Steve Klc

Patrice--would you elaborate on the construction and service of the dessert--and whether you thought the icewine pairing was appropriate? I have had that particular wine and am curious how well it worked, on your palate, with gianduja and milk chocolate.

On that note of measurements and damn pickiness--or was it damn measurements and...I'm wondering winodj if you get cable and are able to watch Nigella on Style. or E!? If so, do. What about the Food Network? There's another show I'd recommend that could help--it's called 30 Minute Meals and is hosted by a cutie-pie--Rachael Wray. Nothing pretentious, nothing advanced. If you look beyond the perkiness, you could gain alot of confidence from this show--she's not a chef and seems to have but moderate skills as a cook. There's a real world "hey, if I can do this, really anyone can" approach that is entirely disarming and believeable. And often, all it takes for a novice cook to get going is the confidence that comes from realizing it is ok to dream about learning how to cook and that cooking is not this daunting, overwhelming task. If you have FoodTV, start here. And keep in mind the famous quip from John and Karen Hess in their excellent "The Taste of America" about Julia Child: "She's not a cook, but she plays one on TV." You can play one, too.

Thanks Damian--is FoodTV your default for background noise when you're studying or around the house? If it is what I think you're talking about, my wife and I were in it. We came in 5th that year. (Colleen is one of only three female pastry chefs ever chosen to compete.) I've talked a little about it on other threads. If it is not the US National event at Beaver Creek, that I've seen advertised on FoodTV lately (a repeat btw) then you might be talking about the World Pastry Cup, held in Lyon, sponsored by Valrhona chocolate. The US won the gold there, but the jointly produced US/Canada FoodTV production wasted alot of time on the Canadian team, which really didn't deserve the attention. Both specials were well done and give you a peek behind the scenes and a good sense of the stress and danger involved. Incidentally, you wouldn't know it from the mostly unknowing local media--but the DC area has been very well represented in the US event--of the 36 pastry chefs chosen--with the diverse skills to do this under pressure--6 were from DC, including the overall winner in 2000, Ewald Notter. Of course, none of the 6 work in restaurants. The Washington Post saw fit to cover the Bocuse d'Or competition instead--the international cooking competition for sous chefs in Lyon--not in any way showcasing the best chefs in their countries or even cities. The Post ran an exhaustive, well-written series on the female sous chef from Kinkeads, ironically, who was the US competitor. Colleen and I have a few pictures of the pastry event on our site and links to find out more.

Alright Roger--how do you do the steak--in a saute/frying pan on the stovetop? under the broiler? in the George Foreman? what about the chicken breast? and the risotto--are you doing this with canned stock, from directions on the box? sauteeing a little onion first? do you have a microwave?

Wilfrid--maybe we need to call Steven Shaw in on this--or Tommy, the super web surfer--but the Times appears to have changed the way you can search for restaurants--no longer giving you the star parameters to search by. It used to be so obvious--I wonder if providing such easy access to multi-starred properties hindered advertising revenue for the site? Possibly something more nefarious afoot? Is it my just my sense, or are many reviews now behind the wall of a premium archive? Weren't longer excerpts from reviews made available in front of the wall previously? Or is this old news and we're just out of touch?

Thanks for the wonderful explication Wilfrid. The degustation sounds like a steal. You used to be able to go to the Times website and sort by star ranking to get a list of all so-starred restaurants. I haven't done it in awhile and will go there now to see if they've changed how or whether you can access this information. Be careful, though, to note the date of last review. Many are of the opinion that Mr. Grimes grades on a, shall we say, less-charitable bell curve than his predecessor--a 2 star under Grimes would be a 3 star under Riechl, etc.

Wilfrid--the desserts have much to recommend. Did you feel the meal was fairly priced? In your opinion, was the experience worth 2 or 3 stars--I believe Grimes gave it 2 last year, along with what seems like a hundred other restaurants. Do you recall the price of the degustation?

ahr--I'm glad to hear your report about Jacques. I've admired him for so long. He is also innovating in several areas worth drawing attention to--one, by using an expensive vacuum mixer, which allows him to extend shelf-life yet retain flavor naturally, without adding preservatives and two, by paying meticulous attention to hygiene. Did you know he had an automatic locking system installed in the staff restroom that requires hands to be washed with soap before opening the door? How were the menus priced and offered? Was there an actual "tasting menu?" What kind of foot traffic was there while you were there? And you mention sugar shock--were things a bit sweeter than your palate prefers?

Damian--good to have you drop back in. I think the question with regard to Kinkead's is not whether it is world class, certainly it is not. The question is whether it is "national" class--whether it (still) merits consideration as one of this country's elite restaurants apart from its DC location and competition. It swims as a big fish in a small, insular and often underwhelming pond--which is fine dining in DC--and to me, is much less relevant and less interesting than what is happening elsewhere. Not having a bad meal and performing solidly would seem to reinforce my point. And Roger, Rupperts remains an interesting, straightforward, uneven, dynamic, minimalist little place with very high aspirations--and capable of hitting very high notes. Just the kind of place elite food cities should have in abundance, battling it out. In order to be a world class food city, perhaps what we really need is a little more advocacy-oriented food journalism and less home town boosterism through rose-colored glasses.

Simon and Suvir and everyone--please feel free to discuss (and argue when necessary) with me on pastry and every thing else. I do appreciate the kind words but I am just a pastry chef--and "master" is a very relative, often specious term in cooking. We're all on a voyage of discovery here and I am not for stifling discussion--there is too much to be gained. I guess I'm stubbornly on the other side of the fence here by thinking we can compare and contrast here on this thread--I do not see it as unfair. I do think it is possible to say one thing is superior to another--as long as you define the context and basis for comparison--and for that to happen we have to have the facts, the history, the circumstances and shared experiences. Making a comparison is not the same thing as judging. It is potentially illuminating to get at root causes and differences--and Simon, I don't buy the Western vs. homeopathy comparison completely--yes they exist on parallel tracks, with different tenets, but they do meet and cross paths and enlighten each other--and perhaps we can do the same thing here. Remember, with food we can resort to our palate, taste and experience--which is inherently subjective--to draw a comparison. How much weight and significance we choose to assign to these distinctions is our own business--but should it disqualify the attempt? Just as a minor example, on another thread, prompted by Adam Balic, I drew a comparison to old Italian cookbooks and how they reduce milk in some custard recipes and then skim or strain away the skin that forms. I'm fascinated to hear from Suvir that some Indians cherish this process. And Suvir--thanks for the "secret" tip about adding almond flour to firni--but it begs the question--is it more common for savory chefs to produce the desserts or has there been a division at the highest haute levels into chef and "dessert chef," as you say, much like the historical French guild divisions between the two--as two separate professions? Also Simon, I ask you to reconsider your sense that "There is a tendency in this thread and indeed on this site to treat Indian food as if it is one type of cuisine. It is as vast and varied as european cuisine." If you re-read Suvir and others I cannot come away but think that we've all been very sensitive and explicit in talking about sources and experiences and our own personal limitations. I think we're very open to the wonders that all of Indian cooking can present--and your very informed perspective, Bangla or otherwise, is key. And, where does the dead cuisine thing come from? On one of those other threads--I speculated--to more knowledgeable sources--whether the notion of Indian haute cuisine was indeed developing more rapidly and interestingly abroad. If indeed true, I don't know why you feel that makes comparisons odious? Is it impossible to say that a cuisine, if not dead, is stalled or stuck? What about French cuisine near the end of the rigid reign and stifling nature of Escoffier? Surely that cuisine was in a rut, a sameness and then what happened--an explosion in new directions. And as if this is not too much of a stretch already--could that stalled cuisine, as Indian haute cuisine in India might be, also simultaneously be misunderstood by the West--as perhaps the West has yet to unlock all the glory of Indian cuisine? None of this mitigates against the value and riches of Indian cuisine--even if it were to be true. I see that our examination of Indian desserts is breaking into several categories: Homestyle within regions in India Restaurant-style in India Indian restaurants and dessert shops in London, NYC et al Indian-fusion attempts in London and NYC Recipes in cookbooks And as a few have mentioned--there is the concept of dessert vs. sweet snacks and candies to consider as well.

Liza--do expand on "incidental cuts" for pate?

I would also suggest it is advantageous to frame questions--and requests for advice--a little less broadly. Sometimes very general questions can be daunting. For instance winodj--what is "ordinary dinner food" to you? What dishes--however crude--have you made already and what did you think of them? What kind of food did you grow up with--and can you replicate those dishes--or are you looking to tweak those dishes because of perceived flaws? Do you have any cookbooks--and if so, have you had trouble following their instructions? (Which would not be a surprise, since so many use kitchenspeak.) Also, a big factor, how much time do you have to devote to this--how committed are you? What's your kitchen like equipment-wise? what utensils do you have already? do you have a full size oven or are you looking for quick hot sandwiches you can crank out of a toaster oven? It would be easier for us to help you if you were a little more specific.

Wingding--on your first point, I politely and gently disagree. It is very possible, and certainly revealing, to compare differences in "technique, ovens, cooking utensils, fuel sources, and refrigeration" for both Indian home and restaurant cooking, in both an historical and current context--with the French/Western model of desserts. It just can't be done quickly, or in one paragraph. By going beyond differences in ingredients and getting at the reasons why things are done the way they are--some will be cultural, some economic, some technological--therein lies a chance for greater understanding and appreciation. I hope you see the value in this and continue to participate, for you obviously have more to share. I can only share my own experience with you--that as I went back to the Middle Ages and researched how desserts were made initially in Europe and then how and why they evolved disparately as they did in countries like France and England and Italy from the 1500's through each proceeding century--it made me a stronger pastry chef in the present. Regarding the rice--I cannot say for sure I have used govindobog, because an Indian chef got several of the non-Basmati varieties for me, but they were all white, rounder and smaller grained, and for creamier applications I much preferred these. And yes there were subtle flavor differences, in addition to texture, but I felt these were lost once you added things like coconut, cardamom or saffron, even subtly. So you were left with a textural--a performance--difference.

B--an intermediate and less expensive step is to try using those cheap $15 Braun and Krups coffee grinders for spices before you go check out the Sumeet Multi Grind. (don't use the same one for coffee and spice grinding.) The biggest differences are that the Sumeet has a much more powerful motor, that can run longer without burning out, it's easier to clean, and it can run wet. Here's the link: http://www.sumeet.net/

In short, I think Indian desserts stink, that they not only are poorly executed but lack refinement and are often inherently flawed, especially if you view them in light of the dominant French or Western dessert framework. But, I think it would be much more helpful to try to view them on parallel tracks--first, assess Indian desserts on their own, appreciated in isolation or as achievable ideals--and then second, evaluate how they stack up alongside the French model and try to determine whether this exercise is even a valid comparison. It's often too easy just to say what something is not, than what it is or could be. I've had similar problems comparing and embracing other Asian desserts with ingredients like sticky rice, coconut, red azuki beans, green tea, palm sugar, and sesame seeds. But then you run into somebody like a Philippe Conticini--who thinks nothing of sprinkling exotic and complex spices, nuts, seeds on top of his desserts--and you realize it has been a very Asian concept all along--if we just opened our eyes and our possibilities. So let me clarify a bit. I've never been to India or London and am basing my sweeping indictment of Indian desserts solely on the examples I've had in: what passes for modern Indian-influenced restaurants of NYC, like Tabla, which had an American pastry chef and Surya, which Raji initially consulted for; classic NYC places like Dawat, Chola and Akbar, two unimpressive upscale Indian restaurants in Washington, DC--Bombay Club and Heritage India, cheaper restaurants, markets and specialized dessert shops in Indian communities in the outer boroughs of NYC and Iselin, NJ that serve primarily an Indian clientele and from what I've made from recipes in books. From what I saw, tasted and created--I could not make a case for the validity and viability of Indian desserts as they were--and in almost every instance the specific dessert and my dining experience would have been enhanced by some tweaking--some subtle, some drastic--more along the lines of the French/Western dessert model. Clearly reducing the over-arching sweetness, which actually hinders any appreciation of what these desserts could be, helped immensely. So after you get past the problems in dessert perception--if you know anything about Western desserts--and take the cloying sweetness, as Steven objects to, out of the picture, what are you left with? First--an incredible historical range of ingredients and flavors-- some exotic, some intoxicating, combined in incredible ways that puts the relative conservatism and rigidity of French dessert "flavors" to shame. This is, sadly, all too often matched by a failure to commit to use the highest quality ingredients, little fresh fruit, infrequent use of eggs, no chocolate; Second--techniques--many are traditional, time-consuming, poorly conceived and unrefined--and the technology employed is certainly unevolved; Third--dessert forms--mostly rustic and comfort-style, simple and simplistic, though still capable of generating interest and surprise on the palate. For me, perceived shortcomings are of complexity and integration--Steve Shaw says ”one dimensional” and ajay says “not as interesting or multifaceted”--and I suspect we're all talking about the same thing. There is often less interesting textural contrast, less delicacy, less refinement, "richness" is achieved in other ways rather than using cream and eggs or gelatin--all of which can't help but affect perceptions and hinder the ability to hit “western” highs--but this does not necessarily preclude good desserts. Part of the problem seemed to me that these desserts and sweets were being made by Indians for Indians within the confines of Indian communities--all of whom aimed too low. From reading along in this thread, however, I fear my ultimate contributions will be limited because, like Steven Shaw and others, I have not had worthy examples of the best Indian desserts--from those temples in India that Suvir writes so passionately and revealingly about. I can't help but feel that the practitioners of Indian desserts in this country have not revealed their secrets to me yet or don't have the talent or palate to do so. Suvir speaks eloquently that "the tastes and textures and forms that these desserts have, will thrill not only your palate, but awaken the senses in all ways. Indian desserts have had a very poor representation in the US. Simply because they are not always easy to prepare.” This gives me great hope would it be true. I can tell everyone jaggery is incredibly complex if you open your eyes to it--with nuances of flavor unknown in Western refined sugar. On the flip side, agar-agar is overused in many Bombay style sweets and jellies, too thick, too sweet with poor texture--inherent in the use of agar-agar rather than more subtle use of gelatin, pectin from certain fruits, in things like gelees and pate de fruits in the Western platform. Let's take a example, Suvir writes "It is rare to find well made rice pudding at a restaurant. Even in India it is a rarity.” I agree. I also experimented with several strains of Indian rice for use in a coconut panna cotta dessert--and no matter how I cooked the rice, I wasn't happy with the texture in the finished product. I ended up using an arborio superfino. Yet I knew Asian rices could be sublime--depending on how they were cooked or steamed, and that there were differences with Japanese sticky rice and Lao sticky rice, for instance. Add spices or nuts and you could easily turn this into something special. But then there is the whole reduced milk vs. sweetened milk vs. evaporated milk thing. I fear alot of shortcuts are taken here--as Suvir has already mentioned. Kheers and puddings with reduced milk are not puddings as Westerners know them--they don't usually contain eggs. They could in theory be good, I just haven't had a good one out. I have made a few kheers with pastas and grains where I've added coconut milk, jaggery, raisins, spices and ghee (repeat after me, ghee is good) and been quite happy--so I know it is possible. From my experimentation, the potential within Indian dessert framework is amazing: start with the fact that milk, almond milk or coconut milk, infused with jaggery and cardamom, reduced a bit, can be sublime--shave some pistachios over top, add some warmed dates or apricot confit, vary with a tiny bit of saffron in the beginning, a pinch of ground cashew or almond added like a spice. Sounds great, right? The Indian snack sweets kind of like grainy marzipan or fudge--if you get beyond the sweetness--could be viewed as acceptable candy but even the best examples I’ve had have poor texture and flavor compared to a good marzipan, machined with expensive equipment. (And we're not even talking yet about how marzipan is then used as an interesting component in candy and confectionery, enrobed in chocolate, etc.--that's another platform, another Western heirarchy.) On their face, the Indian candies I've had have not been well done--apart from sweetness and taste. I love Falooda--more drink than dessert--but only when I make it--with vanilla ice cream, rice noodle bits, subja seeds (weird slippery crunchiness after soaking) rose syrup and milk. Made according to recipes, or for an Indian clientele, it's too sweet and often undrinkable. Firni is simple and can be very pleasing--creamed rice flour in milk, thickened w/o egg and chilled--but if sugar or rose water is added with a heavy hand--to Indian taste or according to recipes--it's neither a pleasant nor fulfilling experience. If you've ever had a great creme brulee, with the contrast of its thin, burnt, crunchy, caramelized skin and luscious velvety (eggy) custard below-- it's really not hard to make the case that firni and other Indian puddings are not only different but also inherently inferior--inherently less interesting. And this might be part of the problem in appreciation across dessert platforms--you see in the French model creme brulee exists as a killer dessert in and of itself and also as but one component of a larger whole--one filling among several, perhaps, with different textures and consistencies and temperatures--on the same plated dessert. So some of the problem in appreciating Indian desserts may be that the structure and complexity of Western desserts has reached such high peaks--such complex possibilities--that the Indian examples simply have yet to evolve or strive in the same way. To sum up, I'd say the best Indian desserts I've had to date seem to be more interesting than good. And I would be eternally grateful to Suvir and others who could draw out the differences between Indian desserts available here vs. those desserts abroad. So let's open the floor up to kulfi (extremely charitably described as semifreddo) ras malai and gulab jamun et al.

And I find I'm in agreement with you entirely, Jinmyo. Now that I have an Indian-manufactured, powerful spice grinder--from JB Prince, of course--capable of grinding and pulverising whole spice and ingredient mixtures so quickly and precisely--both wet and dry--I no longer have any need for all the hand graters, zesters, grinders, electric coffee grinders I had lying around. The thing even chops nuts roughly or churns out nut butters, which I used to have to do in the Cuisinart. (I do still use the hand-held microplane zester for citrus zest and "shaving" pistachios, for instance, because I can't get what I want any other way.) Since trying the spice grinder, and adopting the immersion blender, and learning its diverse capabilities, I have not used any of my Cuisinarts or bar blender for a long time--for just the reason you mentioned. And, let's not forget budget is a big consideration, perhaps more so in professional kitchens than people realize. The immersion blender and spice grinder, combined, are much less expensive than a Cuisinart/bar blender combined and much more portable. And while this works for me--it isn't necessary for others, especially if all they need to do is split and scrape a vanilla bean now and then. The larger issue is to realize the take home messages that are really important--to consider how and why we use whole spices rather than pre-ground, stale stuff; that equipment is not necessarily a substitute for technique and dexterity; that "saving time" is not a substitute for understanding why you are being asked to do something a certain way; that there are usually ways to circumvent and overcome not having a certain piece of equipment, just like one can usually overcome not having a certain ingredient and substitute for it...and that all of this begins by not getting so stressed out by recipes and technology.

Patrice--did you chat with Laurent and Jean-Francois? did he do the foam in an iSi whipper or with an immersion blender? was the egg top cut cleanly/precisely--or rather roughly cut? also, did Laurent introduce his sous-chef and pastry chef to the crowd? Lesley C--did you enjoy the dinner, too?

B--I don't feel like you were over-enthusiastic and in fact, I was grateful for your post because it made me consider something in a way I hadn't before. I admired your brainstorming and ingenuity. Cooking evolves, so does technology, and it is only the misguided, or hopelessly nostalgic, who fail to embrace or appreciate the new doors that open as a result. It's just a part of the tension between professional and home cooking, chefs and food writers, high and low--and it's up to everyone to decide whether they'll walk through those doors. It should be obvious that you don't have to have any power tool to cream soup--but the best chefs constantly ask themselves "how can I do this cleaner, better and faster?" It is up to every chef and home cook to decide for themselves how important this approach is to them.

Luvfat--I am a mild fan of the 5 Guys location in Old Town, Alexandria and eat there about once a month, usually when I find myself near National Airport and am in the mood for a quick over-cooked meat fix. (That's Reagan National for anyone that doesn't live here.) Let's not get carried away here in typical uncritical Chowhound/Stern/Zagat-style: it's a pretty good burger, a decent grilled hot dog and at times very good fries, nothing more; quality is inconsistent, this location can have slow service and it's certainly not worth a special trip. I'm afraid it has jumped shark compared to any fond remembrance of days past. Unless you are the kind of person who makes special trips for burgers--and then by all means, if you happen to be there or haven't ever been there, fine. The Old Town location is enhanced by the fact that Alexandria is a veritable restaurant wasteland of underwhelming dining--only the Majestic Cafe gets my strong recommendation. I've never been to another 5 Guys location and haven't had much reason to go to Woodbridge.

Suvir--I should tell you right now I'm waiting for you to go first.

so, too, chocolate under the like sex, bacon category, no?

Adam--I wasn't necessarily thinking dessert, though all of those ideas could be adapted for dessert or for the cheese course or for savory amuse kind of things. I am one of those who leans away from sweet in dessert and delights in some sweet in savory applications. The Ducasse caramel tomato was savory. There is a honey/onion marmelade paired with tomato in the new (highly recommended) Kunz/Kaminsky book that might be an interesting model--and could easily be adapted to include Hydromel.

can't say I'm a fan of Williams-Sonoma, but I can tell you the key to your drill quest is finding those parts--the long rod and the different blades, and therein lies the rub. The best immersion blenders have 3 or 4 different blades and discs--that can be popped on and off the "stick"--that each do a different task--like blending, tearing, aerating gently and full out foaming. If you are just going to puree soup, any old blender will do, with only the one blade. Most blenders don't have a removeable stick--and of those that do, most couldn't be attached to a drill. One that I have used--the cheapest green and white $20 Braun model--has a wide enough "stick" that can be removed from the motorized part--and there is enough diameter inside the plastic housing to fit the metal rod onto a drill. Problem is, you can't buy this separately. (I tried to get "extras" from the manufacturer so I could keep one stick in white chocolate and one stick in dark chocolate and just switch the motor part around.) I guess you could use something like a paint stirring rod--designed for use with a drill--but then you'd need to attach blades somehow, which I wouldn't recommend for fear of flying off at high speed. The advantage of the blenders is that they are machined to safe tolerances, sealed and generally less noisy than a drill. When you think about it, even the good blenders (around $50) are pretty inexpensive. So even if you compare rpm's and watts and speeds--you are probably asking for trouble. Plus, I have a very cool immersion blender now that has an extremely comfortable, ergonomically molded handle or grip and an easily applied on/off lever--designed to be held that way in a "shaking hands kind of grip" (the Western ping pong grip) when used--unlike any drill that I am aware of. Like Steven says, chefs, especially pastry chefs, like gadgets and toys and shopping at the hardware store. But more importantly, we like using the right tool for the right task--even if that means we have to make a tool ourselves. I'd suggest the drill quest is not one of those times.

Adam--I wonder if it was a marmelade or a caramel reduction. I've cooked a dry caramel, deglaze with warmed skinned, seeded and diced tomatoes, reduce, cool. Lots of chefs are doing this now, Ducasse opened with a tomato caramel in NYC. (Elsewhere on eGullet, others have waxed poetic of the famous Passard tomato dessert, might give you a few ideas. It is quite "layered" with flavor and spice. It's explicated nicely in the Gopnik book.) Dry spices like cracked pepper, ground cinnamon and shaved nutmeg work--so too does adding small amounts of citrus zest (to the cooking caramel) and fruit puree (added either before or after the finished caramel). I've also added small amounts of candied kumquat or apricot confit sometimes, to add a little surprise to the tomato mixture, but then that starts to change things--and certainly is farther away from the Saveur magazine crowd.) For the goat cheese, I am less inclined to go with the nuevo-latino tomato pairings, like coconut, canteloupe, cilantro--that I have had otherwise enjoyed from Catalan and Spanish chefs in the US. Much thanks Wifrid for a wonderful post and yes, you are a lucky bastard. I, too, had a eerie feeling eating those eels after seeing their little black dot eyes.

Glenn--fair question, but for me it has nothing to do with ownership, independence or artsy films. I buy books from Amazon.com, rent DVD's from Blockbuster--and also willingly pay full price for books at local independent or specialized bookstores. The reason I have a different attitude about the Angelika is that it's the only theater I've been to that made a serious effort to provide more than mundane pretzels, hot dogs, popcorn, candy and soda. When I lived in SoHo I can't tell you the number of times I would get to the Angelika early, just to mill around with a real iced tea with lemon wedge, an espresso, a good nosh of a bagel or sandwich or whatever and peoplewatch on the steps out front. It was just one of those special things that makes you feel glad you are where you are. I'm sure all could be had better, though not necessarily cheaper, elsewhere. I wanted to reward the attempt, the effort and would do the same at my local megaplexes if ever given the chance, which is unlikely.