Drink sweet, talk dry

[Rebel Rose]

"Drink sweet, talk dry," used to be a wine marketing catchphrase in the '70s and '80s for all the people that sucked up major national brands that they perceived to have cachet as "dry, elegant" wines, when in fact those brands had significant doses of residual sugar.

Then, for awhile, the marketplace really did become a little more sophisticated and winemakers began to play with truly elegant wines.

Now, I'm afraid the market may be swinging back the other way. People talk incessantly about the preponderance of high alcohol wines these days, but no one complains about the residual sugar needed to balance the alcohol in these wines, and these wines have no problem selling out--indeed there are long and serious waiting lists for some of them.

I think . . . you like the sugar.

[JohnL]

"Drink sweet and talk dry"

Yeeeow!

I have never seen an industry that developed and relied upon so much conventional wisdom.

There is measurable sweetness and there is percieved sweetness in wine.

I think that what is important is what consumers perceive. I also would suggest that maybe this issue is not about sweetness but rather mouthfeel--a roundness and softness/suppleness in a wine.

If people reallty had a sweet tooth/palate then German Riesling would be selling like hotcakes!

Edited May 25, 2007 by JohnL (log)

[Rebel Rose]

John, the issue is not about selling 'sweet' wine. The difficulty is that a large number of intermediate market consumers think they want dry, elegant wines, when in fact, what they really want are wines with powerful characteristics and some residual sugar to soften and round them out.

I think that what is important is what consumers perceive. I also would suggest that maybe this issue is not about sweetness but rather mouthfeel--a roundness and softness/suppleness in a wine.

This is closer to what I was hoping to discuss. Certain levels of sugar make a wine seem fatter, rounder, and the sugar reduces alcohol 'burn' in high level wines. Sometimes, as in the case of Amarone for example, a high-alcohol wine with carefully managed sugar levels will mature beautifully. But frequently, the monster wines that seem initially to be blockbusters--full of flavor, and zing-bam-pow characteristics--are just going to get tired in the cellar.

So what I'm really asking is, does anyone else see this trend? It isn't so much a trend toward higher alcohols as it is a trend toward wines that make a bigger splash in the pool.

I think the 'high alcohol' argument that goes around and around may actually be a red herring. And if this forum has the aware, articulate posters I believe it does, this would be a good place to carry on a cutting edge discussion.

[JohnL]

I think you are on to something Mary.

I believe that the wine press and some critics have made alcohol levels the issue.

Most of these people are comparing new world wines to French wines. Different climates and different wines.

I have always believed (as I think you do) that the real issue is mouthfeel.

The truth is alcohol levels are difficult even for trained tasters to sense let alone most consumers.

[Don Giovanni]

Mary,

I always say this same thing...people talk dry and drunk sweet...example so what kind of wine do you like...? We drink dry...only dry...ok these are our dry wines...first sip yuck that's bitter...then I pull out the 5% RS...now that's what I call a good dry wine...yes then try this white merlot now that's the one...ok 7%RS ...we will take 3 bottles...clueless and happy they leave...because they are dry wine drinkers...

[Florida Jim]

People talk incessantly about the preponderance of high alcohol wines these days, but no one complains about the residual sugar needed to balance the alcohol in these wines, . . .

I don't know Mary; I always thought that alcohol was perceived as sweetness when tasting a wine (as well as its textural attributes). I don't think leaving RS behind would "balance out" the alcohol but rather amplify it (both texturally and in sweet taste).

Best, Jim

[Rebel Rose]

Alcohol does contribute to a perception of sweetness. I should have been more precise, however . . . California to Washington, winemakers working with zin and syrah will frequently leave some R.S. in the wine to balance it. This practice is not as common with pinot or cab.

[docsconz]

I don't really look for or care what the level of RS is in a wine so long a it is balanced. I do, in fact, enjoy a good German riesling every now and again so long as it is balanced by acidity. I despise wines that are overtly and cloyingly sweet, though. I do like a good amarone and yes that has definite sweetness on the palate too, but a good one is balanced as well. OTOH, I also like a good chianti classico and those tend to be less sweet on the palate. Just give me a well balanced wine and depending on what I am having it with I am generally happy.

[Craig Camp]

People talk incessantly about the preponderance of high alcohol wines these days, but no one complains about the residual sugar needed to balance the alcohol in these wines, . . .

I don't know Mary; I always thought that alcohol was perceived as sweetness when tasting a wine (as well as its textural attributes). I don't think leaving RS behind would "balance out" the alcohol but rather amplify it (both texturally and in sweet taste).

Best, Jim

←

True to a point. But at high enough levels that sweetness is overwhelmed by heat in the finish. Higher levels of RS offset some of that heat.

[Florida Jim]

People talk incessantly about the preponderance of high alcohol wines these days, but no one complains about the residual sugar needed to balance the alcohol in these wines, . . .

I don't know Mary; I always thought that alcohol was perceived as sweetness when tasting a wine (as well as its textural attributes). I don't think leaving RS behind would "balance out" the alcohol but rather amplify it (both texturally and in sweet taste).

Best, Jim

←

True to a point. But at high enough levels that sweetness is overwhelmed by heat in the finish. Higher levels of RS offset some of that heat.

←

Craig,

How high would it have to be before the RS is helpful? Or is that a variety by variety thing?

Best, Jim

[Craig Camp]

People talk incessantly about the preponderance of high alcohol wines these days, but no one complains about the residual sugar needed to balance the alcohol in these wines, . . .

I don't know Mary; I always thought that alcohol was perceived as sweetness when tasting a wine (as well as its textural attributes). I don't think leaving RS behind would "balance out" the alcohol but rather amplify it (both texturally and in sweet taste).

Best, Jim

←

True to a point. But at high enough levels that sweetness is overwhelmed by heat in the finish. Higher levels of RS offset some of that heat.

←

Craig,

How high would it have to be before the RS is helpful? Or is that a variety by variety thing?

Best, Jim

←

I see it as not only variety, but vintage by vintage. Balancing of all these facets is specific to the individual wine. I think you would be hard pressed to find a wine over 14.5% that seems in balance where there is not RS there to counter the alcohol. For some wines it's lower than that, for some higher. You just have to taste to taste each wine to decide.

[Brad Ballinger]

People talk incessantly about the preponderance of high alcohol wines these days, but no one complains about the residual sugar needed to balance the alcohol in these wines, and these wines have no problem selling out--indeed there are long and serious waiting lists for some of them.

I think . . . you like the sugar.

←

Nope. As mentioned by others above, I want the balance.

[Don Giovanni]

People talk incessantly about the preponderance of high alcohol wines these days, but no one complains about the residual sugar needed to balance the alcohol in these wines, and these wines have no problem selling out--indeed there are long and serious waiting lists for some of them.

I think . . . you like the sugar.

←

Nope. As mentioned by others above, I want the balance.

←

Brad,

I am working my way through a good out of print book from UCD...they go on to say that at Alc By Vol...16% lets say or more needs a higher RS to be balanced...this I knew through experience...to find validation is very nice...so if you have a 16% with a RS of 1.5% to 2.5% the wine might seem perfect...even with the RS...without the wine will burn burn burn...like a ring of fire...TY JC...over time you will not be able to approach this wine as the heat will kill you without the higher RS...

[Brad Ballinger]

People talk incessantly about the preponderance of high alcohol wines these days, but no one complains about the residual sugar needed to balance the alcohol in these wines, and these wines have no problem selling out--indeed there are long and serious waiting lists for some of them.

I think . . . you like the sugar.

←

Nope. As mentioned by others above, I want the balance.

←

Brad,

I am working my way through a good out of print book from UCD...they go on to say that at Alc By Vol...16% lets say or more needs a higher RS to be balanced...this I knew through experience...to find validation is very nice...so if you have a 16% with a RS of 1.5% to 2.5% the wine might seem perfect...even with the RS...without the wine will burn burn burn...like a ring of fire...TY JC...over time you will not be able to approach this wine as the heat will kill you without the higher RS...

←

John,

I don't disagree at all. I do want the balance, and if that means more RS to tame the alcohol, I'm okay with that if the final product is balanced. With some table wines, though, that approach those high alcohol levels and need the higher RS (zinfandel, some California syrah, some California Pinot Noir, some California viognier), it can be a case of too much of everything. These wines don't do much for me. I know that plenty of others like that style, though.