The Old Foodie

Amen to that one, sister. Taking things too seriously is often taking thing too far in many walks of life, I think. And perhaps there should be no scoring of runs, goals, hits etc in any sport except at a professional level. Good concept, Carrot Top

Dessert soup - Now there's an idea worth more exploring. I have a recipe for chocolate soup somewhere, and another for coconut soup (historic recipes of course) - and one day I intend to make both and pour them simultaneously into each half of the bowls in that arty way that restaurants do it. Chocolate-Coconut Soup. How good would that be? [Oops - can I count chocolate as a vegetable? that's probably pushing our definition too far, Yes?]

Maybe the way to think of this is that each of your 10 steps are not one-after-the-other progress, but more like individual skills that you "tick off" - so that your "7" might have a different mix from my "7".

I can't tell you that. That's up to you to decide. But with a piece of parsnip cake alongside I'd probably be pretty happy. ← How about dosed with sherry and served bottom-up? Carrot Pudding. Take a pint of Cream, and two penny Loaves grated, and as much raw Carrots grated; eight eggs, but half the whites, a Nutmeg grated, a little Sack [sherry] and Rose-water, half a pound of Butter melted, and as much Sugar as you think fit, two spoonfuls of Flower; stir it well together, it must be pretty thin, put it in a Dish butter’d, let it bake a little above an hour, turn it out of the Dish with the bottom upward; serve it up with Butter and Sugar. (1705 recipe) Sorry, couldnt resist it.

I dont think we have to take this idea too seriously. I think it is a great idea for a thread - I am sure the idea is to provoke discussion, not end up with absolute definitions. Is it? For myself, I am a sturdy 7, can sometimes manage an 8, and sometimes I wing it and turn out a decent impromptu cake (pastry I do pretty well for a non-professional I am told). So do I average an 8? . To me, one major difference between an amateur and a professional is that the professional is much more consistent in what he/she turns out, whereas the rest of us can have good-cook days and abysmal-cook days.

I think the heady excitement of veges for breakfast and dessert has done something to my brain. About an hour ago I posted (or thought I posted, or posted but accidentally deleted, or something) a post specially dedicated to you - Carrot Top. I cant find it now, so I guess I stuffed up (it is pre-sherry time, but the sun is perilous close to the yard-arm now, so I can receive therapy) Here it is again, more or less. I was browsing Cassell's Dictionary of Cookery (1870's) which is extraordinarily comprehensive and great Victorian fun. I came across this, which is very topical: Carrot Cheesecakes. Boil a moderate-sized carrot until tender. Pound it fine in a mortar, and pass the pulp through a fine hair sieve. Mix with it an ounce of oiled butter, two dessertspoonfuls of washed currants, two tablespoonfuls of sugar, half a nutmeg grated, a tablespoonful of fresh curd, and a well-beaten egg. Line some patty-pans with good puff paste, half fill them with the mixture, and bake in a good oven for twenty minutes. Also on the sweet side, there are Carrot Fritters, Carrot Pudding (baked or boiled) and Carrot, Sweet ( a sweetened and creamy puree to serve with "toasted sippets". Janet

That was quick Karen! I was just about to log out and go to work. I have several recipes with potatoes - chocolate cake, coconut ice etc; and beetroot pudding was a WW II recipe to save sugar; there were lots of carrot recipes too - carrot jam for example. This is going to be fun. I'll catch up with you all this evening (or in the morning, whichever applies to you) Janet

I guess I have to respond to that apparent challenge Carrot Top! The 'standard meal' as we think of it today (two or three or more separate dishes served sequentially, progressing from light to heavier and ending with sweet) is called 'service a la russe' and is a nineteenth century phenomenon - lots and lots of reasons for the evolution from 'service a la francaise' which was essentially the medieval method of several courses each with many dishes sweet and savoury all put on the table at once , then removed and replaced with another mutitude of dishes. I can summarise some of the reasons but I dont think it would fit here! As for the vege-fruit thing - the botanists are quite clear which is which. A fruit is "The seed of a plant or tree, regarded as the means of reproduction, together with its envelope; spec. in Bot. ‘the ripe pistil containing the ovules, arrived at the state of seeds’ [OED]. This means that a strawberry is not a true fruit, it is what the botanists call a 'pseudocarp' - each of the 'seeds' is technically a strawberry fruit, the red fleshy bit is a glorified receptacle. The rest of us who are not botanists have developed the convention of calling it a vegetable if we tend to use it more in a 'savoury' context . There was an interesting case in the USA in 1893 in which the courts decided that the tomato was a vegetable. This is an extract from a blog post I did on it After a six-year battle a U.S. court decided on this day [May 10th] in 1893 that the tomato was a vegetable. This was in complete disregard for the science of botany, many experts, and numerous dictionaries, but with complete and touching regard for “the common language of the people”, culinary convention (“any plant or part thereof eaten during the main dish is a vegetable … If it is eaten at any other part of the meal it is a fruit”) and, not surprisingly, the economics of the tomato trade. The problem had started with the Tariff Act of 1883, which placed 10% duty on imported vegetables but not fruit. In the interest of raising revenue, the NY Customs department declared the tomato a vegetable. The ruling was challenged in 1887 by an importer attempting to recoup duty paid on tomatoes brought in from the West Indies. Six years later the decision was finally made, and he lost. The definition of vegetable is a broad one - any part of any plant eaten as food could be included [perhaps it is a non-fruit part of a plant] - it is our convention that makes veges savoury things on the whole. Sticking within this convention, with pumpkin a 'vegetable' then pumpkin pie would be dessert vege. How about the Asian sweet bean things? Is that another thread? "Veges for Dessert?" Over to you Karen.

Hello Lady T That 'poverty casserole' sounds great! There's nothing wrong with canned beans and corn - we cant always plan a day in advance to soak and cook the dried ones. I wont complain if you do post the recipe.

Good Ideas, Thanks Folks. A lot of these could include at least one of the half-cups of veges. I love the idea of soup for breakfast!

Sugar, labelled as breakfast cereal.

Some good ideas here folks. I dont have a problem eating veges anytime, and wanted ideas I could suggest to the unadventurous, very 'traditional' eaters. As lots of people dont seem to want to 'cook' at breakfast, so I guess suggesting they cook extra veges at night to put in their omelette is the way to go. Pontormo - I love your potato idea. MIght just go an try it now - with an egg on the side.

Does the freshness of the eggs make a difference to how well they whip up? I seem to remember that it does, but I cant remember if it is eggs that are too fresh or eggs that are a bit old are the problem. Perhaps the bit of egg yolk gets the blame. Perhaps a bit of egg yolk in the whites is more likely if the eggs are too fresh or too old, and the yolk got the blame.

I was thinking of dishes where vegetables predominate. Not fruit - it seems to be easy to include in breakfast - as juice, or dried fruit on cereal etc, even if someone doesnt want fresh fruit (silly people). Mushrooms and tomatoes (botanically not vegetable, but culinarily used as such) are good ideas. Potato seems to me to be an underused option - after all, we are used to carbs at breakfast, aren't we?

I am interested in your thoughts and ideas on vegetables for breakfast. I know that Asians do this well, so I am interested in ideas that fit the European tradition. My interest is two-fold. It goes without saying (or I wouldn’t be on eGullet!) that I am eternally interested in food and cooking (and I love vegetables, although remain to be convinced about okra, for which I await the attack … or the convincing … ). Secondly, I am interested from a professional point of view. I spend a lot of time talking to patients about nutrition (frequently feeling as a voice in the wilderness, but one must not give up ….). The National Health and Medical Research (NHMRC) guidelines (Australian, but I think they are similar elsewhere) recommend for adults 2 serves of fruit a day and 5 of vegetables. What constitutes a standard single serve of vegetables is: 1 cup of raw leafy vegetables half cup of other vegetables, cooked or raw 150mL of vegetable juice The reality is that most people eat most of their vegetables with their evening meal, and I suspect very few would eat 2 ½ cups at that meal (certainly not the ones who make me feel like the ‘voice in the wilderness’). I also suspect that in spite of claims about ‘salad sandwiches’and the like, that not much in the way of veges is consumed at the average worker office lunch. I’d love to be able to make some more concrete suggestions when I try to encourage more vege eating. What ideas do you have, working within that European tradition, of veges for breakfast? The ones that spring to mind are: Baked beans. Bubble and Squeak (and variations thereof). Those German-ish potato pancakes which are fantastic except in their bastard, grease-loaded offspring of Hash Browns. I look forward to your ideas. Janet

I was just looking for another recipe to use in a blog post, and came across this, in Cassell's Dictionary of Cookery (circa 1870's) Beer Soup (German Method) Simmer two quarts of milk beer (it should not be bitter) with the thin rind of a lemon, a few cloves, and a stick of cinnamon, sweeten with sugar, and add it through a sieve to the yolks of sx well-beaten eggs and half a pint of cream. Whilst pouring into the tureen, stir it to a froth with a wire whisk. The beer should be very hot, without boiling, before it is stirred with the eggs. Serve hot with toast. Also has Beer Soup with Caraway Seeds, Beer Soup with Milk, and Beer Soup with Sago (which also has brandy or rum added). The sort of soup you have when you really want custard I guess, or egg-nog, or posset or caudle. What fun

Walnut beer bread. Great with cheese.

I always wear an apron - it means I can cook with gay abandon and not even think about my clothes. I have quite a few very utilitarian ones, but I am going to get myself (or make myself if I can find the time) a few of the retro 50's sort that are in a lot of the gift shops now.

Plastic bags are being phased out at a lot of supermarkets here in Brisbane. We are all being encouraged to buy re-useable totes. But - I recently read that cotton is not at all environmentally friendly - takes up a huge percentage of the world's pesticide use, and a lot of water. I cant remember where I read about it, but there is some info <a href="http://www.i-sis.org.uk/GMCFATW.php">HERE<a/>

Or you could make savoury mini-muffins (the bite-sized kind); I sometimes do them with cheese, and use tomato juice as the liquid; sometimes add chopped sun-dried tomatoes, or chives, or olives, or ...... They pack and travel well. They are great straight from the oven, but they re-heat (microwave) better than frittatas if you want them warm. I just had an idea - how about some grated potato in them and curry flavour.

This is a very old issue - Frederick Accum published his "A Treatise on Adulterations of Food, and Culinary Poisons Exhibiting the Fraudulent Sophistications of Bread, Beer, Wine, Spiritous Liquors, Tea, Coffee, Cream, Confectionery, Vinegar, Mustard, Pepper, Cheese, Olive Oil, Pickles, and Other Articles Employed in Domestic Economy" in 1820. It is available at <a href="http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/19031">Gutenberg</a> There is some REALLY scary stuff in there! Reading it makes you realise that we have made progress. We just have to keep chipping away at the issues. The Internet is a great tool for improving accountability. [edited to fix a typo]

I loved this post. Much here worthy of thought, Janet. Deep thought. Obviously some tests need be done. . ← Karen: I do hope you also read The Mens Answer to the Coffee Petition (same site). Even more deep thought. Such witty 17th century debate. We could learn much (and not just about coffee).

It may be highlighted in pink in my original post, but I doubt if you'll find any mention of food in the text that pops up under Thomas Gloning's name. It appears to be an obstetric and gynae ultrasound text. Edited to add - the pink highlighting disappeared after I posted this???? Did it know I posted it???

re: Coffee Thomas Gloning has a great collection of Culinary and Dietetic Texts on his site <a href="http://homepage.univie.ac.at/thomas.gloning/ctc.htm">CLICK HERE</a>. Go to the list of early texts on tea and coffee. The Women's Petition against coffee is hilarious - complaints that it made their men impotent ("They come from it with nothing moist but their snotty Noses, nothing stiffe but their Joints, nor standing but their Ears")

Dear v.gautam If you look at the time of my post you will see that at the time I was writing it (a long pause in the middle to see to my husband who is ill) I had not seen your post, so if I have offended it was purely inadvertent. I have re-read my words and do not understand how they have been read as in any way being dismissive of your obvious expertise. I have, in fact, enjoyed your previous posts as coming from someone with clear appreciation, love and understanding of the cuisine of your country of origin. I grew up in post-war England, with a father who served in India, so my own background has given me personal exposure to Anglo-Indian cuisine - which I do feel is (now) a distinct cuisine, in the same way as is Creole in the south of the USA, which you pointed out yourself. I have always felt that the eGullet forums are a superb educative experience, so if this particular thread has caused "those who are truly knowledgeable about Indian food to have abandoned this forum" then I think that is truly sad, and not in the true spirit of eGullet. merrybakers first post was quite clear that the information was for those who "wish to duplicate the taste of Indian food as its served in British Indian restaurants" - which is a perfectly valid topic. If it has spurred a debate on regional Indian cuisine, or its bastardisation by the British, or Ango-Indian cuisine as a cuisine in its own right, or where to get the best balti in Birmingham - so much the better!