[daemon]

I'd second Laidback on Bertrand Grebaut, even if desserts are one step under the rest of the carte, this guy used to be a graphic designer until he was 21, and he is ....26 ! so to me, he has a wide improvment margin.

+1 for P. Nilsson as well

[Felice]

I am glad that Roosterchef asked this question because I have wondered the same thing and am always envious of those like John and Laidback who have had the chance to eat in some of the now famous places before their prices soared to star level. I was lucky enough to eat at Astrance before it got its first star but the prices had already gone up.

I wouldn't be surprised about Bertrand Grebaut and Inaki Aizpitarte as well. What about Camdeborde?

[John Talbott]

Thanks Julot les P. and Ptitpois for your input; I can visualise Dr. Talbott studiously stroking his Freudian beard and waiting on others to make the plunge before he renders his carefully considered opinion...I can wait.

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It's true, I was waiting, lurking behind my Freudian beard and my Laconian adversion, to see what others would say.

So I will respond.

I don't get Michelin's drift. I don't see how flowers, flash, expensive drapes and decor can propel one into staritude. I ate at l'Arpege and Loiseau before and after their reach for the stars and find it amazing, for instance, that Passard is now getting $200 for a lunch prix fixe.

I also find it astonishing that Passard's pretentious clone Bertrand Grebaut, Helene Darroze and Yohann Parran are lauded, while workers in the vineyard like Eric Jolibois, William Ledeuil and Rodolphe Paquin are treated as sub-dreck.

But I'm in the minority and I realize it.

So I will soldier on, enjoying the guys who put out the food, day after day without the flowers and drapes.

And for July 4th, I will be at Spring and even though he will never get a star, (for reasons intimated at/to by Pti), Daniel Rose gets my gold star.

[julot-les-pinceaux]

Not sure how Freudian your beard is, but I beg to differ with your statement. Not that flower and drapes matter (they don't to me), but that exceptional food require special attention. The reason Passard is so expensive is because he serves you vegetables that never knew the fridge and came, literaly, by TGV. The result is incomparable, and so is the price. His is not a particularly luxuous restaurant (which make the prices even more shocking).

To me, Rose is a good chef but he does not create the exception -- no wow, no emotion, just very good food. To be honest, it does not really pass the test you mention somewhere else (the "I can't do better at home" one). In general, while I love a restaurant that is simple and unceremonious, I don't think that exception can come cheap. I find Ledeuil talented but plates do not get the attention they deserve and average ingredients can't create exceptional food.

But again, it's not like I have a better idea about tomorrow's stars. Chefs I admire tend to get out of business.

[Bu Pun Su]

Did any of you already know that Passard is gonna be that good when he's still under Senderens or when Barbot is still under Passard? Using similar "analogy", who is the current "no 2 or no 3" chefs in the 2-3 star places having the best potential to gain Michelin highest accolade on their own in the future?

[Ptipois]

I wouldn't be surprised about Bertrand Grebaut and Inaki Aizpitarte as well.  What about Camdeborde?

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For Camdeborde it's too late I think. He is far past the period of his life when the "star race" could have taken place, as a matter of fact it did take place but he kept out of it.

Anyway no Michelin in their right mind would think of giving him a star for whatever he is doing now. If he wants a star (and I am not sure he does), he should consider a slight (<-- euphemism) change of policy.

Edited July 4, 2008 by Ptipois (log)

[julot-les-pinceaux]

Did any of you already know that Passard is gonna be that good when he's still under Senderens or when Barbot is still under Passard? Using similar "analogy", who is the current "no 2 or no 3" chefs in the 2-3 star places having the best potential to gain Michelin highest accolade on their own in the future?

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We were not insiders enough to know that someone in the kitchen would eventually be a great chef. But both Passard and Barbot were noticed very quickly when they started their own restaurant. Barbot was all the talk in town a few weeks after he opened. So was Senderens, back in the days when he opened l'Archestrate. Passard was the youngest chef to get two stars at the time, in that hotel where he was before he opened l'Arpège.

[roosterchef21]

  I am glad that Roosterchef asked this question because I have wondered the same thing and am always envious of those like John and Laidback who have had the chance to eat in some of the now famous places before their prices soared to star level. I was lucky enough to eat at Astrance before it got its first star but the prices had already gone up.

I wouldn't be surprised about Bertrand Grebaut and Inaki Aizpitarte as well. What about Camdeborde?

Thanks! I know I'd much rather go to bakeries, cafe's restaurants etc that are really pushing boundaries than go to an old dinosaur.

[fortedei]

Did any of you already know that Passard is gonna be that good when he's still under Senderens or when Barbot is still under Passard? Using similar "analogy", who is the current "no 2 or no 3" chefs in the 2-3 star places having the best potential to gain Michelin highest accolade on their own in the future?

←

We were not insiders enough to know that someone in the kitchen would eventually be a great chef. But both Passard and Barbot were noticed very quickly when they started their own restaurant. Barbot was all the talk in town a few weeks after he opened. So was Senderens, back in the days when he opened l'Archestrate. Passard was the youngest chef to get two stars at the time, in that hotel where he was before he opened l'Arpège.

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I don't think Passard was the youngest two star. I think that honor goes to Gerard Pangaud, who got his second star at age 29.

[robyn]

We were not insiders enough to know that someone in the kitchen would eventually be a great chef. But both Passard and Barbot were noticed very quickly when they started their own restaurant. Barbot was all the talk in town a few weeks after he opened. So was Senderens, back in the days when he opened l'Archestrate. Passard was the youngest chef to get two stars at the time, in that hotel where he was before he opened l'Arpège.

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I think that is and has always been true - everywhere - that there are certain chefs who get a lot of buzz right away (that was true - like you mention - with Senderens - also with Robuchon). Sometimes the buzz is deserved IMO - sometimes it isn't (at least in terms of those places where I've dined). And sometimes the chef still gets a lot of positive buzz long after he or she has ceased to deserve it.

As for decor - I think it's an important part of fine dining. For me at least - decor doesn't have to be super fancy or super expensive - but some attention should be paid to detail - and the venue should be clean and pleasant.

Concerning the cost of things - when you take into account the rising cost of food - transportation - utilities - labor - well it's not surprising that fine dining is getting more expensive everywhere. So is dining anywhere for that matter - even at home (I just paid $15 for a pound of pine nuts that cost $10 perhaps 2 years ago). Robyn

[Ptipois]

Ah, at last an opportunity to disagree with Julot. I think Daniel Rose is an exceptional chef, that there is true grace and art in his cooking and in his style, and he rates very high in my book. High enough for a Michelin star in my opinion, but I'm not the Michelin and I think the Michelin is not tailored for that kind of grace. Not the right formatting — they wouldn't get it.

His 16-couverts restaurant in the 9e is not pre-booked three months ahead for nothing. And this is not Le Comptoir, he has no need for childish booking strategies to appear desirable.

(Going to Sa.qua.na tonight, tomorrow I'll tell here how much of a future French star I think this one is.)

Edited July 6, 2008 by Ptipois (log)

[Jon Tseng]

Jean Sulpice, Veyrat alumnus who won his first star at L'Oxalys (Val Thorens) aged 28ish.

Not your average ski resort chef.

[robyn]

I haven't dined at Spring - so I can't comment on the food. But you take a *very small* restaurant with a cheap menu for Paris (it is cheaper than a couple of excellent restaurants we have here in the Jacksonville FL area) - combine it with a chef - and probably a staff - that speaks good English - and you have a recipe for a successful restaurant in Paris - no matter what the food is like - as long as it is "ok". Does anyone think this restaurant would be as successful if it charged $150/head for dinner - as opposed to $63? If not - then it is merely a good value - not an exceptional restaurant.

I have looked at the pictures of the restaurant - and it reminds me a lot of York Street in Dallas - a James Beard nominee (a restaurant to try when in Dallas if you have a car (it is a bit out of the way) - but the food there is merely very pleasant - not exceptional or memorable - if one compares it to dining all over the world.

BTW - being a reasonably good - but not excellent - "at home" chef - I agree with the "I can do that at home" test. If I can do it at home in terms of preparing things - a restaurant isn't worthy of a Michelin star. Note also that I don't necessarily give a restaurant "extra points" simply because it serves lots of luxury ingredients. I can buy fresh foie gras - sear it at home - and serve it with a nice sauce. I usually find the best preparations of less expensive ingredients are more interesting. Who was it who said that the best test of a chef is an excellent preparation of a simple fish dish?

Note that since it is still 3 months since I'll be in Paris - I really haven't nailed down my dining schedule yet. But I will have to try at least one or two chefs who are up and coming (whether from no stars to one - or 2 stars to 3). Won't start figuring out who they are until August or so. Robyn

Edited July 6, 2008 by robyn (log)

[Ptipois]

The menu at Spring is not particularly cheap as Paris restaurants go. There are plenty of cheaper bistrots and restaurants in Paris that are also excellent but they don't offer the same thing. Spring has a style and is very unique as I said above. Perhaps you should try it before you try to explain why it is successful.

[robyn]

You don't think 42 euros - $63 USD is peanuts? Or perhaps I don't have the right numbers? Robyn

[Julian Teoh]

I don't think Passard was the youngest two star. I think that honor goes to Gerard Pangaud, who got his second star at age 29.

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I thought Passard got his second star at 26 when he was at the Casino d'Enghien?