Bux

I've added the emphasis. I think you can ask if the results are acceptable for a two star restaurant. How they achieve those results really doesn't matter does it? Would you prefer a lesser quality risotto if it were cooked to a more exacting classic standard? I don't think so. I think it's legitimate to ask about the technique, but in the end it's the quality that counts. If a professional can develop a short cut with the same, or a better end result, why not?

Dining with strangers who are intrested in food may be the biggest advantage there is to dining at the James Beard house. I think cabrales put it succinctly when she alluded to the fact that you are likely to better sample Michael White's cooking at Fiamma, where he has his own kitchen, staff and everything he needs. By no means are the facilities at the Beard House superior to most restaurant kitchens and the chef is not at home when he's there. My experience is similar to Plotnicki's. I ate a dish that I had eaten at the restaurant being featured and it was far better prepared at the restaurant than at the James Beard lunch. Short cuts were taken in terms of ingredients and technique. It's an honor to cook at James Beard House, but you get to donate your time and and at least some of the materials, as far as I know. I suppose it's a way to sample the food of out of town chefs, but the home restaurant is a better place to do it.

What are you, a psychiatrist? Gagnaire, and sometimes I want to know why I do what I do. It's been five years since we've dined at Gagnaire. At this point, we've still dined at less than half of the three stars in Paris, but Gagnaire interests me more than most of the others and the one meal we had there, the year he opened in Paris, was among the most stunning meals we've had anywhere, although we hated the desserts and didn't eat them. Grand Vefour, for the first time, and a return to Arpege were both high on my list. There are other restaurants that call as well. I have learned to pace myself in eating after a disasterous experience several years back when a surfeit of foie gras left me incapacitated for several days in Paris after a trip to the southwest. We tend to moderate our restaurant choices and see that our eyes match our stomachs. Maxence, a one star, is one of our other plans for Paris. I had heard good things about Van Laer, the chef, at his previous restaurant, and a tasting of his terrine de Lievre au chocolate at the Salon du Chocolate last November made a big impression on me, but our dance card was too full for us to dine there then. We expect to take a couple of meals at little places suggested by, and with, friends and acquaintances in Paris and we have left a couple of days free to return to an old favorite brasserie or bistro as the mood strikes and if we are lucky enough to get a last minute reservations. From there we move on to the provinces and as I've explained in another thread, a few two star inns with free days in between have turned into a set itinerary of one and two star restaurants, most of them with better than average marks in GM for their star ranking, but looking at the Michelin map, they all seem to be the logical choices I would have ended up making if we were touring without an itinerary. Of course some are cancellable at the last minute, I suppose, but that's not likely. I regard the R&C places as uncancellable in light of current onerous policies regarding cancellations less one month in advance. I cherish the romantic notion of driving in the French countryside without a care or a reservation, but my wife almost always makes a convincing argument for booking almost every night.

I consider myself fortunate to have discovered French food in my relative youth and when I had very little money. It enabled me, and later my wife, to travel spontaneously and be delighted with bistro food wherever we stopped. It's hard to do that after you've achieved a certain level of dining sophistication, and probably harder these days than it was then. The relative quality of the ordinary meal in France has decreased over the years and one needs to choose the simple restaurants with great care and the really good ones are often booked as far in advance at the haute cuisine multistarred restaurants. I still think it's wise for a first time traveler to France to eat in a variety of types of restaurant as you plan. When we're driving through any area in France, the latest edition of Michelin, and usually the GaultMillau guide as well, are in the glove compartment for help in spur of the moment choices at any level as well as, in Michelin's case, city maps. Don't be afraid of trying a place not in the guides however, especially for a light lunch. In order to ensure a good appetite at dinner, we often look for creperies and saladiers which enable a lighter than the traditional French meal. It's still often difficult to grab a snack in rural France without resorting to fast food. I'm not above keeping a bag with one or two pastries in the back seat to stave off a mid afternoon hunger. Bear in mind that in rural France one cannot eat at any time of day. Even in Paris, most restaurants serve lunch and dinner, but are closed in between those two meals. Cafes and brasseries often serve non stop. Patricia Wells' The Food Lover's Guide to Paris is a good introduction to French food and dining customs.

Regarding Auberge de l'lle, it's hard for a good restaurant not to get noticed by someone in France. There are too many guides, critics and reviewers, but it's interesting that sometimes the "buzz" about a restaurant in the States is not what it may be in France. Sometimes we discover a restaurant only to discover that it's well known, at least in certain circles, but no one talks about. Publicity tends to snowball and everyone is talking about the places with which we are already familiar. So I thank you greatly for the report on Auberge de l'Ile. I suspect it's less than downtown location will help keep it a bit of a Lyonnaise secret. It sounds as if it's worth the cab ride, but with excellent restaurants in Vieux Lyon, the Presqu'ile and Les Brotteaux, I doubt I would have ventured to the Ile Barbe without a good recommendation in addition to its two stars. As John notes, it's at an appealing price as well.

The Salon Paris Fermier is coming up next week from Friday the 18th through Monday the 21st of October. My apologies for not reminding everyone earlier. We'll be going to the Salon one of those days. By any chance will any of you be there?

Peter, I hope you, and Lizee as well, post messages about your trip on threads with titles that will will lead readers to the information that may interest them rather than having to dig it out. Lizee, I think it's often helpful to start new threads on detailed restaurant reports, even if the restaurant has been the subject of previous thread. Often a member looking for recent information may not start a long thread that begins a year or more ago. Sometimes it's best to do each restaurant separately and at other times it's interesting to focus on an area or to compare certain restaurants. Of course, sometimes it is best to add to an old thead, so I leave that all to your decision. I just wanted to raise the issues. I have mixed feelings about missing the anticipated activity here over the next few weeks as I will be having my own meals to think about. We are leaving for a couple of weeks in Paris and the provinces south of Paris--mostly the Loire, but a bit of Burgundy and Berry, I suppose. We have a single three star meal lined up in Paris, but the rest of our meals will be distrubuted among interesting one, two and no star restaurants out of consideration for our bank account, waistline and the fact that I feel deprived of a certain experience when we don't eat at the little local places. What's clear from your description of the food as l'Arnsbourg could have been served in Paris, New York or Barcelona. That's not a criticism of Klein or his cuisine, just an observation of how international haute cuisine is becoming, not just in the capital cities, but in the provinces as well. It does't lessen the three star food or make them any less worth the voyage.. Post well. I will have a lot of good reading upon my return. I am sorry I will not be able to comment on your posts in a timely fashion.

This is excellent advice. In France it's considered a sign of respect for the restaurant and you'll be treated with greater respect if you call first. The French are a very formal people in many ways and this is the form they prefer. Even if you are sure there will be tables, it's best (read "nicer") to call ahead even if it's only a half hour ahead.

My most honest answer is that I don't know for sure. Obviously it depends on the popularity. A three star restaurant may be fully booked at any time of year. For La Ferme de Mon Pere, it may not be so quiet a time. I don't know when the winter season starts in Megeve. I've made many reservations when I was not sure I needed them. Sometimes I have managed to eat in a half empty room, but at other times I find the restaurant fully booked. The question I might ask in return is how important is it that you eat at these places. Certainly a drive to Megeve without a reservation could be most disappointing. I like traveling wihtout reservations. Invariably my wife manages to book most of our evenings. She'll start by asking me where I absolutely have to eat on our trip. She'll block those out and it quickly becomes apparent that there's an obvious choice on the road between the ones that are musts and as soon as she points these out if becomes obvious that I'm going to be disappointed if I have to stay and eat someplace else.

Ajay, that's an excellent question and I hardly feel qualified to offer a definitive comparison after only one meal at each, especially as the meals were three years apart. We had dinner at Bras and stayed in one of his least expensive rooms for about 175 euros. We had lunch at Veyrat, not the least because his rooms start at just over 400 euros. In both cases we were there at somewhat off season, but at Veyrat the room was considerably less full and we had more attention and perhaps better service. To cover a question asked by jakubc, that I didn't answer earlier, it was the first day of the season at Bras and dinner was the first meal served for the season. In spite of that, the food was flawless and it was evident that cooks were in the kitchen well before opening day. There was a glitch or two in the service early in the evening that got us off into a bad start. It wasn't anything fatal, and I suspected things would go more smoothly in the front of the house in a few more days. I'm dwelling on these peripheral things because I think a first time diner is apt to be very influenced by unfamiliar surroundings in a way that may influence the meal, or at least an appreciation of it. I recall being a bit annoyed at the beginning of the evening at Bras and as a result I looked at the wine list with some less interest than I might have had our pause in the lounge for an aperatif gone more smoothly. Did it have a negative affect on my final appreciation of the meal? I don't know. Veyrat's place is very homey and a bit rustic in spite of extensive investment. Bras very modern inn is quite a different experience. Both chefs are successful in creating their cuisine and they both tie their food to the local terrior, but in different ways. There's an emphasis with Veyrat on foraging for wild herbs, flowers and roots of the Alpine countryside. Bras seems more interested in the traditional farm products. The differences in style of their cuisine are not so easy for me to compare offhand, right now. One similarity was that both, as I recall, limited their cheese selection to local cheeses and both offered an excellent choice, although with Veyrat it was limited to a couple of different cheeses and a selection of each at varying ages. In an odd way, while I see Veyrat's cheese cart as tighter and more intellectual is closer to how I would describe Bras' cooking. I think of Veyrat as the more romantic expansive cook. So my understanding of their respective cuisines is probably not so well formed. A further difference between the two meals that might also color my comparison is that we arrived at Veyrat rather ravenous, having had a light dinner the night before and little for breakfast. We ordered the tasting menu and Gagnaire regaled us with extra courses. Unfortunately we timed our day poorly before arriving at Bras. We had a later lunch than we intended and ate more than we should have. We had a limited appetite by dinner time and ordered the smaller of the two special menus.

We dined at Veyrat a little over three years ago. He had not yet opened the restaurant in Megeve and I can't speak for the changes in his cuisine since, but it was an exceptional meal. If it wasn't the best meal of our lives, it was certainly a contender for that honor. , It was certainly not the most rustic meal I have ever had, but there was an earthiness about the food as well as a sense of the region that contributed it its appeal. It was sensuous food, but I'd probably say that about all great food. Either that, or I'd need to find food sensuous before I'd say it was really great. As much as I can say any meal in that price rage is generous, this was a particularly generous meal in more than one way. The meal was very satisfying and one felt the chef and the kitchen gave it everything they had. I'd also have to note that Veyrat sent out several main courses that were not on the menu between our last savory course and the cheeses, I'm not sure why we were the beneficiaries of such generosity, but he was generous to us.

I would maintain that there is no "line." There is a large grey area in which many people will disagree about whethr it's haute cuisine. There is a vicious circle of chicken and egg rather than horse and cart in operation. A chef may get a reputation for creating haute cuisine and after a while, anything he serves is seen as haute cuisine. The argument of whether or not an exceptionally fine rendition of a classic peasant dish becomes haute cuisine becomes easier for some to answer when the chef who prepared the dish is Bras, Passard or Guerard. Ignoring the argument whether food is art of not, there are two parallels in other crafts, applied arts and design categories. One is what separates archtitecture from just buidling and whatever it is, nothing stops the Museum of Modern Art from featuring folk and indigenous "architecture" in its exhibits. A better analogy might be seem to be between haute cuisine and haute couture. If Yves St. Laurant designs the jeans are they high fashion? If the right super model or society babe wears Levis to the opera, is she making a fashion statement? When Daniel Boulud makes a hamburger, is it haute cuisine or a fashion statement?

Let me try to make a couple of points. Haute cuisine is not the same thing as French cuisine. Most French cuisine is not haute cuisine. Most restaurant cuisine is not haute cuisine. Basically haute cuisine is a subset of French cuisine, and a subset of French restaurant cooking at it's height of finesse, although excellent arguments could be made that it's now an international style of cooking that bears little resemblance to traditional French cuisine. Nevertheless, it's a style that developed in France. Chefs in this country who might be said to cook haute cuisine range from the French such as Boulud, Delouvrier, Vongerichten, etc. to Americans such as Trotter and Keller. Certainly there are several chefs in Spain now whose restaurants offer haute cuisine. Cassoulet is most definitely not haute cuisine. It is a traditional regional French dish. Nevretheless, it and other rustic dishes may make an appearance in a restaurant known for it's haute cuisine. Sometimes it appears in these places in it's proper form. Sometimes it's gussied up and ruined. Every once in a while, some chef manages to successfully create an elegant version. More often they have too much respect for the dish to try. A great three star chef can usually turn out a most remarkable version of most rustic dishes. Some chefs in the US and France, Boulud and Guerard are two that come to mind, seem to have their hearts in that rustic food and it's often evident even in the fanciest dishes.

You're wrong, but of course we'll excuse you. We always do.

I think I mentioned composed salads which should include tossed salads and mixed salads and certainly cold steak on greens with dressing (mayo, vinairgrette, etc.)

When's the last time anyone asked himself if he was eating haute cuisine, or thought to himself, I'd to dine in a haute cuisine restaurant when making restaurants?

There's no particular point at which something is, or is not, haute cuisine. When enough people agree it's haute cuisine, it is (at least to those people). What difference does it make? If I had tete de veau at Daniel, was it haute cuisine? There's a vague point at which a certain finesse kicks in and we call it haute cuisine. That point is vague and just where about it is changes over time and according to who cares. Wilfrid gave five good pointers and then correctly noted that none of the conditions are necessary and that you might not have find art, whoops I mean haute cuisine, even if you meet all five. My wife had pasta with "Bolognese"sauce at Michel Guerard. Was that haute cuisine? I may have to go back to the Italy thread and ask.

I believe they use mechanical slicers in Italy for most "cold cuts." Is "cold cuts" the American word for charcuterie and salumi? I'm just disagreeing with the Italian standard. I'm not even sure that large cured chorizos and lomos ae not commonly cut by machine either. If everyone used a machine for pastrami, that would become the standard as well. I think standards have to questioned.

The food craftsmen, I assume, are whom you are talking about. The Italians can make a big deal of their clothing and furniture designers as well as the builders of racing cars. I think you perhaps addressed this issue even better earlier when you spoke of France's restaurant culture. Forget the aristocracy, the bourgeoisie and the peasants and focus on the one real event--the French revolution which left many chefs out of business across the country. The restaurant as destination, not as an adjunct to the inn feeding travelers, may have been the result and France built on this to the point where we travel in France just to eat at destination restaurants. I don't know the food and restaurant culture of Italy as well, but others have made convincing arguments of many sorts, that restaurants chefs largely cook home cooking. I've heard that Italians entertain each other by cooking the standards. Here in the U.S. we look for variety and prefer fads to tradition, especially in our urban societies. We find the work of individuals more relevant than that of cultural tradition perhaps as a result. JD, I don't think you can set aside issues of innovation vs tradition if our society finds one more relevant than another. I still think this is a horse and cart issue and the question is loaded. If I like French food, it's going to be more relevent to my interests. If someone else likes Italian food--and more Americans like Italian food over French food, although they are actually clueless about what that is as Pumpkino knows--that is more relevent to his interest. I don't know Italy and it's food nearly as well as I know French food, and to a certain degree that's because the first two times I went to Europe, I was captivated by France and it's food , so I have returned over and over to France and thus it's difficult for me to participate on a deeper level in this thread. I am learning more about Spanish food and find it fascinating. I also find it fascinating in context to this thread because much of what I have come to understand is based on local products of incredible quality and there is often no reason to attempt to duplicate the food if the ingredients are not available, or if they're available in such an inferior or different form. For instance, can one find suckling lamb in the U.S. of such an age and size that the entire carcass almost fits on a large dinner plate?

As my daughter is apt to say to me, "suck it up and deal with it."

There must be a reason Michelin rates the service and ambience using forks and spoons. but no knives.

I also like some good thick homemade mayonnaise with my cold chicken, pork and beef. In the summer we'll often cook meat especially to be eaten cold. This is different from cooking enough so that you have leftovers, this is cooking meat and setting it aside to be eaten cold by itself with some mayonaisse, with a garnish, in a sandwich or as part of a composed salad. I'd add cold fish as well. I think I've also mentioned the appeal I've found of some cold goat cheeses. The have the quality of ice cream, or maybe of some new savory ice cream. As with cold meats, at first you notice a flavor loss, and then you find flavors you didn't find in the warm meat.

No self respecting purveyor of top quality Bellota ham in Spain would use a mechanical slicer. The heat generated from the rapidly spinning blade would degrade the flavor of the meat. I only know what they tell me. I also believe paper thin slices are much over rated.

I remember Sun Lok Kee from a long time ago and had the imprssion that it had gone downhill considerably over the years. Perhaps it had, or maybe I just hit it on a bad night or two and then stopped going there. It may also be that I wrote it off because it was so crowded, which should be an indication that it was really good, except that I recall it being crowded with caucasians. My prejudice that a restaurant in Chinatown needs to have an Asian clientele to be reliably good may be outdated. The rise in sophistication and appreciation of Chinese food has really grown among New York's European descendants over the years. Speaking of good Chinese food, return visits to the Ninth Avenue Grand Sichuan impress me, but not quite as much as meals in Dim Sum GoGo. The amazing thing about Dim Sum GoGo is that I've never had to wait on line for dinner.

There are those who would agree that Stravinsky's work is art, while not agreeing that it's music. For them it's noise and music what they like. Ditto the distinctions between Gagnaire's art and food.