Duvel

I like that we both come to the same conclusion 🤗 Let’s leave it at that in the certainty that craft cocktails and theoretical thermodynamics meet only in harmony if both are applied to the same person. Stat.

Let me bring the wings - seems I am not so good with ice 😝

You are stuck in the cocktail shaker. Let’s do the Duveltini experiment 2.0 (extreme case, just to demonstrate): Dewar vessel, temperature equilibrium, 1000 g of ice, -20 oC. We add 10 g of a suitable alcoholic drink with 20 oC. What will happen ? 1) Will the ice melt: Nope. Heat introduced into the system by the drink is not sufficient to raise the temperature above its melting point. 2) Will there be any dilution ? (Apart from some surface phenomena) Nope. Ice doesn’t melt significantly. Truth is, there will be some, but it is not significant. 3) How does the content of the Dewar vessel cool the drink ? Thermal mass transfer. Nothing magical, no phase transition, just plain heat transfer - just when you put a pot of water on a hot stove.

Sorry, I do not know how to explain it any better. Please forget about his premise of all ice being at 0 oC (that is seemingly true for the bar environment, but not a law of nature). Of course the amount of ice matters, and no - unless you are in a mass transfer limited environment - there is no such thing as “sufficient ice”, because every gram of ice you add brings in additional cooling capacity*. Period. The more you put, the more cooling capacity you have. If you put really a lot and you start out cold, the ice won’t warm up sufficiently to even melt. And if you stay below the melting point of ice (think about it), how can be the phase transition enthalpy be the major (or sole) contributor to cool your drink. How can something that doesn’t melt cool via a phase transition ? —- *actually heat capacity, but that might confuse people.

And how could there possibly be any argument about the above? Alright, @weinoo - you and me, outside, in 5 min …

Wings ?!

Link is correct, last paragraph. It is not a flaw per se, I‘d rather call it a limitation of his parameters: he limits (actually not specifies) the mass of ice he is using. Again, because he doesn’t have to - his focus on the volume of a cocktail shaker is self limiting. He can’t simply introduce more cooling agent, thus he has to rely on the melting and the phase transition enthalpy. I am very sorry, your statement „at any temperature“ is wrong. If your complete system (ice, shaker, drink) remains under the melting point of the ice, there is simply no cooling by melting ice. Put enough ice at low enough temperatures and you are there. It just might not fit into your shaker anymore and thus has no practical application in a bar setup.

One of my childhood memories is boiled spaghetti with Maggi seasoning. Of course its supposed tobe wrong, but it is also starchy, umami and filling. No regrets …

In the end of the 60‘s, when Italian food hit Germany and my parents started dating, my (paternal) grandparents enjoyed spaghetti with tomato sauce for the first time (expertly prepared by my mom (brave soul cooling exotic stuff for the furture in-laws). My grandfather insisted on having potatoes on the side. Spaghetti with tomato sauce and a side of (home fried, boiled or mashed) potatoes became a staple ih their household …

True ! And don’t forget about those Japanese bartenders that spend 10 min chiseling the perfect round clear ice cube to put into your Hakushu 18. Best (and most expensive) drink drink I ever had 🙃

Please forget for a second the „melting ice“ mantra. That’s for a limited amount of 0 oC bar ice. Run your head through the Duveltini experiment, which happens all below 0 oC. A simple mass transfer limited equilibrium, no phase transitions. And I guarantee you with proper ice size and agitation it will be faster that what Dave observes …

Yeap. At 0 oC, and you pay for that by diluting your drink. If you don’t want that, please see above 😉

I think you might not get me 😉 I do not contest his findings, and his conclusions are mostly apt. There is a fundamental difference how we see this issue: Dave (and you and most of this thread) has copious if experience in cocktails and the setup of a bar. And has understood and accepted these limitations as the parameters in which one works in. And that’s completely fine. „This is what we have, and this is what comes out of it“ I have no idea about the delicate ways of making cocktails. My angle is more of a goal-driven approach and what do I have to do get there. And what I have realized is that most of what I would do to for example chill a drink without dilution would not work or at least not used in a bar setup. „This is what the outcome has to be, and this is what is needed for that“. The original question was how much dilution will a drink suffer (experience) if you cool it with ice. 25% dilution stands in the room. I couldn’t figure out where it comes from, but if I would have to I am quite confident to be able to control the amount of dilution from close to 0% to whatever. The solution for the former would be a significant excess of coolant (ice) over the drink and employing the coolant at the lowest available temperature. This is a simple technical solution, but it just doesn’t work in a bar setup. You have noticed that Dave starts from a shaker and whatever ice/water mixture goes in - there simply is no possibility of excess coolant. I would assume that is why the mass of the ice is not discussed, either. It is the outcome of what you have and he explaines the underlying thermodynamics (and does it well). So again: completely fine, just a set of limitations I did not understand before …

If you want to do that, you have to add a lot of salt to the ice, and use it as cooling mantle, not an ingredient.

That‘s without the 0 oC ice limitation in bars. The latter is adressed in the sentence after your citation. And I think that because I used to work with this type of processes for a living (albeit not with drinkable substances).

That sounds pretty, pretty good* - I enjoy Kijoshu a lot and I love Hinoki bitters (and my bottle in the mancave could is always looking for more tasty application). Maybe they would consider a pop-up bar in Germany ? —- but as a purist: can you really call this Martini 😝 ?

Fleischsalat & Mett (plus freshly squeezed OJ) … no need for lunch today 🤗

Sure you would need two readings (just as for weight or volume), as dilution is a diffential between two compositions. Didn’t think of the math (that’s what the software of your Mettler Toledo usually takes care of), but I think it is doable. But I am fully with you that weight or volume is far easier outside of a lab 😉

That was indeed as enlightening as surprising to me. I would have assumed ice is employed significantly colder. With ice at 0 oC and in equilibrium with surrounding water also the surface area (on a microscale) will be rather smooth … This part I disagree with. For ice residing in the finished drink I agree - cooling (plus dilution) comes from the phase transition of the ice/water and is significantly higher that the pure equilibration of temperatures, but … Chilling the drink rapidly is (if done properly) a simple heat transfer process. So mass x temperature of coolant vs. mass x temperature of alcoholic drink. However, I understand that in a bar context with (as I have learned now) 0 oC ice and most likely the limited use of ice for cooling pure heat transfer may give way to a mixed heat transfer/phase transition process, and that will less depend on the ice temperature (in the narrow gap that the bar allows). C.f. above Gedankenexperiment on @weinoos Duveltini … Amen !

Now we are talking. Still doesn‘t explain the 25%, but now I am getting to the point to believe that this is actually their desired target value they tailor their method to …

I think these observations would be perceived as less random if he would specify his setup or method belonging to this specific dilution. But maybe that’s my OCD talking again … Or maybe he is that good that he actually aims for coming out exactly at that dilution ?

Delicious - I want this so badly right now 🤤

Big day today: little one got his first ever half year report in school (he‘s doing fine) and his first CoVid vaccination shot (he‘s doing fine, too). So he got to choose a movie (on a friday !) and dinner - he wanted hot dogs and fries … Hot dog with spicy beef sausage, teriyaki mayo, pineapple, roasted & fresh onions and some greens on a brioche bun. A beer. Rest of the family got the beer-less menu. Served together with „Back to the outback“. Happy kid 🤗

There is a lot of observational (if not anecdotal) findings in this thread, probably most of it correct in one way or another. Maybe the starting point of Modernist Cocktail … I know I am a bit OCD about this. I do like the original article @weinoo cited, especially the description of the narrow sweet spot. And as much as I like the accuracy to close in on the spot, I’m feeling disappointed about the formula to get there, simply assuming 25% dilution. I know it is more complicated than that, with more variables, but given my tendency to overthink these type of issues, I will do my best to just let it go (and keep drinking straight gin martinis) …

Nice article with quite some valid points. „The ice they made was in pieces that were smaller and had more surface area, says Schott, “either hollow cubes or little half-moons.” The greater ratio of surface area to volume meant the ice was quicker to make but also quicker to melt. And that makes a very significant difference to a drink.“ „When our Kold-Draft machine would crap out, we’d use half-moons, and every cocktail we made would taste completely different, because everything was watered down about 20 percent more.” And that’s that part that I struggle with - with all these variables, how can one come up with a simple 25% formula. To put it in an extreme example: Imagine someone* making a Duveltini comprised of 92 g gin and 8 g brine. He takes his ingredients from the fridge at 8 oC. He pours this mixture rapidly onto a large insulated stirring vessel filled with 1000 g of crushed ice, taken from the freezer at -20 oC. The ice will essentially not melt. There will be little to none dilution, except for some surface phenomena. The end result will be ~100-105 g of Duveltini at ~-16 oC … —- * like e.g. @weinoo