Duvel

In the end of the 60‘s, when Italian food hit Germany and my parents started dating, my (paternal) grandparents enjoyed spaghetti with tomato sauce for the first time (expertly prepared by my mom (brave soul cooling exotic stuff for the furture in-laws). My grandfather insisted on having potatoes on the side. Spaghetti with tomato sauce and a side of (home fried, boiled or mashed) potatoes became a staple ih their household …

True ! And don’t forget about those Japanese bartenders that spend 10 min chiseling the perfect round clear ice cube to put into your Hakushu 18. Best (and most expensive) drink drink I ever had 🙃

Please forget for a second the „melting ice“ mantra. That’s for a limited amount of 0 oC bar ice. Run your head through the Duveltini experiment, which happens all below 0 oC. A simple mass transfer limited equilibrium, no phase transitions. And I guarantee you with proper ice size and agitation it will be faster that what Dave observes …

Yeap. At 0 oC, and you pay for that by diluting your drink. If you don’t want that, please see above 😉

I think you might not get me 😉 I do not contest his findings, and his conclusions are mostly apt. There is a fundamental difference how we see this issue: Dave (and you and most of this thread) has copious if experience in cocktails and the setup of a bar. And has understood and accepted these limitations as the parameters in which one works in. And that’s completely fine. „This is what we have, and this is what comes out of it“ I have no idea about the delicate ways of making cocktails. My angle is more of a goal-driven approach and what do I have to do get there. And what I have realized is that most of what I would do to for example chill a drink without dilution would not work or at least not used in a bar setup. „This is what the outcome has to be, and this is what is needed for that“. The original question was how much dilution will a drink suffer (experience) if you cool it with ice. 25% dilution stands in the room. I couldn’t figure out where it comes from, but if I would have to I am quite confident to be able to control the amount of dilution from close to 0% to whatever. The solution for the former would be a significant excess of coolant (ice) over the drink and employing the coolant at the lowest available temperature. This is a simple technical solution, but it just doesn’t work in a bar setup. You have noticed that Dave starts from a shaker and whatever ice/water mixture goes in - there simply is no possibility of excess coolant. I would assume that is why the mass of the ice is not discussed, either. It is the outcome of what you have and he explaines the underlying thermodynamics (and does it well). So again: completely fine, just a set of limitations I did not understand before …

If you want to do that, you have to add a lot of salt to the ice, and use it as cooling mantle, not an ingredient.

That‘s without the 0 oC ice limitation in bars. The latter is adressed in the sentence after your citation. And I think that because I used to work with this type of processes for a living (albeit not with drinkable substances).

That sounds pretty, pretty good* - I enjoy Kijoshu a lot and I love Hinoki bitters (and my bottle in the mancave could is always looking for more tasty application). Maybe they would consider a pop-up bar in Germany ? —- but as a purist: can you really call this Martini 😝 ?

Fleischsalat & Mett (plus freshly squeezed OJ) … no need for lunch today 🤗

Sure you would need two readings (just as for weight or volume), as dilution is a diffential between two compositions. Didn’t think of the math (that’s what the software of your Mettler Toledo usually takes care of), but I think it is doable. But I am fully with you that weight or volume is far easier outside of a lab 😉

That was indeed as enlightening as surprising to me. I would have assumed ice is employed significantly colder. With ice at 0 oC and in equilibrium with surrounding water also the surface area (on a microscale) will be rather smooth … This part I disagree with. For ice residing in the finished drink I agree - cooling (plus dilution) comes from the phase transition of the ice/water and is significantly higher that the pure equilibration of temperatures, but … Chilling the drink rapidly is (if done properly) a simple heat transfer process. So mass x temperature of coolant vs. mass x temperature of alcoholic drink. However, I understand that in a bar context with (as I have learned now) 0 oC ice and most likely the limited use of ice for cooling pure heat transfer may give way to a mixed heat transfer/phase transition process, and that will less depend on the ice temperature (in the narrow gap that the bar allows). C.f. above Gedankenexperiment on @weinoos Duveltini … Amen !

Now we are talking. Still doesn‘t explain the 25%, but now I am getting to the point to believe that this is actually their desired target value they tailor their method to …

I think these observations would be perceived as less random if he would specify his setup or method belonging to this specific dilution. But maybe that’s my OCD talking again … Or maybe he is that good that he actually aims for coming out exactly at that dilution ?

Delicious - I want this so badly right now 🤤

Big day today: little one got his first ever half year report in school (he‘s doing fine) and his first CoVid vaccination shot (he‘s doing fine, too). So he got to choose a movie (on a friday !) and dinner - he wanted hot dogs and fries … Hot dog with spicy beef sausage, teriyaki mayo, pineapple, roasted & fresh onions and some greens on a brioche bun. A beer. Rest of the family got the beer-less menu. Served together with „Back to the outback“. Happy kid 🤗

There is a lot of observational (if not anecdotal) findings in this thread, probably most of it correct in one way or another. Maybe the starting point of Modernist Cocktail … I know I am a bit OCD about this. I do like the original article @weinoo cited, especially the description of the narrow sweet spot. And as much as I like the accuracy to close in on the spot, I’m feeling disappointed about the formula to get there, simply assuming 25% dilution. I know it is more complicated than that, with more variables, but given my tendency to overthink these type of issues, I will do my best to just let it go (and keep drinking straight gin martinis) …

Nice article with quite some valid points. „The ice they made was in pieces that were smaller and had more surface area, says Schott, “either hollow cubes or little half-moons.” The greater ratio of surface area to volume meant the ice was quicker to make but also quicker to melt. And that makes a very significant difference to a drink.“ „When our Kold-Draft machine would crap out, we’d use half-moons, and every cocktail we made would taste completely different, because everything was watered down about 20 percent more.” And that’s that part that I struggle with - with all these variables, how can one come up with a simple 25% formula. To put it in an extreme example: Imagine someone* making a Duveltini comprised of 92 g gin and 8 g brine. He takes his ingredients from the fridge at 8 oC. He pours this mixture rapidly onto a large insulated stirring vessel filled with 1000 g of crushed ice, taken from the freezer at -20 oC. The ice will essentially not melt. There will be little to none dilution, except for some surface phenomena. The end result will be ~100-105 g of Duveltini at ~-16 oC … —- * like e.g. @weinoo

I am but a simple man living by simple principles …

Thanks ! I would have probably just used a refraktometer, but your method certainly works as well … What I would like to know it how one can be certain about the 25% dilution. I thought to puzzle together a small Aspen simulation for that but … temperature of the mixture pre chilling temperature of the ice environmental temperature amount of the mixture pre chilling amount of ice (mass) surface volume of the ice heat capacity of the shaker/stirring vessel time of contact between mixture and ice … And then you have the „melting“ part of the equation, but also the „dissolving“ part, which heavily depends on the surface volume of the ice, but also the surface structure. I know I am overthinking this. But then again … 25% 🤔

Thanks. I do not see really where he gets the 25% dilution from … Seems a bit random, but I’ll calculate myself one of these days.

Umm 🙄 … guilty as charged ?

How do you calculate the dilution imparted by shaking/stirring it with ice ?

I used 68 oC for 24h with great effect, but for the ease of timing I use 70 oC for 18h now …

I remember a particular JV negotiation with a large state-owned company near Chongqing. Before the banquet at night our hosts insisted we drink each about 500 mL of room temperature drinking yoghurt „to protect your stomach“. I was impressed, because I was expecting a rather spicy Sichuan dinner* and thought it is very thoughtful. But my translator assured me that this was only to counteract the copious amounts of alcohol that they would „force“ us to drink later. Unfortunately for them, after a few obligatory rounds of ice-cold red wine they left the choice of the hard liquor to us. It seems the drinking yoghurt did not protect their stomachs against Chivas Regal … —- * and it was

I was under the impression that when you want to get some gyros in the US, you will get almost exclusively the uniform loaf derived variety, and not the stacked Greek version. That doesn't mean you can't get it anywhere else* on occasion, but certainly not as the standard. However, in Europe most of the gyros joints have been replaced by Döner selling ones. Döner is not made from pork and allowed to have a certain percentage of minced meat in the skewer, so is moves into the "American gyros" direction. Adding on that, I don't see the necessity for the "unfortunately" expression ... I think it is a tasty product that serves its purpose, at least in the version I made. Not an elite gourmet food (neither is the Greek gyros), and sure you can always hide anything in a minced meat product, but that would be the fault of the producer/vendor, not of the product itself. --- * Though not in Germany (anymore), as the term "Gyros" is protected by law. They would need to sell it under a different name.