Good, Cheap/Inexpensive Knives

[HKDave]

Anybody like bird's beak paring knives? I've never use one.

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Bird's beak knives are mostly used for carving tournee vegetables. Unless you're in culinary school or working prep in an old-school white-tablecloth restaurant, you won't need one. They're not a substitute for a regular paring knife.

I agree with most of what's been said upthread. I personally use a 10" chef's, 4" paring and 9.5" offset slicer, all Victorinox (=Forschner). I'd never take a $100 knife to work. Expensive knives are for impressing guests at home, not for working prep.

I've also used and liked the stamped-blade-and-molded-handle knives by Sanelli and Messermeister - Sanelli's handles are very nice, as is their santoku; and I like the shape of the blade on Messermeister's chefs knife. Any of these will do a fine job, and they're all cheap.

There's one exception I'd make to the 'never buy a set of knives' rule: go to the bookstore of your local vocational college and check out the knife kit they sell for their culinary program. In most cases it will be one of the brands mentioned above, and the selection will usually be useful, and the price will be less than at a yuppie kitchen store. They'll often also sell individual knives.

[Sencha]

I, for one, have never had much luck with really cheap knives. Like someone upthread, I have to say I really don't prefer Chicago Cutlery either. I have used some of their knives (in someone else's kitchen), and to say the least, was far from impressed.

I think it's better to just go out and buy a decent knife. Even a Wusthof or Henckels is better than a lot of the other cheaper knives. Anything better is likely going to reflect in price. Besides, usually, most people don't treat knives as a disposable item, like plastic-ware or paper plates. A knife should last a bit of time (although, how long depends on various factors). Most people shouldn't need to replace it for some time.

Of course, everyone must go with their own personal preferences when it comes to picking a knife, and just because one person will recommend one thing doesn't necessarily mean everyone else will like it too. This also applies to the types of knives people prefer to keep around for normal use in the kitchen.

For example, some people use a paring knife to peel vegetables. I, on the other hand, don't care for paring knives, unless it's for small decorative cuts (and even then, I may not use it), instead, opting to use whichever normal size knife (7-10in?) I have in hand. Why? It's just comfortable for me. Each person must decide based on what is best for them.

Some people love to use a 10 inch blade, but others find it cumbersome. Some prefer a thick blade to a thin one. Others like particular shapes (for example: santoku vs. 8in. chef knife).

And then there are those who are knife nuts (which, actually, isn't a bad thing at all ), and will spend more money to get exactly what they want, but that probably doesn't belong in the "cheap knife" thread.

[coquus]

I'm living in the town where they are made, and I pretty much can get any of those knives for like $20 from people at the factory.  They are so bad I wouldn't even pay that, even though I could walk there if they break or get dull or what have you.

I don't think it's been said, but the other knife you need to have is a meat slicer, a chef's knife will work in a pinch, but a good slicer is nice for lots of tasks such as slicing meat and skinning fish.  That brings the total to six knives by my count.  Cheap Paring, Nice Slicing, Decent Bread, Cheap&Decent Cleaver for bones, Decent Boning, Nice Chef's.  Doubt anybody sells a set of those.

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The town where Cutco is made that is. I'm not sure if that came across, I was reviewing the thread and I didn't think that it did. Anyhow, back to the conversation at hand.

[johnsmith45678]

Can anybody explain why Global seems to have become so popular? I guess the one-piece design is appealing (no wood/etc. to come loose).

[mrsadm]

Bolsters are evil? I like bolsters! More to grab onto when you're dicing.

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Yes, more to grab onto, but when you are sharpening your knife, they really get in the way. I would say "annoying when sharpening" rather than evil.

Then again (as someone referred to) the "williams sonoma" crowd may not all sharpen their own knives at home. I find it very rewarding to be able to sharpen my knives, I have control and know what I'm doing, and some knife sharpening places can actually ruin your knife.

Ref. the observation that Global knives are so popular - maybe really good marketing? I was recently in Kitchen shops in Paris and the only Japanese knife they were selling was Global.

[johnsmith45678]

How do you sharpen your own knives? We had a stone at one place I worked, but it sucked compared to having the knives professionally sharpened. AFAIK, the pros use grinder wheels, stones, steels, etc. I think the local King Soopers (Kroger) will sharpen knives for $5/set.

[chefdavid321]

When I first bought my global knife in England in 1996, I thought it was the best knife ever. I almost entirely gave up European blades. I used it for years, but then I worked in a really, really upscale kitchen and I found out quickly that I could never get my global sharp enough to do the intricate work that I needed. I sharpened it for hours to no avail, but my chives were still bruised and my cucumber brunoise was still not exactly right. What I really needed was a true Japanese blade. Most of the chefs were using Mac knives and so I bought one. I was hooked, but decided to go one better and I bought a Misono UX-10 Gyuto and a good stone. I had a stone for my carbon steel sushi knife (which chips), but got a medium/fine stone combo. I am beyond happy, and can shave with my knife, it is a breeze to sharpen, and doesn't chip. I love it. It also cost me over $200.00.

I recently worked with a master sushi chef who used a Nenox knife that I have been dreaming of, but it costs a ton. He and his Sous both agreed and said that if you can afford a knife that costs, say $50.00, then save your money until you can buy a Nenox knife. It sharpens easily, stays sharp, and is just plain fantastic. I have to agree. I love my Misono, though.

There are some things to consider, though. Are you going to sharpen it on a regular basis? I sharpen mine almost every other day. Are you going to take care of it and protect it? Never throw your knives in a drawer. Having a very good Japanese blade is like driving a Ferrari compared to a tank or a torn up coupe held together with chewing gum and duct tape.

If you don't want the responsibility or the expense, I often recommend to students that they go to a restaurant supply store, get a $30.00 Dexter Russel chef knife, and a sharpening tool of some sort (not a steel, although that is important too). Sure, stick it in the dishwasher, and in a year or three, give the thing to goodwill and hopefully you have saved money to buy a good Japanese gyuto.

Good luck, and yes, I am a knife nut. I think I started in this business because I could play with fire and knives.

[FistFullaRoux]

KichenAid makes a very usable Santoku. I've found them at WalMart and Publix for less than $20. Forged steel, decent handle, and practically disposable at that price. Bed Bath and Beyond often runs sales on Henkels and Whustoffs. Most home cooks will do just fine with those brands. If you are a pro, they could make a good backup set as well.

Although my favorite knife until I upgraded to Whustoff recently was an 8" chef's knife bought through Pampered Chef of all places. Worked fine for me. I think it was less than $30 IIRC.

Don't forget to look for discontinued and clearance items. I've scored some good stuff that way. Usually at Sears or JC Penny, who have to get rid of the old merchandise.

Anyone know of a cutlery outlet store anywhere?

[mrsadm]

How do you sharpen your own knives? We had a stone at one place I worked, but it sucked compared to having the knives professionally sharpened. AFAIK, the pros use grinder wheels, stones, steels, etc. I think the local King Soopers (Kroger) will sharpen knives for $5/set.

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Good question! I happen to have taken the "knife skills" class at the CIA in Hyde Park which was my first introduction to sharpening knives. The chef/professor looked at one student's chef knife and told him it was ruined, throw it away. Some sharpening services do not know how to do cutlery. Bench grinders are meant for wood chisels and perhaps hunting knives, but not for cutlery.

If you find a really knowledgeable place - like "Kitchen Drawer" in Hyde Park - they can get a very good edge with a grinding wheel. But not any jerk can use a grinding wheel with your knife. It takes some knowledge of steel types, bevel angles, and so on.

Further, Japanese knives should really be sharpened on a water stone, not a regular stone which is good for the German knives. They should be honed on a ceramic steel, not a metal one.

I started by sharpening an old German knife on a Shapton stone (course and fine grit) and a cheapie e-bay Japanese knife on a water stone. I made quite a few scratches on those two knives but the practice was invaluable. Now I can really put a great sharp edge on my knives.

If you use an appliance like "Chef's Choice" knife sharpener, your knives will get sharper. However, they really grind away at the knife edge and before long, your knife will look like a pencil.

Sorry if this is getting off topic, I just wanted to answer the question.

[Chad]

How do you sharpen your own knives? We had a stone at one place I worked, but it sucked compared to having the knives professionally sharpened. AFAIK, the pros use grinder wheels, stones, steels, etc. I think the local King Soopers (Kroger) will sharpen knives for $5/set.

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Well, you could start with the eGullet Knife Maintenance & Sharpening tutorial. It's a pretty good introduction to sharpening your knives yourself -- and keeping them sharp in between sharpenings.

Finding someone else to sharpen your knives is like finding someone to cut your hair -- you can go through a lot of expensive mistakes before finding the right person. A real pro may or may not use a grinder. The really good ones will fix edge chips and major damage with a wet-wheel grinder or belt sander but do the actual edge by hand.

If you don't have a place locally that specializes in kitchen knives, you might consider mail order sharpening. Dave Martell at D&R Sharpening in Philadelphia is truly excellent as is Bob Kramer at Kramer Knives in Olympia, Washington. You can't go wrong with either one and both are reasonably priced.

Take care,

Chad

[johnsmith45678]

I saw some Chicago Cutlery knives at Walmart today that had non-stick coating on the blades - same as in pans. Never saw that on knives before. Plus they had scallops (is that what those dimples are called? For some reason I thought they were called gratins or something.) Wow. I've never been bothered by food sticking to my knife.

[mrsadm]

I saw some Chicago Cutlery knives at Walmart today that had non-stick coating on the blades - same as in pans. Never saw that on knives before. Plus they had scallops (is that what those dimples are called? For some reason I thought they were called gratins or something.) Wow. I've never been bothered by food sticking to my knife.

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Good grief, are you serious? Un-believable! Was the non-stick coating black like in pans? Hmmm, black non-stick dimpled knives, sounds hideous!

Some people refer to the dimpled knife as having a granton edge, but I don't believe that is correct. They dimples are called "kullens". I'm sure Chad will weigh in if I'm incorrect.

[Chad]

Some people refer to the dimpled knife as having a granton edge, but I don't believe that is correct.  They dimples are called "kullens".  I'm sure Chad will weigh in if I'm incorrect.

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<Ed McMahon voice> You are correct, sir! </Ed McMahon voice>

Yup, the hollows ground into the side of the blade are called kullens. They reduce the contact surface of the knife and, theoretically, keep foods from sticking. In practice the effect is largely negligible. Wet, dense fruits & veggies (think potatoes or apples) may peel off the side of the blade a little easier, but in side by side testing on chef's knives and santokus I can't really tell if the dimpled knife is actually performing a little better or I just want it to. The scallops do help on ham/roast slicers.

Interestingly, ham/roast slicers are actually closer to a true Granton edge. If you do a side by side comparison you can see that the kullens go almost all the way down to the edge on the slicer whereas they stop 1/8" short on the chef's knife or santoku.

A true Granton edge is a very different beast altogether. The hollows/scallops not only go all the way down into the edge, they also alternate from side to side on the blade giving a nearly serrated effect.

If you want to get really freaky and take the kullen concept to the extreme, try a Glestain knife. I have one coming for testing, but I've read reports that the mutitude of scallops actually does work. Should be fun.

Take care,

Chad

[johnsmith45678]

I saw some Chicago Cutlery knives at Walmart today that had non-stick coating on the blades - same as in pans. Never saw that on knives before. Plus they had scallops (is that what those dimples are called? For some reason I thought they were called gratins or something.) Wow. I've never been bothered by food sticking to my knife.

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Good grief, are you serious? Un-believable! Was the non-stick coating black like in pans? Hmmm, black non-stick dimpled knives, sounds hideous!

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Yep! Same dark grey color. They really stood out.

[joiei]

The term for the scalloped edge on knives is granton.

a nonstick coated knife? Why? You aren't cooking on it. And the first time you go to sharpen it, it's gone. Why?

[jayt90]

In a weak moment, I bought a marked-down fancy cork puller. It's dead EZ to use, but a contrivance that I stored in a drawer pretty quickly. The worm is non-stick and the directions clearly state that it will wear out, hence a replacement corkscrew is included, and available by post.

A knife with this treatment will start to wear as soon as the food piles up on the edge. When it is worn out the knife won't perform as designed, and will have to be tossed out. And all that plastic on the edge will have ended up in the food.

[mrsadm]

Some people refer to the dimpled knife as having a granton edge, but I don't believe that is correct.  They dimples are called "kullens".  I'm sure Chad will weigh in if I'm incorrect.

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<Ed McMahon voice> You are correct, sir! </Ed McMahon voice>

Yup, the hollows ground into the side of the blade are called kullens. They reduce the contact surface of the knife and, theoretically, keep foods from sticking. In practice the effect is largely negligible. Wet, dense fruits & veggies (think potatoes or apples) may peel off the side of the blade a little easier, but in side by side testing on chef's knives and santokus I can't really tell if the dimpled knife is actually performing a little better or I just want it to. The scallops do help on ham/roast slicers.

Interestingly, ham/roast slicers are actually closer to a true Granton edge. If you do a side by side comparison you can see that the kullens go almost all the way down to the edge on the slicer whereas they stop 1/8" short on the chef's knife or santoku.

A true Granton edge is a very different beast altogether. The hollows/scallops not only go all the way down into the edge, they also alternate from side to side on the blade giving a nearly serrated effect.

If you want to get really freaky and take the kullen concept to the extreme, try a Glestain knife. I have one coming for testing, but I've read reports that the mutitude of scallops actually does work. Should be fun.

Take care,

Chad

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So Chad, when and where can we read your Glestain review?

[H. du Bois]

I couldn't be more thrilled that this thread is here, at a time when I'm debating which knife/knives to buy - even though it isn't my thread! Thank you, all of you for your thoughtful input - I'm receiving an education.

Thanks too, Octaveman, for suggesting ebay as a means of getting rid of the metallic abominations (Cutco) that were given me. Sad thing is, the gift-givers meant well, and truly believed them to be the best. For price tags like that, they ought to have been.

[mrsadm]

I couldn't be more thrilled that this thread is here, at a time when I'm debating which knife/knives to buy - even though it isn't my thread!  Thank you, all of you for your thoughtful input - I'm receiving an education.

Thanks too, Octaveman, for suggesting ebay as a means of getting rid of the metallic abominations (Cutco) that were given me.  Sad thing is, the gift-givers meant well, and truly believed them to be the best.  For price tags like that, they ought to have been.

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For even more education, and a good place to ask questions, check out the older posts at this forum:

http://216.91.137.210/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=6

This is a cutlery forum where most of the members are extremely knowledgeable about knives, Japanese knives, in particular.

[SWISS_CHEF]

I'm a bit of a knife buff :

My first suggestion is to look on e-bay for used knives. I have also found lots of good knives at estate sales. Usually they are dirt cheap because everyone is there for the antiques.

The best cheap new knives I have seen came from Ikea. Full-forged, solid and well balanced and finished better than my Wüsthofs. I have had these two for five of six years now. The version you get today is slightly different but they look to be just as solid.

I can't remember what I paid but they were very cheap. A 20 cm chef's knife is something like $20.

[ojisan]

Chad, Octaveman, et al -

I'm about to buy a gyuto, 240mm - either a Tojiro DP or a Hiromoto HC. Aside from the extra attention to wiping down the carbon Hiromoto to prevent rust, is there any advantage to one or the other? I'm OK w/ a patina/tarnish on a carbon blade, and as I will be using this knife as my main go-to, it will be in daily (home kitchen) use, and not languish in a drawer. Will the HC be sharper, or hold the edge longer etc.?

Also, I will be maintaining my knives with an EdgePro Apex - so what angles would you recommend? And are the factory angles symmetrical?

thanks

Phil

[Octaveman]

Phil, honestly either one would work well. Since patina is no problem for you, I would wholeheartedly recommend the HC because 1) the steel on that knife is really good; 2) the fit & finish is remarkedly better than the DP and 3) the scales of the handle are more rounded making it more comfortable to hold.

Carbon steel will outperform stainless anyday and HC's carbon is pure Japanese carbon and it will also hold a great edge. When I sharpen my HC, I get a screaming edge that makes it fun to sharpen...and use! The fit and finish is loads better in that there are smooth transitions between the scales and the tang, no gaps and surprisingly good finish in this price range. I can't remember exactly what the original bevels on the HC were but they were definately assymentrical...maybe 70/30 or 80/20. You can easily change that to your liking with a little work on your EdgePro. I personally don't mind assymetrical so I've kept them as is. I use whetstones so I'm not sure where the bevels are now but they are a tad bit thinner than factory and it's still holding up well.

The DP is a good knife but the HC is a better knife and I recommend it without reservation.

Cheers,

Bob

Edited May 23, 2006 by Octaveman (log)

[johnsmith45678]

Would health inspectors have a problem with knives with patinas? I thought I read a while ago that they might.

[Octaveman]

The patina on a knife is not what the issue is with working with carbon. Some food will discolor when a carbon knife is used and nobody wants to look at discolored food on their plate. Artichokes, avocado's, onions are a few examples. The patina is a natural reaction to the food that it touches and once it gets formed it will reduce and eventually eliminate that food discoloration. I'm not 100% sure about health inspectors having problems with carbon knives being used. I've read it will depend on the inspector or the district they're in. I know many chefs that use carbon knives at work with no problems so I can only assume it's acceptable.

[ojisan]

...  The patina is a natural reaction to the food that it touches and once it gets formed it will reduce and eventually eliminate that food discoloration....

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Is there a recommended way to induce the patina? And will it actually eliminate the food reaction?

p.s. - I have ordered the Hirotomo HC 240mm gyuto from Koki @ jcf. And the Tojiro honesuki.