Japanese Knives: The Big Topic

[Jon Savage]

I definately will need a Deba

Western yo-deba or Japanese wa-deba, single or double beveled?

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Traditional single beveled wa-deba

[paulraphael]

I definately will need a Deba

Western yo-deba or Japanese wa-deba, single or double beveled?

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A Yo Deba is really just a fat, brutish chef's knife. It's not for any traditional Japanese techniques. A Wa Deba is traditional and for butchering and filleting fish, although it's also sometimes used to mince herbs and to to a few non-fish butchering tasks.

You can get a great one for under $80 at Epicurian Edge. It's their house brand, called (confusingly) Hon Kasumi (it's not a hon kasumi style knife). I've heard from pros who use this knife butchering in restaurants ... it gets a big thumbs up.

[Jon Savage]

I definately will need a Deba

Western yo-deba or Japanese wa-deba, single or double beveled?

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A Yo Deba is really just a fat, brutish chef's knife. It's not for any traditional Japanese techniques. A Wa Deba is traditional and for butchering and filleting fish, although it's also sometimes used to mince herbs and to to a few non-fish butchering tasks.

You can get a great one for under $80 at Epicurian Edge. It's their house brand, called (confusingly) Hon Kasumi (it's not a hon kasumi style knife). I've heard from pros who use this knife butchering in restaurants ... it gets a big thumbs up.

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Thanks Paul - I linked to that one in my initial post. At under $80 it certainly does seem to be well priced

[paulraphael]

You can get great traditional knives in all the shapes for reasonable prices. The real trick is developing your cutting and sharpening techniques.

All these knives will require a ton of hand work out of the box to flatten the bevels and polish the edges. If you've never done it, there's a lot of oportunity to completely jack up the knife ways that are difficult or impossible to repair. So I'd put at least as much attention into learning these skills as you put into chosing the knives.

[Jon Savage]

You can get great traditional knives in all the shapes for reasonable prices. The real trick is developing your cutting and sharpening techniques.

All these knives will require a ton of hand work out of the box to flatten the bevels and polish the edges. If you've never done it, there's a lot of oportunity to completely jack up the knife ways that are difficult or impossible to repair. So I'd put at least as much attention into learning these skills as you put into chosing the knives.

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Absolutely which is also why I'd rather not go towards high end knives at this time, I know I'm going to have to develop a higher skill level with the waterstones than needed for my western style Japanese knives. I don't think I'll manage to ruin any knives in the process but acknowledge the possibility that some risk of that is part of the learning curve.

What I'm looking for is other suggestions beyond the ones at Epicurian Edge. All of the Debas I saw at jck were well north of $200 which is more than I care to risk until my sharpening skills have become more developed.

Edited August 14, 2009 by 6ppc (log)

[Octaveman]

I've heard nothing but good things on the Hon Kasumi knives at EE. I say go for it.

[Jon Savage]

I've heard nothing but good things on the Hon Kasumi knives at EE.  I say go for it.

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OK Bob - I'll probably go there real soon now.

--edit I think your wife has one of these how did that work out?

Edited August 15, 2009 by 6ppc (log)

[paulraphael]

Another possibility is the kasumi grade house brand deba sold by Korin, but I don't think this is as good a value.

A bigger question is what length to get. This is a subject of some contention. I'd be inclined to get a 180mm, but I know some people advocate getting a longer (more expensive) one, and putting a back bevel on the few inches of the blade closest to the heel, for chopping through bones.

[Jon Savage]

Another possibility is the kasumi grade house brand deba sold by Korin, but I don't think this is as good a value.

A bigger question is what length to get. This is a subject of some contention. I'd be inclined to get a 180mm, but I know some people advocate getting a longer (more expensive) one, and putting a back bevel on the few inches of the blade closest to the heel, for chopping through bones.

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I'm leaning towards 180 mm, I have a throw away SS deba that size that I've managed to significantly improve while practicing on the stones. Definitely want carbon steel.

[Jon Savage]

I ordered the ones from EE just now. This will be fun.

[scubadoo97]

180 deba should be great. Have fun and let us know how it's going

[Jon Savage]

180 deba should be great.  Have fun and let us know how it's going

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Can do although there would have to be threads re: "Japanese Knife Techniques for the inept", "Single Bevel Knife Sharpening" and "waterstones - what was I thinking?" to do this any degree of justice.

Good times....

[paulraphael]

Can do although there would have to be threads re: "Japanese Knife Techniques for the inept", "Single Bevel Knife Sharpening" and "waterstones - what was I thinking?" to do this any degree of justice.

I wish we could find a teacher with Japanese and Western fine dining experience to update the EGCI knife skills course. That article is seriously long in the tooth.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I wish we could find a teacher with Japanese and Western fine dining experience to update the EGCI knife skills course. That article is seriously long in the tooth.

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Or a separate Japanese knife skills course might be even better, since the existing course seems to contain a unified body of knowledge covering the major French knife techniques. I'd be interested to read a Japanese knife skills course and follow along.

Meanwhile, here's a great series of demos I found demonstrating Japanese fish butchering--

http://www.suisan.n-nourin.jp/oh/osakana/e...okery/main.html

[Peter Green]

Meanwhile, here's a great series of demos I found demonstrating Japanese fish butchering--

http://www.suisan.n-nourin.jp/oh/osakana/e...okery/main.html

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that's worth bookmarking.

[Jon Savage]

I wish we could find a teacher with Japanese and Western fine dining experience to update the EGCI knife skills course. That article is seriously long in the tooth.

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Barring that the book I referenced upthread is a good start IMHO $20 well spent.

I wish we could find a teacher with Japanese and Western fine dining experience to update the EGCI knife skills course. That article is seriously long in the tooth.

←

Or a separate Japanese knife skills course might be even better, since the existing course seems to contain a unified body of knowledge covering the major French knife techniques. I'd be interested to read a Japanese knife skills course and follow along.

Meanwhile, here's a great series of demos I found demonstrating Japanese fish butchering--

http://www.suisan.n-nourin.jp/oh/osakana/e...okery/main.html

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Those demos are a great find. Thanks!

I received the knives from EE today- thanks Bob for the nudge. They are sharp right out of the box and the reverse on each knife shows evidence that someone took the time to flatten the backs.

[paulraphael]

Here are some other videos. Some are supposed to be instructional, others just for fun. They all show good technique and are worth mimicking.

Itasan18's deba techniques. (this guy has mad skillz and puts up new videos all the time ... worth subscribing on youtube. Scroll down for demos of various fish.

KCMA's technique videos. (these are great demonstrations of Japanese knife technique with a gyuto)

, of Top Chef fame (showing tip chopping, forward push cutting, and usu-zukuri on a flank steak with a gyuto, and also some basic cleaver techniques)

making lunch with / worshipping his mizuno gyuto. He does a surprising amount of what looks like rock-chopping, but if you look closely you can see that the front of the blad is just kissing the cutting board. Edited August 22, 2009 by paulraphael (log)

[David A. Goldfarb]

I just looked at some of the Itasan18 videos. Good stuff.

[Jon Savage]

Itasan is indeed awesome.

He makes it look so easy. Edited August 22, 2009 by 6ppc (log)

[Octaveman]

this is my favorite video breaking down a yellowtail with a deba then finishing off with a yanagiba.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2ijoxvyD6E

[Jon Savage]

A few more words about these now that I've had a few days to play with them.

Been using the Usuba daily; my skills are progressing slowly but that's no fault of the knife.

Broke out the deba today to debone and butcher a big hunk of BlueFin my wife scored today (she works in Fish Harbor). It too was a pleasure to use and capable of remarkably precise, even delicate, cuts.

The yanigiba sahshimified the tuna effortlessly.

This all is still using the factory edges - I suspect even better times are in store once I work the knives on the stones a bit.

IMHO these knives are a steal.

Edited August 25, 2009 by 6ppc (log)

[Indirect Heat]

So, work has me headed to Japan (Tokyo) and Korea (Jeju Island) next week. Thinking about getting myself a treat while I'm over there... If you had to bring back a Japanese knife, which knife would you bring back?

[Blether]

If I had to bring something back, I'd definitely drop by Japan Sword in Toranomon (right in central Tokyo). The top page there is a little inaccessible, but there's lots of English explanation and description as you drill down. It's a shame you're not here between June 30th and July 6th, Japan Sword's also connected with the exhibition by modern swordsmith Miyairi Kozaemon-Yukihira at Takashimaya in Nihonbashi.

At the budget end, I'd pick up something from this list

http://www.japansword.co.jp/mcargoe/price-e.htm

- say a Makie Matsutaka katana with a 71-cm blade: just like the tuna-cutters at Tsukiji, but fancier ! Then I'd get into your actual butchery of whole animals with it, and learn more about meat from the carcass stage to the primal cut. I might even try going out to hunt my own game - just when Bambi thought it was safe to go into the woods, bam !

At the high end, my own choice would be the 19.6cm Sadaichi Gassan Japanese-Navy-style tanken copy listed at #2 in the second modern sword list here. (I hope this works out, it's about 3/5 or 2/3 of the way down that whole page, in case the link takes you to the page top). Gassan was born the third son of swordsmith Sadakatsu Gassan in 1907, and created a living national treasure in 1971. I'd have something no-one else was cooking with, an excellent topic of conversation even for non-knife fans, and an instant get-out-of-jail-free card when I encountered a boring knife loony. Perfect.

But then I'm a sailor - that knife might not speak to you. And you'll be richer - or less of a cheapskate, anyway - than I am. If you really want to push the boat out, there's really no limit to how exclusive a blade you can score there.

[Hiroyuki]

If you happen to be a Shigefusa fan, and if you ever visit Shibuya for whatever reason (you may want to see the now world-famous "scramble crossing" at first hand, right?), consider dropping by Yoshizawa Riko.

Website showing the Shifefusa knives that they sell

Some info of this shop can be found here in my blog, although the information here is outdated.

Anyway, have a nice trip to my country!

[Blether]

Website showing the Shifefusa knives that they sell

Go for the naguri - useful for nuts of all sizes...