Italian - the true test?

[SamanthaF]

Okay let me straighten you guys out. Except for Sam who has got it spot on.

Naturally

[Tonyfinch]

Peter's right in that the Italian food served in London is not the same (or as "authentic") as that served in Italy,but my point is so what? It is a different genre. Restaurants like Locatelli, Zafferano, River Cafe and so on serve up what you might call "Modern London Italian". They are attempting to be interesting and sometimes groundbreaking restaurants. They acknowledge that their ideas and sometimes their ingredients and many of their staff are from Italy but they are not trying to be "real" Italian restaurants in the sense that Peter means it because they can't be. They are operating in a completely different milieu.

[peterpumkino]

For once I agree with Tony and Steve's answer was perfect.

FYI Tony, you are correct - I do agree that it's a 'so what?' situation. It is just that I like Italian food as it is served in Italy and not "Modern London Italian" - that is my preference and by damn I'll defend my right to express it .

Regarding your use of the big word 'unidentified' Macrosan - I will explain for the umpteenth time:

The balance of the meal that you get on Italy is unique and you will not get this balance in London as punters expect a main dish with all the trimmings as that is how we eat in the UK!! Sometimes non-italians are a bit dissapppinted with the Italian main dishes as they are quite sparse but it is precisely this balance that I like.

In regards to 'regions' I do not specify regions as it really does not matter, ergo 'unidentified' (why identify a region when it's irrelevant?). Whereever you are in Italy the balance of the food is the same, the freshness of the ingredients are the same and the pasta is always al dente - end of story (I hope).

If we want me to go in greater detail I will - but I assume you now understand.

[Adam Balic]

In regards to 'regions' I do not specify regions as it really does not matter, ergo 'unidentified' (why identify a region when it's irrelevant?).  Whereever you are in Italy the balance of the food is the same, the freshness of the ingredients are the same and the pasta is always al dente - end of story (I hope).

What? . Oh, I see. Very funny, Peter hasn't actually been to Italy . Good joke, but why did it take so many months to tell I ask you?

[SamanthaF]

In regards to 'regions' I do not specify regions as it really does not matter, ergo 'unidentified' (why identify a region when it's irrelevant?).  Whereever you are in Italy the balance of the food is the same, the freshness of the ingredients are the same and the pasta is always al dente - end of story (I hope).

What? . Oh, I see. Very funny, Peter hasn't actually been to Italy . Good joke, but why did it take so many months to tell I ask you?

LOL

[Matthew Grant]

Matthew, if you didn't eat well in Rome than you have no one to blame but yourself for not doing enough research.

Finally I agree about Mathew. There are some appalling restaurants in Rome (as I have said before, if you see the menu in English run a mile, if you it's also in Japanese run the 4-minute mile) but there are a million truly memorable restaurants there. Do your research Mathew and get away from the tourist restaurants.

[circeplum]

Before I sit down to eat, I want a complete reference point as to what is going to be on my plate. Since dining is ultimately a comparitive experience, I need to calibrate my taste buds accordingly so I have the proper reference points to apply against what they are going to serve.

bionic buds?

now i really have heard it all ...

[macrosan]

As an example of how bad it was, I would rather eat out in Croydon ... than head back to Rome for a meal.

On a positive note it is a beautiful city ...

Oh boy, Matthew, I've never heard Croydon described as a beautiful city but it does have a few nice features

It's interesting to assess a whole city for its level of culinary achievement, and I think it's a valid form of assessment. Not scientific, not accurate, but I do think it can say something about a city as a whole.

I have formulated the same view of Brussels that you did of Rome. I think that 10-15 years ago I would have thought the same of London (and Croydon!) but they have positively improved over that period.

But for me, the star city for general excellence of restaurants simply has to be New York. I have found a poor meal in New York to be a rarity, and a very good meal to be commonplace. And you don't even have to avoid tourist traps or do detailed advance research. You can just walk along a street, look at the setup of the place and the menu, and walk in with a reasonable expectation of getting the quality of meal you would expect.

[thom]

I agree Macrosan, for me NY is still the easiest place to eat out well in.

In simplistic terms (don't get into debating the detail here folks...) the culinary highs in NY are not significantly higher than in London, nor the lows lower. It's just that on average random eating (as opposed to researched eating) gets you more ok-great meals in NY, and less ok to bad.

NY is a city where you don't have to be a clued up passionate foodie to eat well (though if you are the experience just gets better), and that has to be a good thing for the world at large.

That said, you still struggle for a decent curry over there...

Cheers

Thom

[peterpumkino]

It's just that on average random eating (as opposed to researched eating) gets you more ok-great meals in NY, and less ok to bad.

You mean bland?

[thom]

No Peter, if I'd meant 'bland' I would have said 'bland'. I think though I did mention not getting hung up on the details of my statement, it was intended as broad brush...

I don't think 'ok to great' as overall ratings for a dining experience would ever be synonyms for 'bland': "Peter, that meal was great, thank you so much", "Glad you liked it love, I too thought it was really bland"....

I do though think it is a good thing that people who are not as anal about food as we few are regularly exposed to a wide variety of good food and good restaurants (good as in 'positive', rather than good as in 'mediocre'). This happens more in NY than other cities.

On a different matter though, I strongly believe Locanda Locatelli to be a truely authentic Italian restaurant, and AA Gill to be an appalling food critic.

Cheers

Thom

[Kikujiro]

I kind of agree on the NY front. I am much happier just walking in to a place there than here. Of course, (i) I do that less and less as I become more informed about NY dining options and build up some personal favourites; (ii) just walking in to a place isn't a real option here, as firstly one can judge an awful amount by looking at it and reading the menu, and secondly you tend to have heard something about a lot of restaurants.

But take sandwiches. I will get a much better sandwich rolling in to the average diner in NYC than the average historically-Italian-immigrant-run inner city sandwich bar over here.

Edit caveat: on the other hand I have been relatively unimpressed with Grammercy Tavern, so go figure.

[peterpumkino]

I ate in a Michelin starred restaurant where we were treated with disdain and I ate in tourist havens, nearly all of them with the same result, average food.

Wow, Mathew. You really are a masochist aren't you. Either that or stupidly brave!

First of all I rarely eat at Michelin restaurants in Italy. The last time was at one of the few 3-stars (Il Vecchio Ponte at Abbietegrasso) and, surprise, surprise, it's French! Now, I do admit that the French do French better than the Italians!

Secondly you need go no further than the airport self-service no less for good food. I was there recently with my Floridian daughter and we ordered Fritto Misto. They had a special area for that and the chef there had just finished frying the lastest batch, he distributed the Misto and then started on ours. Amazingly there was quite a bit on the bottom which he through out! My daughter said she would have had that! But the chef said, no, it has to be very fresh (i.e. cooked and served within five minutes). What other airport self-service can boast that kind of attention to detail?

I truly wonder where you ate Mathew. OK the Michelin was a waste of time as were the tourist restaurants and, possibly, Il Convivio, but what about the 'little trattorias with no English menu' - where were they, Croydon?

I am trying really hard not to be rude or 'superior' but I really find it amazing what you've reported. Something is very wrong somewhere. Maybe you just don't like 'Italian food as cooked in Italy' and that's OK but I would definitely not use the word 'average' to describe food in Italy!

[Adam Balic]

I am trying really hard not to be rude or 'superior' but I really find it amazing what you've reported.  Something is very wrong somewhere. Maybe you just don't like 'Italian food as cooked in Italy' and that's OK but I would definitely not use the word 'average' to describe food in Italy!

Try harder, you giving the impression of being a parochial, ignorant snob. After reading peoples comments on their experiences in Italy it is the hight of arrogance to assume that they 'don't get it' or they "just don't like Italian food".

[britcook]

I am trying really hard not to be rude or 'superior' but I really find it amazing what you've reported.  Something is very wrong somewhere. Maybe you just don't like 'Italian food as cooked in Italy' and that's OK but I would definitely not use the word 'average' to describe food in Italy!

Try harder, you giving the impression of being a parochial, ignorant snob. After reading peoples comments on their experiences in Italy it is the hight of arrogance to assume that they 'don't get it' or they "just don't like Italian food".

Well maybe I wouldn't have put it quite in Peter's words but I tend to think he's not far from the truth here. Italian food may not be to everybody's taste, and there's no shame in that, but from the reported reactions I suspect that maybe Italian cuisine is not high on somebody's list of favourites. I've eaten several times in Rome from the trattoria with no English to the "tourist trap" - on a bus tour fercryinoutloud - and have never been disappointed.

But there again there is more heat than light being generated here, as in the following:

there are as many "real Italian" meals as there are people in Italy who know how to cook them. That the variations are so numerous that to talk of "real Italian food" is meaningless

So what is there? Fake Italian food? Artificial Italian food? Do they all cook entirely different things? Sheesh!

[Matthew Grant]

Why am I a masochist? When top end restaurants and 'true' Italian restaurants couldn't deliver I hit a couple of tourist ones to see what the result was. Il Convivio is an Italian restaurant with a Michelin star, how is this comparable (aside from the Michelin rating) to a poor French meal that you ate in Italy?

In the end Planet Hollywood turned out the best (this wasn't saying much) pasta we ate in Rome - now that is frightening! Even crappy Italian restaurants should be able to turn out a reasonable Pasta Al Pomodoro, they weren't even reasonable they were distinctly poor.

Incidentally, I didn't describe the food in Italy as average, I applied that description as a (generous) generalisation of the food I ate in Rome. I'm sure that most food obsessed people would not put Rome towards the top of their list when it comes to food? As for anybody that did, I would have to question their judgement.

I perfectly understand the workings of Italian food, the pasta, the meat the vegetable courses, I don't care if my meat dish comes out with no sides, this didn't detract from the meals in anyway, it was technique that was lacking in simple dishes that anybody should be able to turn out well.

[Adam Balic]

Well maybe I wouldn't have put it quite in Peter's words but I tend to think he's not far from the truth here. Italian food may not be to everybody's taste, and there's no shame in that, but from the reported reactions I suspect that maybe Italian cuisine is not high on somebody's list of favourites. I've eaten several times in Rome from the trattoria with no English to the "tourist trap" - on a bus tour fercryinoutloud - and have never been disappointed.

But there again there is more heat than light being generated here, as in the following:

Actually BC, Italian food in Italy is near the top of the list for all time fav. foods (I think that I have posted on this in the "Italy" section.)

I have eaten funghi risotto mad with tinned mushrooms and boiled non-risotto rice in Venice, but also had amazing soft shelled crab on the same trip there. One dish was terrible one was a great and unique experience (you guess). The implication that I just don't get/like Italian food because I didn't like the former is false and insulting.

Italy's regions have a great cuisine, but to imply that people who have had a negative experience are fools, in one way or another, is ignorant and a bit pathetic.

[britcook]

...but to imply that people who have had a negative experience are fools, in one way or another, is ignorant and a bit pathetic.

I certainly hope I didn't imply this, as they say s**t happens and in a restaurant it can happen to anybody. I know that several people swear by NYC but I have yet to have what I would call a great meal there (well maybe the odd breakfast exception), and I'm still not sure whether it's through poor choice or I just "don't get" New York dining, but it doesn't make me an idiot.

[Kikujiro]

Once upon a time Gary M posted a review of Locanda Locatelli which mutated into a long and fairly circular digression on Peter's views about Italian food. That was all well and good in its own terms, but now it keeps respawning in different threads on different topics. I think I understand as much as I ever will about Peter's views on the topic, and many of us have gone to some lengths to post our own thoughts. Yet it isn't stopping. And what's getting to me is that it's not a continuation, it's the exact same stuff all over again.

We discussed the place of Circeplum's mother's birth in the Locatelli thread, and now it's raised again in one on Venetian restaurants. Peter told us about Italians driving to Sunday lunch and the rusticity of polenta in the Locatelli thread and has now related the exact same things in Fat Guy's discussion on the gastronomic irrelevance of Italian food. He told us a story about having fritto misto at Rome airport on the Locatelli thread and revived it in this one, at the same time taking the opportunity to repeat his news about drinking beer with pizza from, yes, the Locatelli thread.

What we all forget is that towards the end of the Locatelli thread Peter revealed he was just 'winding everybody up'. In any case, as far as I can see, through all the hyping of Italian restaurants in Italy, there has been one concrete example (that self-service at Rome airport; go for the the fritto misto).

Still, we're all grown ups (I think -- any kids or teenagers here?) and none of us, including me, has anyone but ourselves to blame for continuing to take up our own time with this. It's certainly a vast improvement on the dark days when Tyke and Ironbird (they were the same person, right?) kept joyriding around the site.

(Matthew: sounds like fairly bad luck to me; I hope it doesn't seriously put you off another trip.)

[Gavin Jones]

Yet it isn't stopping. And what's getting to me is that it's not a continuation, it's the exact same stuff all over again.

The joy & curse of egullet.

Analysis ends when you realise it can go on forever.

[Charles Smith]

Matthew-

I hope you get the opportunity to get to Rome again and have a better eating experience- I think it's the best city for inexpensive dining in Europe- a perfect day for me eating in Rome revolves around the markets and wine bars- I've also had an amazingly great time at horrible restaurants in Rome- worth another shot IMHO.

Cheers

Charles

[Adam Balic]

...but to imply that people who have had a negative experience are fools, in one way or another, is ignorant and a bit pathetic.

I certainly hope I didn't imply this, as they say s**t happens and in a restaurant it can happen to anybody. I know that several people swear by NYC but I have yet to have what I would call a great meal there (well maybe the odd breakfast exception), and I'm still not sure whether it's through poor choice or I just "don't get" New York dining, but it doesn't make me an idiot.

BC - sorry, poor sentence structure. I was ranting at the wind, not you!

As to NYC, well I've never been there, but I look forward to it.

Kikujiro - Thank you, I hadn't read the other posts. Will take this information on board.

[peterpumkino]

Kikijuro,

I am very impressed, people actually read the posts! I honestly thought that that was not the case. I apologize and will cease and desist (although I have lots of other stories!).

Regards

Your boring friend.

[peterpumkino]

Try harder, you giving the impression of being a parochial, ignorant snob. After reading peoples comments on their experiences in Italy it is the hight of arrogance to assume that they 'don't get it' or they "just don't like Italian food".

Adam,

I hope you read Britcook's response. There is absolutely nothing wrong in not liking 'Italian food as cooked in Italy'. There's nothing wrong in absolutely adoring The Olive Garden either. To each their own and that's what makes the World go around so there's absolutely no need to be offensive (and, in this case, totally wrong IMHO).

[Adam Balic]

Yes and I hope that you read my reply. On the offensive note, if you are going to make generalizations about what is the real deal with Italian (without and evidence or facts), tell people that it is their own fault that they have eaten badly and imply that American's don't know anthying about food then really, what do you expect, a pat on the head?