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marktynernyc

fish dish in Torino

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Just got back from 2 weeks in Northern italy - Torino, Ballagio, Mantova and Milan. A good solid vacation - great meals, wonderful art, beautiful villas and gardens. And I promise a trip report - but i have a question:

While in Torino - I had this wonderful fish dish - the fish was fried, then marinated in a sweet & sour marinade for 24 hours, served cold - sometimes plain, sometimes with onions and raisins. Similar to sarde in saor from Venice. Does anyone know the name of the dish I'm refering to?

(And I thought the cuisine in Mantova was delicious - especially the uniquely spiced pumpkin ravioli)

Thanks.

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Sounds to me like 'sarda in saor". I think I spelled that right....

But, it's sardines, that are lightly fried, barely cooked, then layered with hot cooked onions and raisins and some vinegar, then left to marinate for at least 24-48 hours. Good stuff. Popular in Venice.

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That's what I was thinking but Venice being on the opposite side I wasn't sure. I think one place used salmon (???), another place a white fish of some sort, possibly trout (????) - both very thin - and I think another place did do a version with sardines. All had a coating - most were chilled and had that wonderful sweet sour cold going on - I thought it could be a great summer beach dish.

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Yes, yes, yummily yes!

but the type of fish is an inland fish, ie lake fish, a specific type that lives in the area around Torino. The dish is one of Torino's most famous and delicious.....i once spent several days with a big big bowl of the stuff and a Torinese woman who was mad about it and had as good an appetite as myself.

She also recommended to me the restaurant La Badessa which we loved, in case you are in the area again. the name means the mother superior as the building is a former nunnery, and the dishes are very rich and traditional.

Marlena


Marlena the spieler

www.marlenaspieler.com

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Just got back from 2 weeks in Northern italy - Torino, Ballagio, Mantova and Milan. A good solid vacation - great meals, wonderful art, beautiful villas and gardens.  And I promise a trip report - but i have a question:

While in Torino - I had this wonderful fish dish - the fish was fried, then marinated in a sweet & sour marinade for 24 hours, served cold - sometimes plain, sometimes with onions and raisins.  Similar to sarde in saor from Venice. Does anyone know the name of the dish I'm refering to?

(And I thought the cuisine in Mantova was delicious - especially the uniquely spiced pumpkin ravioli)

Thanks.

"In carpione" is the preparation for freshwater fish that resembles "in saor."


Maureen B. Fant
www.maureenbfant.com

www.elifanttours.com

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Salmo carpio is that salmonid found in lake Garda and is known as "carpione" as mentioned above. But the method of preparing the dish and name of the dish is used for other types of fish. One fish from Torino that is prepared in carpione is the tench. Oddly the medieval recipe for carpione is the opposite of the modern recipe, first the fish is marinated, then fried.

A similar 14th century Tuscan recipe is called "schibezia", and there is and extant dish called "a scapece", these are derived from "escabeche" and beyond.


Edited by Adam Balic (log)

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Salmo carpio is that salmonid found in lake Garda and is known as "carpione" as mentioned above. But the method of preparing the dish and name of the dish is used for other types of fish. One fish from Torino that is prepared in carpione is the tench. Oddly the medieval recipe for carpione is the opposite of the modern recipe, first the fish is marinated, then fried.

A similar 14th century Tuscan recipe is called "schibezia", and there is and extant dish called "a scapece", these are derived from "escabeche" and beyond.

Lest anyone think that anything can be this cut and dry in Italy.... I took a short stroll thru some of my resources and came up with the following:

In a current dictionary (Garzntii), carpione is described as a large carp. In an old Veneto recipe, they use the word carpione to mean carp.

In Emilia Romagna, Lombardi, Peimonte, the word shows up as either 'in carpione', or 'al carpione' and the recipes call for similar preparations involving white vinegar. These recipes all use fresh water fish such as pike, perch, trout, or tench (which is allied to the carp).

I could only find the word 'scapece' in Abruzzo and Calabria. In the town of Vasto in Abruzzo, scapece is a vinegared, preserved fish recipe. My source doesn't indicate the type of fish, only that it is cut up pieces of fish.

There are numerous other recipes in Abruzzo & Calabira that use 'in scapece', but these are for eggplant or zucchini 'rollups.

I came up totally empty on 'schibezia'. But, the fun is in the hunt, so I'll keep looking.

Adam, is salmon also allied with carp?

And getting back to the original reason for the question, secondo me, this would make a great dish for a summer picnic.

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Maureen is correct. "In carpione" is used not only for fish in the Piemonte, but also for vegetables, fried veal or chicken cutlet and even fried eggs, all of which are marinated and served cold (well, usually room temperature) in the summertime, most often as a mixed plate.


Bill Klapp

bklapp@egullet.com

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The lake Garda "carpione" is Salmo carpio which is a salmon/trout relative (same genus as Atlantic salmon and brown trout, in some cases it is classified as a sub-species of the latter). Carp are not related.

However, the is a relationship in the name: carpione (Salmo carpio) and common carp (Cyprinus carpio). The shared part of the name doesn't mean that they are related, just that they are share a common characteristic, in this case the salmon/trout from lake Garda is being described as being carp-like.There is also another native trout called "Carpione del Fibreno".

Modern Italian for carp is "carpa", but due to the similarity in names a lot of English-Italian dictionaries give the definition of "carpione" as "carp" and in some cases as being specific to lake Garda. As far as I know there is no carp in Garda known as "Carpione" in reality. However carp is prepared as "Carpione", like a lot of other fish. The salmon/trout fish is rare and restricted, so it is little wonder that there is so many other fish that are associated with the name.

"Carpione" as a dish has been around for a long time and in fact a verb form ("carpionare") has developed to mean "to fry fish then marinate it". Usually this dish is associated with Northern Italy, however in 15th century Naples the word "acarpionado" was used as verb for this treatment. Usually the root of "carpione" is derived from "carpa", but I wonder it that is correct.

Its possible that it is derived from "escabeche" or escabechar. One source mentions that a medival form of Italian "escabeche" is known as "alla scapetia" for instance.

Salmo carpio is that salmonid found in lake Garda and is known as "carpione" as mentioned above. But the method of preparing the dish and name of the dish is used for other types of fish. One fish from Torino that is prepared in carpione is the tench. Oddly the medieval recipe for carpione is the opposite of the modern recipe, first the fish is marinated, then fried.

A similar 14th century Tuscan recipe is called "schibezia", and there is and extant dish called "a scapece", these are derived from "escabeche" and beyond.

Lest anyone think that anything can be this cut and dry in Italy.... I took a short stroll thru some of my resources and came up with the following:

In a current dictionary (Garzntii), carpione is described as a large carp. In an old Veneto recipe, they use the word carpione to mean carp.

In Emilia Romagna, Lombardi, Peimonte, the word shows up as either 'in carpione', or 'al carpione' and the recipes call for similar preparations involving white vinegar. These recipes all use fresh water fish such as pike, perch, trout, or tench (which is allied to the carp).

I could only find the word 'scapece' in Abruzzo and Calabria. In the town of Vasto in Abruzzo, scapece is a vinegared, preserved fish recipe. My source doesn't indicate the type of fish, only that it is cut up pieces of fish.

There are numerous other recipes in Abruzzo & Calabira that use 'in scapece', but these are for eggplant or zucchini 'rollups.

I came up totally empty on 'schibezia'. But, the fun is in the hunt, so I'll keep looking.

Adam, is salmon also allied with carp?

And getting back to the original reason for the question, secondo me, this would make a great dish for a summer picnic.

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