Landmarc at the Time-Warner Center

[weinoo]

We shared a big plate of the Tuesday pasta, spaghetti alla carbonara, which was properly sauced and nicely al dente (which is no mean feat for a restaurant that only features one pasta dish).  Ideally, I would have liked some cracked black pepper with the pasta, which as an Italophile I consider an important part of spaghetti alla carbonara, but this is a fairly minor quibble.

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I don't know if I agree with this, Sam. First off, if the kitchen is only making one pasta, I would hope that the kitchen is cooking it correctly!

And, especially as an Italophile, how can a carbonara have no black pepper? In Downie's seminal tome Cooking the Roman Way, he writes about some Romans insisting that carbonara gets its name for the large quantities of black pepper in it. To serve a carbonara without black pepper, is, imo, like serving cacio e pepe without the pepper as well! Or using parmesan in lieu of pecorino.

Could it be that the mid - to upper west side is so devoid of decent, reasonably priced neighborhood places, that even your tastebuds are deceiving you?!

[oakapple]

I'm not sure which restaurants are the relevant comparison for Landmarc.

One notable point is the huge catchment area that comes from being located directly atop the Columbus Circle subway station, where the 1, A, B, C, and D trains all meet. If you draw a circle around all the places from which you can reach Columbus Circle in 20 minutes, it's an enormous area.

Needless to say, it's also close enough to be a pre-Lincoln Center option, and will pull in its share of mall customers. In the original concept of the Restaurant Collection, one obvious flaw was that none of the restaurants was really a spur-of-the-moment kind of place, which Landmarc clearly will be.

I also think, particularly because of the wine program, that Landmarc will continue to attract a lot of positive press. The main challenge will be quality control. I think there's a reason that there aren't a lot of great 300-seat restaurants. If they aren't careful, it could turn into another Tavern on the Green.

[slkinsey]

I understand your point, Mitch. And, as I said, I'd prefer lots of cracked black pepper as well. But while the lack of cracked black pepper may have made the dish less authentic, it was nevertheless very good. Landmarc isn't presenting itself as an Italian restaurant or one that strives for slavish duplication of regional cuisines, so I'm less inclined to be a purist than I might be if I had the same dish at, e.g., Celeste.

As for cooking dry pasta correctly: My experience is that few restaurants of any kind do it well, regardless of whether they offer lots of pasta dishes... and this goes for many of the ostensibly Italian ones. Landmarc, on the other hand, is not an Italian restaurant, and their menu doesn't feature a lot of pasta dishes. At most restaurants, this would translate into even lower expectations of expertise in pasta cookery, and I wouldn't be likely to order pasta. To return to an earlier example I made in this thread, I wouldn't necessarily expect French Roast to give me properly al dente dry pasta. This is a moot point, however, since Landmarc seems to have a good handle on cooking dry pasta to a good texture.

[Fat Guy]

The main challenge will be quality control. I think there's a reason that there aren't a lot of great 300-seat restaurants. If they aren't careful, it could turn into another Tavern on the Green.

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That's not what I'd be worried about. The cuisine at Landmarc is not the sort that breaks when you try to top 150 covers. It's more like steakhouse cuisine, which is easy to scale up so long as you plan for it.

I'm pretty sanguine about the quality of the food. My concern would be the opposite: that the place will become so (deservedly) popular that it will be difficult to get in, or the prices will go up, or the table turns will have to be pretty aggressive. Landmarc downtown is one of the great neighborhood restaurants, and the Upper West Side is a densely populated, affluent area desperate for anything like it. I suppose there will always be Mondays.

[weinoo]

I understand your point, Mitch.  And, as I said, I'd prefer lots of cracked black pepper as well.  But while the lack of cracked black pepper may have made the dish less authentic, it was nevertheless very good.  Landmarc isn't presenting itself as an Italian restaurant or one that strives for slavish duplication of regional cuisines, so I'm less inclined to be a purist than I might be if I had the same dish at, e.g., Celeste.

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And your point is taken as well. I guess where I have a problem (and this certainly is not limited to Landmarc) is calling a dish or a drink a certain name, and then not presenting it as the dish was originally meant to be. Examples abound everywhere - an over the top example, of course, is the number of drinks called martinis which have nothing to do with martinis other than the fact that they're served in cocktail lounges or bars.

My hope was that a dish with so few ingredients would deign to the "original" recipe...but the fact that the dish was good, when so many other examples of it are lousy, pepper or not, bodes well.

On another Landmarc question, is there a nice bar area where one might be inclined to have a couple of apps., (which seem to be the strong suit) and a split?

[slkinsey]

On another Landmarc question, is there a nice bar area where one might be inclined to have a couple of apps., (which seem to be the strong suit) and a split?

Absolutely. The bar seats around 20, I'd say. But, given the size of the space, I don't think there's any reason why you couldn't just grab a two-top for a half-bottle and a couple of apps.

[JosephB]

The main challenge will be quality control. I think there's a reason that there aren't a lot of great 300-seat restaurants. If they aren't careful, it could turn into another Tavern on the Green.

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That's not what I'd be worried about. The cuisine at Landmarc is not the sort that breaks when you try to top 150 covers. It's more like steakhouse cuisine, which is easy to scale up so long as you plan for it.

I'm pretty sanguine about the quality of the food. My concern would be the opposite: that the place will become so (deservedly) popular that it will be difficult to get in, or the prices will go up, or the table turns will have to be pretty aggressive. Landmarc downtown is one of the great neighborhood restaurants, and the Upper West Side is a densely populated, affluent area desperate for anything like it. I suppose there will always be Mondays.

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But don't you think a 7:00 am to 2:00 am operation adds significantly to the challenge of maintaining quality? The restuarant never really closes.

Edited April 19, 2007 by JosephB (log)

[Sneakeater]

Downtown is 12 noon to 2 AM Monday through Friday, 9 AM to 2 AM Saturday and Sunday. I'm not saying it's not different, but is it THAT different?

(I assume the people working at 7 AM aren't the same as the people working at 1 AM.)

Edited April 19, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[Fat Guy]

But don't you think a 7:00 am to 2:00 am operation adds significantly to the challenge of maintaining quality?  The restuarant never really closes.

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Look at what they accomplish with the kitchen space they have downtown, and compare it to the fantasy kitchen they now have at Time Warner. They should be able to handle many times the throughput. And look at the menu. I think the original Landmarc was either designed from the ground up to be repeatable and scalable, or unintentionally developed that way (probably the former). There's nothing on the menu that requires the presence of a superstar chef or any great amount of artistry. You just need good purchasing and good training (okay, easier said than done; then again on the purchasing side you can often do better with a bigger operation -- all of a sudden you're a major account with your meat supplier, etc.). There's no reason you can't do 600 seats 24/7 the same way, if the demand is there. The nice thing is that Marc Murphy has the talent to create a menu with so many winners despite a fundamentally simple formula. And I think he has the integrity to keep from going in a mail-it-in direction. He's just not the kind of chef I picture telling the crew to par-cook all the steaks at 5pm. He wants the place to be good, in part because he's a serious chef with a lot of self-respect and in part because if it's good and successful the next one will be at the Genting casino in Sentosa, Singapore.

[Sneakeater]

It seems superfluous to state agreement with FG, but, yeah, exactly.

[JosephB]

It seems superfluous to state agreement with FG, but, yeah, exactly.

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I certainly hope you guys are right, because my family is looking forward to the Landmarc option. I don't know a lot about the economics of adding breakfast to a lunch, dinner and late night operation, but I'm sure the marginal costs are not significant.

I interrupted my morning walk to work and popped in this morning at 8:20 am. There were only four customers in the restaurant. There seemed to be even fewer employees. I know word is just getting out that Landmarc is open, but except for tourists, child caregivers, retired folk, and few other miscellaneous types, I can't see that they'll get much of a breakfast crowd. Even on weekends, the crowds won't likely arrive until late morning. My wife goes to Bouchon and the Bouchon coffee bar with some frequency, and reports that it's pretty quiet on weekdays. Indeed, there was no one at the coffee bar when I went there this morning.

[oakapple]

I interrupted my morning walk to work and popped in this morning at 8:20 am.  There were only four customers in the restaurant.  There seemed to be even fewer employees.  I know word is just getting out that Landmarc is open, but except for tourists, child caregivers, retired folk, and few other miscellaneous types, I can't see that they'll get much of a breakfast crowd.  Even on weekends, the crowds won't likely arrive until late morning.  My wife goes to Bouchon and the Bouchon coffee bar with some frequency, and reports that it's pretty quiet on weekdays.  Indeed, there was no one at the coffee bar when I went there this morning.

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I'm not convinced the breakfast service will last. Café Gray originally planned to offer breakfast, and it quickly died. Clearly there's a price point differential between the two restaurants, but I think the location has something to do with it too.

[Nathan]

breakfast doesn't necessarily add much in the way of extra staff.

an operation like Landmarc will have people doing prep work 24/7...since you already have people in the kitchen it's not hard to do a few breakfast items...(of a type which take virtually no work at all).

[oakapple]

breakfast doesn't necessarily add much in the way of extra staff.

an operation like Landmarc will have people doing prep work 24/7...since you already have people in the kitchen it's not hard to do a few breakfast items...(of a type which take virtually no work at all).

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If that were true, then there are many other restaurants in this town that would be open for breakfast—but aren't.

[Nathan]

that doesn't follow:

a. it has to be a very large restaurant...such that it really does have ample staff there early in the morning.

b. it has to be able to plausibly serve simple comfort food breakfast items that don't really require any work. that rules out large places like Buddakan.

c. it has to be in a residential neighborhood (the question mark with Landmarc uptown).

d. its owners and chef have to be willing to have it open even though they'll just break even on breakfast and won't make much, if any, extra cash.

Balthazar is the classic example of a restaurant meeting those criteria. I can't think of many others that it would apply to.

heck, the same logic applies to lunch at JG and Perry Street...Jean Georges prices the lunches at cost...he just does it to generate good will and allow his FOH to make a little extra money. (at least that is the stated reason within his organization)

[slkinsey]

Right. That's my thinking as well.

Considering the demographic of customers filling the downtown location after midnight, many of whom are actually much closer to the new location, I have no doubt that Landmarc TWC will become an after-hours hangout for area restaurant workers and Lincoln Center performers. So, they'll be doing real business until 2AM most nights.

Since they're serving lunch, you have to figure that there are going to be people working as early as 7AM anyway just to prep for lunch and do routine maintenance. So the cost of a few waitstaff and cooks for the breakfast shift has got to be marginal, and I'm sure their business plan does not assume 300 covers every day for breakfast. It also may turn out that they do good breakfast business on area deliveries. If there's one thing that seems clear, it's that the Landmarc team are good businesspeople, and I'm sure they've thought this out.

In that light, I'm not sure Marc's Café Gray comparison is a good one. First, Gray Kunz seems to be notoriously shaky as a businessperson, and the real stretch for Café Gray was opening for lunch, not breakfast. They weren't even able to sustain a lunch seating, and opening for breakfast was iffy at best. I'm also not sure Joe's Bouchon comparison is a good one. There's a big difference, to me at least, between paying 12 bucks for quiche and the privilege of sitting at a table in the hall versus 9 bucks to sit in Landmarc's space. Bouchon at the TWC has always seemed to me like an extremely expensive Au Bon Pain.

[docsconz]

Another point to consider for the breakfast demographics of the area is that there are a number of hotels in the area including one in the TWC itself. NYC has very few B&B hotel options and travelers often like a good breakfast. It may take a little while for them to discover Landmarc, but if the breakfast is good and reasonably economical like the rest of the Landmarc business model, the travelers should eventually find it.

[Sneakeater]

Bouchon at the TWC has always seemed to me like an extremely expensive Au Bon Pain.

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I'm so happy to hear somebody else say this.

[Fat Guy]

I don't think there's a clear template for it. If breakfast turns out to be a money-loser, they'll close for breakfast, unless they're contractually obligated to be open for breakfast -- in which case there's probably a subsidy in place to compensate. It's not as though anybody is really paying market rent in the pretend society of the Time Warner Center. If Himmel wants Landmarc open for breakfast, it will be open for breakfast through the year 3,000.

[oakapple]

I don't think there's a clear template for it. If breakfast turns out to be a money-loser, they'll close for breakfast, unless they're contractually obligated to be open for breakfast -- in which case there's probably a subsidy in place to compensate. It's not as though anybody is really paying market rent in the pretend society of the Time Warner Center. If Himmel wants Landmarc open for breakfast, it will be open for breakfast through the year 3,000.

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I agree about the lack of a clear template.

Except on Saturdays and Sundays, breakfast for most people is more about expediency than anything else — where can I get something decent, as quickly as I can, so that I can get on with my day? I can't imagine that Landmarc's English Muffin for $3 is that much better than the diner down the street, but to get it at Landmarc, you have to go into a mall and up two flights of escalators.

The exception is the business breakfast, in which case diners are less price sensitive, and usually want something a bit fancier than Landmarc appears to be offering. Doc referred to the Landmarc business model, a lot of which doesn't seem to readily translate to breakfast (e.g., the wine program).

Anyhow, it's not that I'm predicting that the breakfast menu will fail, only that I don't see the same obvious path to success that I can see for the rest of what they're doing. Having said that, I don't really think it matters one iota if, next January, they announce new hours of 11:00 a.m. to 2:00 a.m.

Edited April 20, 2007 by oakapple (log)

[Nathan]

I don't think there's a clear template for it. If breakfast turns out to be a money-loser, they'll close for breakfast, unless they're contractually obligated to be open for breakfast -- in which case there's probably a subsidy in place to compensate. It's not as though anybody is really paying market rent in the pretend society of the Time Warner Center. If Himmel wants Landmarc open for breakfast, it will be open for breakfast through the year 3,000.

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I agree about the lack of a clear template.

Except on Saturdays and Sundays, breakfast for most people is more about expediency than anything else — where can I get something decent, as quickly as I can, so that I can get on with my day? I can't imagine that Landmarc's English Muffin for $3 is that much better than the the diner down the street, but to get it at Landmarc, you have to go into a mall and up two flights of escalators.

The exception is the business breakfast, in which case diners are less price sensitive, and usually want something a bit fancier than Landmarc appears to be offering. Doc referred to the Landmarc business model, a lot of which doesn't seem to readily translate to breakfast (e.g., the wine program).

Anyhow, it's not that I'm predicting that the breakfast menu will fail, only that I don't see the same obvious path to success that I can see for the rest of what they're doing. Having said that, I don't really think it matters one iota if, next January, they announce new hours of 11:00 a.m. to 2:00 a.m.

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that's where Balthazar is an interesting analogue...(and precisely where I got the "template" from)....there's nothing elaborate about the Balthazar weekday breakfast (brunch is different).

edit: the breakfast at Balthazar works because many NoLIta and SoHo residents do not work normal business schedules but have high disposable incomes (it's a mixture of unemployed Eurotrash and Australians, models, fashion, PR and design types (their office hours seem to start at 10 or 11, or they work from home), kept women, etc.)...what I don't know is whether this applies to the UWS.

Edited April 20, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[Fat Guy]

It will be interesting to see how it goes. Will Landmarc become a morning weekday neighborhood hangout, where people come with laptops and sit for a couple of hours? (Do they have WiFi?) Will tourists go there in the morning? Will increasingly casual businesspeople use it? Will they do morning events, like where the pharmaceutical reps bring in a bunch of doctors from Roosevelt and show slides? Catering and delivery? It's really hard to know.

[Sneakeater]

Was/is the cafe at Fairway open for weekday breakfasts? If so, how does/did it do?

[Jesikka]

I hope I'm not offending anyone by suggesting that maybe it's meant for UWS mommies (of the stay at home sort) and kids? It seems like a decent place to sit with your kid and grab breakfast and then go to the park/museums, etc. You can even fit in a quick trip to Williams Sonoma.

[slkinsey]

The TriBeCa Landmarc, at its heart, is an unpretentious neighborhood restaurant trying to offer quality NYC-worthy food and wine at a great price along with friendly service. The TWC location is following the same aesthetic. So, yea, of course it's for UWS mommies and kids... it's also for 30somethings on date nights, pre- and post-theater dining, after-work hanging out for industry types and performing artists. Providing breakfast to mothers and kids before a trip to the park, museum, shopping, whatever is entirely in line with their raison d'être.

Edited April 20, 2007 by slkinsey (log)