Michelin NYC 2008 Rankings Announced

[ulterior epicure]

I'd say Jewel Bako was there because it had more elegant, western-style service,...

Um, yeah, I didn't get that on my last visit... nothing much more than Sushi Yasuda, if at all. Perhaps a tad more Western, but certainly not anything 1 star level worthy.

Also, if Manresa, Chez Panisse and The French Laundry make it within the purview of "San Francisco" for the Michelin Guide Rouge, I can't imagine why Blue Hill at Stone Barns wouldn't make it within the purview of "New York City." If it is (within the purview of NYC), then I can't imagine why it hasn't made at least a 1, if not 2 star appearance.

[ulterior epicure]

Anthos... would I be mistaken in noting that it is the first Greek restaurant in the U.S (or, NYC at the very least) to get a Michelin star?

Also, I see that the only Indian restaurant, Devi, is on the 1 star list. I thought that I heard it had (or will?) close.

[AvsKick21]

Anthos... would I be mistaken in noting that it is the first Greek restaurant in the U.S (or, NYC at the very least) to get a Michelin star?

Also, I see that the only Indian restaurant, Devi, is on the 1 star list.  I thought that I heard it had (or will?) close.

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Devi closed in the summer because of a labor dispute between the staff and the owner. The chefs bought the restaurant back and will reopen soon according to Eater. I would imagine that the ratings were more or less finalized before it closed though, as that happened in late August or September.

Edited October 10, 2007 by AvsKick21 (log)

[tupac17616]

Also, if Manresa, Chez Panisse and The French Laundry make it within the purview of "San Francisco" for the Michelin Guide Rouge, I can't imagine why Blue Hill at Stone Barns wouldn't make it within the purview of "New York City."  If it is (within the purview of NYC), then I can't imagine why it hasn't made at least a 1, if not 2 star appearance.

Agreed.

And why, oh why, must EMP get shafted again?

[Simon_S]

And why, oh why, must EMP get shafted again? 

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It seems to be one of the Michelin rules: leave an obviously starworthy restaurant starless for as long as possible to generate interest every year and keep people talking.

[ulterior epicure]

And why, oh why, must EMP get shafted again? 

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It seems to be one of the Michelin rules: leave an obviously starworthy restaurant starless for as long as possible to generate interest every year and keep people talking.

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I'm curious - name an example (other than EMP)?

[oakapple]

And why, oh why, must EMP get shafted again? 

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It seems to be one of the Michelin rules: leave an obviously starworthy restaurant starless for as long as possible to generate interest every year and keep people talking.

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That's nonsense. It's just a reasonable disagreement. Remember, Bruni got EMP right, but totally dropped the ball on The Modern. Any such list, no matter who compiles it, is going to include a few restaurants you disagree with, and omit a few that you belive should be there. If Bruni (or Steven Shaw, or Nathan, or Adam Platt) were given a similar assignment, they'd make different errors—but errors nevertheless.

[Simon_S]

I'm curious - name an example (other than EMP)?

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I'm thinking specifically of an example in the local (Dublin) market. A restaurant called Chapter One was considered by critics and punters alike to be worthy for years and years, before Michelin finally relented in the most recent edition. Its place as the unrecognised has now been taken by Mint, although I must admit that might be more controversial. Typically, by the time Chapter One got the nod, I felt it might have jumped the shark, but I haven't eaten there often enough to decide for sure.

[Simon_S]

In the interests of clarity, it was a *slightly* tongue-in-cheek comment.

[Nathan]

Both Bruni and Michelin have their paradigms . I do think, however, that Michelin values culinary creativity much more than Bruni - at least that is the impression I get from reading Bruni. Bruno is conservative when it comes to food even if he is somewhat populist when it comes to non-directly food related aspects of dining. Perhaps someone more familiar with him and his ouvre might have a different impression, but that is what I get.

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Yeah, that's my sense as well. Michelin obviously doesn't look outside their service model, but their rankings reflect a wider variety of food tastes. Bruni is only one man with one perspective- and it's not one of culinary adventurousness.

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when it comes to avant garde food, yes. but he's much friendlier to Asian food than Michelin. have we become so jaded that that's seen as "conservative"? some people on this forum had real issues with the two stars he gave to Sripaphai. that's "conservative"

[oakapple]

Bruni is conservative when it comes to food even if he is somewhat populist when it comes to non-directly food related aspects of dining.

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Yeah, that's my sense as well. Michelin obviously doesn't look outside their service model, but their rankings reflect a wider variety of food tastes. Bruni is only one man with one perspective- and it's not one of culinary adventurousness.

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Bruni's rather tame and limited dining tastes have been much noted.

Bruni and Michelin are both somewhat tied to the same "service model." Whether that's a bug or a feature is open to question. All of Bruni's four-star choices and most of his three-star choices have fairly traditional service models. He is much looser about it when he gets to the two-star level, but so is Michelin with their stars to places like Spotted Pig and Peter Luger. Whether those places deserve their stars is a whole other matter, but they're clearly not bastions of traditional French-style service. If anything, the star for Spotted Pig is much more remarkable than anything Bruni has done, given that winning a Michelin star is a more difficult thing to accomplish.

But he's much friendlier to Asian food than Michelin.  have we become so jaded that that's seen as "conservative"?

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I'm not so sure the praise for Bruni's Asian-friendliness is warranted. As best I can recall, no Asian restaurant has won three stars from him. He's given two stars to a couple of Asian restaurants in Queens that broke the traditional mold. Aside from that, he reviews what comes along, with the only clearly favored formats being Italian and steakhouses.

[ulterior epicure]

But he's much friendlier to Asian food than Michelin.  have we become so jaded that that's seen as "conservative"?

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I'm not so sure the praise for Bruni's Asian-friendliness is warranted. As best I can recall, no Asian restaurant has won three stars from him.

Right, but are any even arguably close to deserving? Friendliness is one thing, but outrageous (gratuitous?) star-doling is another...

[docsconz]

But he's much friendlier to Asian food than Michelin.  have we become so jaded that that's seen as "conservative"?

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I'm not so sure the praise for Bruni's Asian-friendliness is warranted. As best I can recall, no Asian restaurant has won three stars from him.

Right, but are any even arguably close to deserving? Friendliness is one thing, but outrageous (gratuitous?) star-doling is another...

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What would Masa be considered? Bruni gave it 4 stars. That is actually higher than their Average Reader Rating, currently at 3.79 stars after 19 votes.

[ulterior epicure]

But he's much friendlier to Asian food than Michelin.  have we become so jaded that that's seen as "conservative"?

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I'm not so sure the praise for Bruni's Asian-friendliness is warranted. As best I can recall, no Asian restaurant has won three stars from him.

Right, but are any even arguably close to deserving? Friendliness is one thing, but outrageous (gratuitous?) star-doling is another...

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What would Masa be considered? Bruni gave it 4 stars. That is actually higher than their Average Reader Rating, currently at 3.79 stars after 19 votes.

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Bingo! Yes, Masa counts in my book as an Asian restaurant...

[oakapple]

But he's much friendlier to Asian food than Michelin.  have we become so jaded that that's seen as "conservative"?

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I'm not so sure the praise for Bruni's Asian-friendliness is warranted. As best I can recall, no Asian restaurant has won three stars from him.

Right, but are any even arguably close to deserving? Friendliness is one thing, but outrageous (gratuitous?) star-doling is another...

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If a critic is overly friendly to Asian restaurants, then a generous allocation of stars is what you'd expect. Bruni has not done that. (Some people thought that Dévi was a three-star NYT candidate, by the way; Bruni awarded two.)

Meanwhile, Michelin awarded stars to six Asian restaurants (counting Dévi) out of 40 starred restaurants in total. That's 15%, which is not a bad figure. I doubt that Bruni's percentage is significantly higher than that. Whether they starred the right ones is a whole other question.

Edited October 10, 2007 by oakapple (log)

[oakapple]

What would Masa be considered? Bruni gave it 4 stars. That is actually higher than their Average Reader Rating, currently at 3.79 stars after 19 votes.

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Yes, but one review in 3½ years on the job doesn't establish him as being overly friendly to that genre.

(My original comment was that Bruni has not awarded three stars to any Asian restaurant; he did indeed award four to Masa.)

Edited October 10, 2007 by oakapple (log)

[docsconz]

What would Masa be considered? Bruni gave it 4 stars. That is actually higher than their Average Reader Rating, currently at 3.79 stars after 19 votes.

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Yes, but one review in 3½ years on the job doesn't establish him as being overly friendly to that genre.

(My original comment was that Bruni has not awarded three stars to any Asian restaurant; he did indeed award four to Masa.)

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I didn't say that he was overly friendly to Asian restaurants. I don't believe that he is. Technically you did say three stars, however, I pointed out an Asian restaurant in the even more difficult 4 star realm which means that he doesn't dismiss them out of hand either.

[Nathan]

I suppose sushi is now so mainstream that it almost doesn't count as "Asian"...but anyway...

he's certainly two-starred plenty in the sushi, kaiseki, fusion mode....and a Chinatown seafood restaurant. but that's predictable enough.

but the goalposts have really moved from a couple years ago if his two-starring a couple drab storefronts in Queens with challenging, spicy, unfamiliar food served without real wine lists or other accoutrements of fine dining can be deemed as "conservative". the Sripaphai review was astounding at the time.

as for the Italian and steakhouse point...that's simply a reflection of which restaurants have opened in the past couple years. that's the trend du jour. a couple years ago Bruni was reviewing a crapload of Asian fusion restaurants.

[docsconz]

But he's much friendlier to Asian food than Michelin.  have we become so jaded that that's seen as "conservative"?

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I'm not so sure the praise for Bruni's Asian-friendliness is warranted. As best I can recall, no Asian restaurant has won three stars from him.

Right, but are any even arguably close to deserving? Friendliness is one thing, but outrageous (gratuitous?) star-doling is another...

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If a critic is overly friendly to Asian restaurants, then a generous allocation of stars is what you'd expect. Bruni has not done that. (Some people thought that Dévi was a three-star NYT candidate, by the way; Bruni awarded two.)

Meanwhile, Michelin awarded stars to six Asian restaurants (counting Dévi) out of 40 starred restaurants in total. That's 15%, which is not a bad figure. I doubt that Bruni's percentage is significantly higher than that. Whether they starred the right ones is a whole other question.

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The situation and question with Michelin is not so much that they gave 15% of their stars to Asian restaurants, but which ones they gave them to - especially in the Japanese category. Besides if they didn't give stars to Asian restaurants in NY they would have missed completely much of the best food in the city. Twenty to thirty years ago Asian cuisine outside of its own ethnic circles was known to the cognoscenti but still fairly cutting edge. Today, it is ubiquitous and conservative to the point that sushi is a mainstay at sports arenas like Madison Square Garden and the upcoming Citi Field. It has become part of the very culinary fabric of NYC.

[oakapple]

The situation and question with Michelin is not so much that they gave 15% of their stars to Asian restaurants, but which ones they gave them to - especially in the Japanese category.

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There's clearly a lack of transparency as to what the stars mean, and how they are awarded. But even without transparency, it's pretty clear they're putting restaurants into "classes," and rating them against similar establishments. That Dressler and The Modern are both at one star can be explained no other way.

Frank Bruni does the same; otherwise, the two stars he awarded to both The Little Owl and Le Cirque could not be rationally comprehended. That's just a feature of the system. Whether you think it's a good system or not, those are the rules.

Now, if the Michelin folks are putting Jewel Bako, Yasuda and Kuruma in the same class, with JB and Kuruma as the overall best, then that's looney. But it's possible they consider Yasuda and Kuruma to be in the same class (with Kuruma the better of the two), and JB in a different class, which is a defensible way of thinking about them. I realize that some people don't think JB is the best in any class, but it is at least a way of understanding how a sentient being could have come up with these ratings without believing they are complete idiots.

But a lot of people get stuck on this point. The first year the book came out, Mario Batali complained that Babbo and The Spotted Pig both got one star. Bear in mind, Batali is an investor in The Spotted Pig, so he's clearly got nothing against the restaurant. Obviously, the inspectors were putting those two establishments in different classes; they weren't suggesting that the two restaurants are equal. Funnily enough, Batali had no complaints the second year, when Del Posto got a deuce.

Edited October 10, 2007 by oakapple (log)

[oakapple]

I suppose sushi is now so mainstream that it almost doesn't count as "Asian"...but anyway...

That's nonsense. Ravioli will remain Italian, no matter how mainstream it is.

but the goalposts have really moved from a couple years ago if his two-starring a couple drab storefronts in Queens with challenging, spicy, unfamiliar food served without real wine lists or other accoutrements of fine dining can be deemed as "conservative".  the Sripaphai review was astounding at the time.

Bruni has boldly stretched the definition of two-star dining, and I agree with you that this is adventurous on his part, not conservative. I would say that Bruni's tastes are limited, not that they're conservative.

as for the Italian and steakhouse point...that's simply a reflection of which restaurants have opened in the past couple years.  that's the trend du jour.  a couple years ago Bruni was reviewing a crapload of Asian fusion restaurants.

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This is, perhaps, a topic for the Bruni thread, but I think there's ample evidence of a selection bias on Bruni's part. And it's also particularly evident, not just in what he reviews, but the ratings he gives. If you're saying that you cannot detect that he has any particular preference for Italian restaurants, then we're definitely not speaking the same language.

[Nathan]

The situation and question with Michelin is not so much that they gave 15% of their stars to Asian restaurants, but which ones they gave them to - especially in the Japanese category.

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Frank Bruni does the same; otherwise, the two stars he awarded to both The Little Owl and Le Cirque could not be rationally comprehended. That's just a feature of the system. Whether you think it's a good system or not, those are the rules.

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that's one possible explanation. it's not the only one. we could take Bruni and the Times at their word -- which gives us a mix of food, atmosphere, service and price.

looked at that way, if a reviewer believes that Le Cirque has 25% better food than Little Owl, 25% better service, 50% better atmosphere and 200% higher prices....then, depending upon the relative weights given to these factors, one could end up with LC lower ranked than LO, higher ranked or ranked the same...even when directly compared with one another. no need for classes.

and I think that's (roughly speaking) exactly how Bruni rates restaurants.

[Nathan]

I suppose sushi is now so mainstream that it almost doesn't count as "Asian"...but anyway...

That's nonsense. Ravioli will remain Italian, no matter how mainstream it is.

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you're taking that literally. the intended point was that your omission of Masa was understandable.

I agree that Bruni has a predilection for Italian cuisine(s).

I tend to think that the number of steakhouse reviews (with disparate ratings) simply reflects how many have opened in the last couple years. (which arguably necessitated the Luger rereview as well.)

[oakapple]

that's one possible explanation.  it's not the only one.  we could take Bruni and the Times at their word -- which gives us a mix of food, atmosphere, service and price.

looked at that way, if a reviewer believes that Le Cirque has 25% better food than Little Owl, 25% better service, 50% better atmosphere and 200% higher prices....then, depending upon the relative weights given to these factors, one could end up with LC lower ranked than LO, higher ranked or ranked the same...even when directly compared with one another.  no need for classes.

and I think that's (roughly speaking) exactly how Bruni rates restaurants.

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Bruni has never said he does that, and it would be a most peculiar way of going about it. I'm not going to assume that Bruni does something as inane as that until he says so.

Obviously there are significant issues with the NYT and Michelin rating definitions, in relation to the reality. The Times says two stars means "very good," but you read some two-star reviews that sound terrible. Michelin says that two stars are "worth a detour," but what does that mean when all the restaurants in the book are within a few miles of each other?

[Nathan]

the official NY Times guidelines say that that's exactly what they do. nothing about "classes"....

and it's not inane...it's exactly how I rate and distinguish restaurants personally.