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Japanese Knives: The Big Topic

rgruby

By rgruby
in Kitchen Consumer

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pizzajoe62

pizzajoe62

Posted
Posted (edited)

thank you mike & bob.

i actually posted a similar query in another forum...

bob, i was the one that ask you about this same knives & the masahiro at your gallery.

anyway, what draws me to the kumagoro is the black patina & hammer finish.

is the blackened patina less prone to rusting?

w/c stainless nakiri would you guys recommend?

what do you guys think of the mac nakiri?

thanks again.

joe

Edited by pizzajoe62 (log)
Octaveman

Octaveman

Posted
Posted

The Kumagoro is certainly a good looking knife and yes, it would reduce the rust issue. But if you wash and dry your knife after your done using it, rust will never be a factor...ever. I've got many carbon steel knives without the kurouchi finish and they've never showed any signs of rust.

I've heard that the Tojiro DP is a great SS nakiri. I haven't heard anything about the MAC but it looks like a decent knife. It's super light though. If it were me I would get something else.

My Photography: Bob Worthington Photography

 

My music: Coronado Big Band
 

miles717

miles717

Posted
Posted
thank you mike & bob.

i actually posted a similar query in another forum...

bob, i was the one that ask you about this same knives & the masahiro at your gallery.

anyway, what draws me to the kumagoro is the black patina & hammer finish.

is the blackened patina less prone to rusting?

w/c stainless nakiri would you guys recommend?

what do you guys think of the mac nakiri?

thanks again.

joe

The short answer is that a carbon blade with patina on it and blades with kurouchi (black matte) finish will be less prone to rust. The reason is that the patina and/or kurouchi finish have "sealed" the surface of the steel, leaving it less prone to react to moisture or other elements in the environment which would lead to corrosion and rusting. In fact, many people, myself incuded, have experimented with "forcing the patina" on carbon blades to make them less reactive. That said, any knife, including stainless will rust if not properly cared for or are exposed to the right environmental factors.

Carbon steel discoloration due to use in the kitchen is almost impossible to avoid and shouldn't be confused with actual corrosion in the form of rust. The patina formed by the reaction between the steel and acids and other reactants in food should be considered a good thing, as it serves to protect the blade and IMHO, is aesthetically pleasing as it shows that the knife has been well used.

I have quite a few carbon blades, none of which have ever suffered from any rusting because I take care to wipe them down after use and keep them clean. The manner in which I treat my carbon blades is no different from how I treat my stainless blades. Keep them clean and dry. For longer storage, oil them with camellia oil and/or store them in newsprint and carbon blades will take good care of you in return.

As for the Mac Nakiri, I'm not a big nakiri guy, although I've used them on occasion. I've never used the Mac, so I can't offer a personal opinion, but I have a half dozen or so Mac knives in my extended kit. I think they make a good knife and offer good performance and value. I wouldn't hesitate to give any of their blades a try.

-Mike-

WiscoNole

WiscoNole

Posted
Posted
But I do think the maintenance gear for these knives is expensive ... stones, papers, strops, compounds, educational materials, etc. etc...

Out of those you really only need to spend money on stones. Papers, strops, and compounds are all unnecessary items that are used to take the edge finer than anyone would actually need to take it. I use my Japanese knives in a professional setting and there is no need whatsoever for me to have a knife that has been stropped. Honestly, in my experience, I don't need to do anything past an 8000 grit waterstone to have the sharpest knife in the kitchen. As for costly educational materials, the internet is quite free.

Batard

Batard

Posted
Posted (edited)

Most of the ZDP189 knives I have seen are tactical knives, not culinary. I don't know of any Japanese blades, but William Henry makes knife sets out of this steel (http://www.williamhenryknives.com/product/culinary/index.html). But at $2000 for a set of 5, I'd keep looking for those Japanese knives.

Anyone who wants to read more about this type of steel can check these PDFs.

* http://www.williamhenryknives.com/press-aw...rticles/ZDP.pdf

* http://www.williamhenryknives.com/press-aw...tactical-05.pdf

Edited by Batard (log)

"There's nothing like a pork belly to steady the nerves."

Fergus Henderson

CommissionerLin

CommissionerLin

Posted
Posted
Right here. Click the "specials" button under "prdoucts" and scroll aboutr half way down.

Alternatively, include "Hitachi" and "HRC 66" in your search criteria.

Wow thanks Helen, bang on, that "SANETU" santoku looks like a gem. Pity its out of stock.

Anyone who wants to read more about this type of steel can check these PDFs.

Great articles Batard. I'd heard that ZDP blades have great edge retention but I've also heard that they can be very tough to sharpen. Is this true?

CommissionerLin

CommissionerLin

Posted
Posted
Right here. Click the "specials" button under "prdoucts" and scroll aboutr half way down.

Helen, thanks for referring the JCK website to me. Although the Sanetu ZDP189 was unavailable, I managed to slake my thirst for a new knife by purchasing not one but two Hattori diving knives. I knew that Hattori made culinary and hunting knives but I had not known hitherto that he made diving knives as well. The photos were irresistable and well...I succumbed.

Octaveman

Octaveman

Posted
Posted (edited)

I have not but I've heard it can be difficult. Any knife with high HRC would be tough to sharpen really. Also how you sharpen or what stones you use can make it difficult or easy.

Actually, the only time you would have a hard time with it is when it comes time to thin the blade. Regular sharpenings should not pose much of a problem. Keeping it touched up on the stones should be just as easy. Although I've never owned one, I've heard they're great knives.

Edited by Octaveman (log)

My Photography: Bob Worthington Photography

 

My music: Coronado Big Band
 

CommissionerLin

CommissionerLin

Posted
Posted

Thanks Octaveman, thanks Dave. I think I will take the plunge.

BTW the Hattori diving knives arrived on Friday. I think these may be the sharpest diving knives I have ever come across. It seems like a real waste to take one of these gems underwater where contact with saltwater, fishbone and reef will surely take its toll. Maybe this one is destined for the collecter's cabinet...

rmillman

rmillman

Posted
Posted

Wow:

The people at JCK are amazing. I saw this thread, read the post that JCK had them back in stock, ordered it that day it it showed up today in Boston: sent from Japan.

I would highly recommend this seller and the knife . . . UMG, it is crazy sharp and has a great hand feel.

dougal

dougal

Posted
Posted

Mine arrived today.

Beautiful.

And sharp.

Its not at all heavy, but, out of the box, it will ever-so-nearly slice carrot under its own weight.

Not at all surprised about the warnings not to cut hard things with it, like bone.

Bit surprised to see Pumpkin included on the list.

Very surprised to see Pineapple.

Surely its not *that* delicate a surgical instrument, is it?

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

Octaveman

Octaveman

Posted
Posted (edited)

Yeah, I'm surprised about pumpkin but not so much about Pineapple as it has those knots (for lack of a better word) on the rhind that could catch the edge.

Japanese knives are taken down to very acute bevels...usually around 8-10* per side. This creates a superior slicing machine but also creates a somewhat weaker edge depending on the blade material. Steels like ZDP189 can handle the most acute angles quite nicely while others like VG10 could have issues. To account for this, anyone can change the original angles to be slightly more obtuse. By doing so, you create a stronger edge that can handle hard rhined veggies/fruits with no problem. If it gets little micro chips, so what. The knife is still vey usable. No need to grind down your knife for every little chip that comes along. The knives edge is still strong enough to keep going. Next time you sharpen, change your angle so it won't chip as much. It takes several sharpenings for your knife to become your own and perform flawlessly. So to answer your question, it's not THAT delicate but can be slightly modified to make it less so.

Edited by Octaveman (log)

My Photography: Bob Worthington Photography

 

My music: Coronado Big Band
 

paulraphael

paulraphael

Posted
Posted (edited)

I think the issue is less hardness of the food than a kind of toughness that could grab the edge of the blade. If the blade catches in something of certain consistencies, and you torque it one way or another, you could chip the edge. After a certain degree of hardening, kinfe steel takes on a brittle failure mode, so it chips instead of bending. I have some softer knives with faint ripples in the edge; those would likely have been chips if I did whatever I'd done with my gyuto.

I don't cut a lot of pineapple, so I don't have much sense of it. I read elsewhere that by "pumpkin," JCK might be talking about some heavier duty kinds of squash or gourds.

Edited by paulraphael (log)

Notes from the underbelly

dougal

dougal

Posted
Posted
...  I read elsewhere that by "pumpkin," JCK might be talking about some heavier duty kinds of squash or gourds.

Thanks for the instant responses!

Also worth noting (and possibly implicit in Paul's comment) is that the "care instructions" (being outside the knife's own packing) are probably extremely general, rather than specific to this wonder knife, which I hope will deliver exceptional cutting (check), without as much fussiness (as to frequent sharpening, or excessive delicacy) as an 'ordinary' special knife... ! (I'm looking forward to finding out :smile: )

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

EdS

EdS

Posted
Posted
I don't cut a lot of pineapple, so I don't have much sense of it. I read elsewhere that by "pumpkin," JCK might be talking about some heavier duty kinds of squash or gourds.

The reference is to kabocha, otherwise known as Japanese pumpkin or Japanese squash. It's a common Japanese ingredient.

CommissionerLin

CommissionerLin

Posted
Posted
Mine arrived today.

Beautiful.

And sharp.

Its not at all heavy, but, out of the box, it will ever-so-nearly slice carrot under its own weight.

Surely its not *that* delicate a surgical instrument, is it?

Hi can I confirm that you bought the SANETU ZDP189? I have been eyeing that knive but haven't quite taken the plunge yet. I look forward to hearing your views on whether its worth its price. How does does its edge retention properties sit with ease of sharpening?

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