Steve Klc

No pin. I don't disagree with much that has been written here already--and don't feel that there is any one inviolate way to do this, but I don't roll out my dough at all. drop your ball in flour and smack it down on the countertop. making a noise is key. I'm sure there is a reason, scientifically speaking, having to do with deflating the air bubbles trapped in a crystalline network of gluten, but it really doesn't matter. just throw it down hard and you'll feel better. I throw it down hard on marble or stainless, not the peel yet. I just use my hands and finger tips to flatten the ball of dough, line up your 8 firm fingertips and begin pressing into the center of the raised ball of dough to flatten it and rotate it a bit as you press down. It's a lot easier to see someone do this than it is to describe it. Keep the edges fat and fluffy. Let your fingertips define evenly the size of the edge and the thickness of the crust you want. Let rest under a towel for awhile. Then I pick up the dough by the thick edges like Jinmyo and let it hang--let gravity work for you as you hear alot in pastrymaking--pulling apart a bit to stretch and rolling it around once--hung vertically. Then I, too, roll it around my fists and gently stretch apart. This is again one of those "feel" things--just do it a few times with a pizza parlor's dough (so you can eliminate the fact that your own dough is at fault) and you'll see what the proper feel is not to pull holes in it. Then I put the stretched dough on the peel which has been sprinkled with cornmeal and build the pie there. Steven is right on with oven temps--I seriously do 500 degrees for at least 30 mins before it goes in. I had an uncle who was a cook and actually took a job in a famous pizzeria just to learn how to do the dough and I remember what he showed me, even though that was 15 years before I ever went to cooking school. "The Italian Baker" is a great reference, especially because it talks about making the doughs in different machines, like the food processor, the Kitchenaid, whatever. When I made my own pizza dough, I did the Cuisinart method from this book without a problem. My stone is on the floor of my oven and I like a blackened crust--if you don't, put the stone higher up in the oven rather than lower the temperature setting. And this applies to thin crust pizzas, not deep dish which isn't pizza. Deep dish pizza is like white chocolate to thin-crust pizza as dark chocolate.

For comparison, my shortbread cookie is 430g butter, 250g 10X, 1 T vanilla extract, pinch salt and 585g cake flour--10 minutes at 190 C (375 F).

Try your recipe, do everything the same--but after you prepare the dough, roll it into a log (the diameter should be about an inch to 1.5" max) and wrap in plastic and then refrigerate. You could also paint the log with egg wash and roll the log in granulated sugar before you wrap it up in plastic wrap. Let rest for 4 hours in the fridge, remove the plastic, slice 1/4" thick discs with a sharp paring knife and bake as usual. Report back. Do not let them "color" too much. Freezing the wrapped dough, then slicing while still frozen might help, too.

Simon, I wasn't aware Americans loved London, but if they did, do you think it is at all because they have an affection for eating out there? I doubt it, perhaps others could weigh in on this point. But you are right on the mark with "the sense of other," at least in my case. I am blown away by the depth, density and diversity of European cultures, and quite taken aback by their history. When the food is at a high level and a culture of appreciating food is apparent, and evolving, I am disarmed and charmed. France and Italy make me feel especially inadequate for not speaking their languages. I get by solely because of my knowledge of kitchens and food--and am constantly reminded of how much I have yet to learn. I am less enamoured of peripheral, nascent American cities of the sort you mention--but perhaps that has to do with the fact that for me, that "sense of other" is still forming and in flux--and it is an open question which way the pendulum swings. For me, there is more to "sense of other" than something simply being "new." I think this might be what Adam is getting at by "context." I'd take Paris, Bologna, Tours, Rimini (where I've been recently) anyday. Until 9/11, I was never so touched on our shores as when I saw the bombed out central cores of European cities--take Rimini as one example--where a modern city has built up around the rubble and remains of WWII. Rather than grubby, I find Paris remarkably clean and safe. I am also amazed that you find Paris slow--I've find it flexible and adaptive. (The outlying areas are another story.) You certainly are more likely to linger and reflect in Paris, especially over food, but certainly this is not a negative. If only the southern US cities you've mentioned were on a slightly higher refresh rate than blackstrap molasses.

I originally thought this was a trick question. Who would willingly go to any diner often enough to have a solid favorite, or even be in a position to compare them? I did have a good breakfast, espresso and service in that cute diner in Chelsea but probably wouldn't go back for food that didn't involve eggs and sauteed potato things. Maybe this place can't measure up to your youth, Steven, because you aren't going there at 2AM after the bars close--isn't that the real role of diners?

Thank you Miss J--a reply like that is the reason why I tried to get project to name names, to list the dozen Chinese cooking books he hasn't had success with and found wanting for his needs. The value in threads like this is that a community can weigh in with recommendations rather than paint negatively with a broad brush. Since most of project's favored books seem to be dated, I wondered immediately if he cooked from Craig Claiborne & Virginia Lee's now-out-of-print Chinese cookbook or the 1966 "Thousand Recipe Chinese Cookbook" by Gloria Bley Miller or the 1982 "Modern Art of Chinese Cooking" by Barbara Tropp yet--let alone other sources. And thank you for the tip on Dunlop.

Cabrales--was it Moet & Chandon Nectar Imperial you snuck in? I bet it would have gone quite well with the cherries. Not many people realize it can be had in the small bottle. I know it is not on your preferred list--but Nectar Imperial is one of very few champagnes good with dessert. And there are shoulder-slung insulated wine bags I have seen that resemble handbags, albeit not as stylish as the ones you undoubtedly are seen with. The only movie theater I would not bring food or beverages into is the Angelika.

worm--how important is it to impress your date with an ambience or setting--rather than with the level of food, wine and service for this particular dinner?

The Place? Top of the Tower? is that what's getting high marks over at new york.citysearch.com? what's citysearch.com like anyway, I haven't been yet? I'm going to wait until we start discussing nice places that aren't French, aren't bistros, don't have yucky decor--what's that leave, Craft Bar?

There was one line in Vivin's report that I found particularly telling: the chef was a partner in the restaurant. Rarely does a chef have this power and security in any restaurant, let alone an Indian one. In my limited experience I have seen talented Indian chefs and kitchen workers terribly mistreated and taken advantage of--underpaid, not paid, salary held in arrears in a modern form of indentured servitude, tax and benefits neither with-held nor reported, overworked by working a full day, followed by an hour or two nap on site and then having to put in a full night, all made possible by the ability of an owner to hold visa or sponsorship issues over the heads of the employees--and that says nothing of the way illegal rather than sponsored immigrants are treated. From talking to many of these kitchen workers and waiters in New York, this seems not only to be par for the course but endemic across all price points. All of this affects how kitchen teams function and has a negative impact on the product served. Often, much more emphasis is spent on the front of the house at the expense of the back of the house--where one would think the highest quality ingredients, fragrant spices, delicate teas and proper staffing exists. Again, in my limited experiences, I wonder if it is this lack of professionalism that holds Indian cooking back from truly being perceived as properly "haute?" And perhaps Bukhara is following a different, more Western model, in recognizing the value inherent in making the chef a partner.

Be careful what you wish for Lesley.

I have an inexpensive rectangular stone 16.5" by 14.5" by 1/2" that has handled everything thrown at it with aplomb, has never been washed, just scraped. Liza's suggestion of keeping it in the oven all the time is astute--it helps everything bake better--by either evening the heat out or concentrating it, depending on what you need. The more you move the stone, the more likely it will be to break. Just leave it in. I do 500 degrees, corn meal, wooden peel as others. I also buy all my dough from a local Italian joint so I don't have to make it myself. Just defrost a ball and you're good to go. May I also recommend the new $2.95 grater "kit" from IKEA--perfect for frequent pizza makers--it's oval shaped, comes with two flat metal grating lids that fit snugly on top of an oval "Rubbermaid" like container. This system allows you to grate good mozzarella ergonomically and efiiciently, collect it in the container and it even comes with a snug plastic lid--so you can keep the whole kit in the fridge airtight. Best yet--there are non-stick tabs on the base of the container so it doesn't even slide on your countertop when you grate. The metal grating lids wash up fine in the dishwasher. This product gets my nod for "Best new culinary product of the month."

It shouldn't surprise me that an incredibly interesting thread pops up here on the very day Suvir joins the eGullet team! Thank you to Suvir and wingding and Steven for thoughtful posts so far. I obviously agree "it is restaurant high-cuisine that acts as the benchmark in the Western world." I don't find it unusual that "Indian restaurants have often looked back at home cooking to find recipes that would excite a diner." If it is also true that "most Indian home chefs have learned to cook under the unstructured tutelage of mothers, grand mothers"--perhaps it is worth reminding that many of the great French masters, especially in the provinces, did so as well, in reaction to the haute cuisine going on in Paris. And that, in turn, the next generation of French chefs were able to build and re-invent and re-order what was going on in both of these evolving restaurant traditions. Could it be, perhaps, that the truest examples of Indian-influenced "Haute cuisine" have been developing--but developing abroad, outside of India--because that is where the talent has been willing to experiment and where the audience has been more willing to embrace it? Is it also possible that professional cooking in India has yet to adequately embrace and reconcile this parallel track of "home cooking" as the French did? That in India a different timeline is in effect--and that not surprisingly, things just shook out a whole lot faster in France. Can it be that we are just waiting for the same issues of haute cuisine and cuisine bourgeosie to fold in, against and around themselves in India--as they already have in France and by extension the rest of the Western world? Another issue I'm curious about: how influential will the fusiony, French-Indian constructs developed here in the US, like those of Floyd Cardoz and the late Raji Jallepalli, be on the professional and home cooking of India?

Jinmyo--Malawry has a fetching description of a dinner at Laboratorio here: http://www.geocities.com/malawry/Laboratorio.html My problem with Donna is that he found it a little too easy to coast in DC as a celebrity chef, allowed others to do the cooking for him for too long, and paid too little attention to his ever-burgeoning array of off-price eateries. For too many years, Phyllis Richman and others gave him a free pass and by and large, the DC media and dining clientele bought into it. My reaction to the debut of the Laboratorio concept is that it's about time. If the same media going ga-ga now over Laboratorio had ever speculated why DC didn't have more serious, sustained efforts like this, we might be on the leading edge rather than always behind the curve.

Tony--thanks for picking up on my "opera-on-cd-ranking" analogy. I do see that exercise not only as possible, but valid and helpful. There are lots of buyers guides to cd's, right? I wonder if exploring it a bit might help ferret out--in a dispassionate way--what the real issues for you are here regarding Parker. You have an expert who listens to all currently available recorded versions of an opera--live and studio. Why he does it is not an issue, is it? Our critic fleshes that assessment out by comparing how the recorded version captured the experience live, reflects on historical precedent, trends, talent, technical qualities, reverance, whatever. He'd have to weigh and balance all those factors you mentioned--not the least of which would be the vocal strength and lyrical ability of the soloists, the style of direction, etc. How the cd sounds--because all the talent in the world lined up behind a microphone is wasted if the transfer is not at a high level. Good and bad most certainly co-exists on individual cd's--and is weighted accordingly. Those with less good are assigned a lower ranking or score in some way to quantify the relative success, the total experience of each performance Our critic, after a while, establishes a criteria--his criteria--for making these assessments--to which one is free to accept, reject, debate or disagree with--but a criteria to which that critic nonetheless adheres to in assigning a ranking--and regardless of the numerical ranking system employed--you still end up with an assessment, a personal ranking based on a score--of the merits of all of the performances, relative to that critic and that criteria, right? Lots of other critics do the same thing--in their own way--and buyers in stores sometimes turn to the critics for purchasing advice. (I know I have--I have about 300 opera cd's including at least 10 different versions of my favorite Mozart operas. But that's beside the point.) I'm not going to go on anymore--but how is this effort any different than what Parker does with wine? All the other concerns about his power, compensation, influence, criteria, relevance, usefulness, bias et al are just that, concerns, aren't they? Issues to be debated and dissected and disagreed with--sometimes vehemently. But the exercise itself that Parker has undertaken is valid, don't you think? If so, then it's the external reaction to the man, to the exercise, that is the problem.

Malawry--your post made me think about whether manufacturers of these things were intentionally not providing adaptability--to build in some obsolescence, keep the price low and prompt consumers to buy more than one machine--instead of giving us one good, multi-functional, non-stick, reversible machine that will last--of course at a higher price. Like you, I suspect, I would love to find something large--say a foot square--that could do 4 waffles--and reverse to a flat surface to press out panini and grilled cheese and lightly seared flat things. Ideally it would also have a variable control knob for heat. We must find this thing! It's now a sentimental cause for me because when I was in college 20 years ago--I lived for a semester cranking out delicacies from my little Presto Burger Maker to dorm-wide acclaim. Of course, if it were stainless steel with Art-Deco styling, even better.

Hey Ron--Consumer Reports just did their own evaluation and ranking of wine--perhaps we should compare and contrast with Parker?

Tony--do you think it is possible to rank all performances of a specific opera available on CD?

Perry--thanks for a no less eloquent addition, it was much appreciated by yet another Steve. Post more often.

Then you must try the infusion trolley at Petrossian Paris with Serge.

Brija--to pull out one of your examples, a classic way to serve du Puy lentils--those tiny emerald green wonders--is in a vinaigrette with a few crisply sauteed lardons. I find the pairing ethereal and is another example where meat is used only as an accent, a supporting flavor and to provide textural contrast. I have yet to have another lentil dish rise to this height--do you think it's possible you are missing something in this case that cannot be duplicated or compared properly? Yes, you certainly can have the lentil salad w/o lardons--as you have newly discovered as you lost your taste for meat--but it is just a good lentil salad. Do you wish you had had the lardon version before you switched away from meat consumption? Previously unappreciated variety and unexplored choices have opened up to you--but have any of the dish descriptions on this thread, especially those of the poetic cabrales-- given you pause to consider that you may still be missing out on the highest, transcendent pairings of vegetarian elements combined with meat and shellfish and seafood?

jhlurie--I wasn't trying to suggest an order, or a sequence, just following up on the door cabrales opened. I'm in no position to comment on a "proper" order--that's too personal--nor suggest which animal might present the biggest obstacle. I just tried to add to the complexities that might await, and for some, a very well-cooked shank might present less of a visual obstacle than blood. Your observation is well taken by me and I do agree with you.

I have never been to Prague, though I am Czech, but I had an interesting conversation yesterday with the chef--the quite talented and reflective Douglas Anderson--who opened the 4 Seasons Hotel fine dining restaurant there, which for some reason is "Italian." Not pizza/spaghetti and meatballs Italian, but as authentic and regionally-based Italian as possible given the cosmopolitan and continental types that would probably be staying at the hotel. In essence, dumbed down just enough to appeal to a wide range of German and American and other business types and also tourists newly driven to discover the country and take advantage of a strong dollar. Breakfast was to be American, lunch and dinner Italian, and room service a mix of the familiar, safe and generic. A chef from Italy was brought in, the rest of the kitchen staff was Czech, many of the builders and craftsmen were German, a talented pastry chef from the Milan 4 Seasons (who trained under Frederic Bourse, one of the best if not the best pastry chef in Italy) was brought in to consult on the "Italian" desserts--and Douglas's job was to oversee, whipping the whole team into shape in order to set up a functioning system. Somehow they all managed to communicate just fine (only Douglas spoke English) and Douglas feels that Czech beer was in part responsible--since all were able to gather around and bond over the mastery of the product, with even the Germans nodding in agreement. As I said, I've never been, but I'd suggest it's worth a try if one were looking for a fine dining experience. (I hear the Ritz has plans to open a property as well in Prague.) I have a very favorable impression of Douglas's thoughtful cooking--he's now heading up a revitalized team at the DC 4 Seasons Hotel and prior to that, garnered acclaim at the Vancouver 4 Seasons. Rocco DiSpirito once worked for Douglas, so too did the former pastry chef of Daniel Boulud, Thomas Haas. And by the way, during his stay he didn't find any cooking of note in Prague worth a detour. (Edited by Steve Klc at 6:41 pm on Feb. 8, 2002)

Indiagirl--as if cabrales has not given you a wonderful sensory checklist with which to start, allow me to add two more and possibly correct a mistaken assumption on your part: 1) Fresh shellfish and crustaceans, handled well, do not smell--in fact, one will often find these items, be they crabs or oysters, described as smelling clean, fresh, of the sea, whatever. They actually do have a smell--but the range and depth of their raw smell is very slight, very hard to delineate and detect. 2) apropos of cabrales' little bird bone fascination--with which I concur--may I add the sensation of crunching through a soft-shell crab and eating salted shrimp, shell-on, that have been deep-fried Vietnamese style. 3) If the blood/juice angle is initially off-putting with regard to meat, perhaps a long, slow and fully-cooked cut like a lamb shank is the way to go initially--especially since a shank is often so synergistically cooked and paired with vegetables.

Robert--here's the best writing on Pangaud that I've come across, by Brett Anderson, once a DC-based food writer. I believe Brett has since moved on to New Orleans and become a restaurant critic there. http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/archives/cover/2000/cover0512.html Was it Aurora you might remember him from--circa 1985? Here's a passage I found particularly telling--in light of this thread: "I am a recovering alcoholic," Pangaud says. "New York was not the right place for me. So I tried to find a slower pace and a better lifestyle, and Washington is giving me that. It's not as sophisticated or as glamorous as Paris and New York. But it's a much better quality of life for a chef." (Edited by Steve Klc at 7:47 pm on Feb. 5, 2002)