Steve Klc

Heather--I've been recommending this cookbook as one of the two or three best for new cooks. Buy it, read it, cook from it. Also buy Jody Adams and Judy Rodgers and you'll be all set.

How was it presented Bill? Do you have a link? I ask because I've now had three dinners there since we began talking about this place and I will keep going back. It's an overachieving very cute cafe that I wish was a little closer to my house in Arlington--there isn't a single restaurant closer, comparably good at its food & wine price point and style. The owners are committed, charming, so is the service. Rare for a fine dining restaurant, rarer still for a cafe. Previously on this thread I went a little toe-to-toe with Joe H over what I viewed as him mis-perceiving/misinterpreting what Tom Sietsema had written about this place. Now that I've been there a few times I, unsurprisingly, find myself agreeing with Tom and those on this thread who find this place charming in its own way and on its own terms. It's both a find and a value. Sure not every dish is a winner and there is some subtle and not-so-subtle drop off when the chef is off (as on my last visit; his wife was running the FOH and his sous chef was in the kitchen. The two didn't seem to be communicating as well as they could have.) We've had a dull Thai flank steak salad when the chef was there and a dull dry jerk pork dish when the chef was off; we've had that impressive tuna tartar app off of the "specials" list with wonderful sauces (wasabi especially) and also a not-so-good, sloppily diced and cut up version with those sauces made poorly; candied ginger to die for twice (best candied fruit or zest I've ever had) and barely edible the next time. And not to beat a dead horse--but regardless of how the food is priced--why quibble over a few bucks when you factor in some very good wines which are not marked up as they should or could be? There are many very acceptable food wines here under 20 bucks a bottle and as a result this place is a bargain based on my sense of what the dining dollar around town buys on the moderate end. I'll never pay 24/26 bucks for a just-average entree at, say, Cashions Eat Place again when places like this (or Vermilion in Old Town Alexandria) keep popping up. I've found really inexpensive things which blew me away, like the Cuban sandwich and the shellfish tamale--they're so good--even on the night the chef was off they were great--that I have a hard time NOT ordering them and I usually try to order everything once before recycling. (Ask for extra pickles on the Cuban, you'll get them cheerfully. This Cuban is not as good as the Cuban at lunch at Cafe Atlantico--but then Kats and Jose employ a secret method there which I don't believe has been mentioned anywhere yet. Try it and see if you don't agree.) Skip dessert, even that chocolate diablo terrine Tom liked is forgettable. This place can be more consistent as well, the less well-received, less well-conceived dishes should be removed and replaced sooner--but I for one will eagerly continue to patronize this place because they are trying and succeeding in surprising ways already--and might get even better with a little support from us. Sometimes the wines and dates on the printed list don't match up with what's served--but that is usually communicated orally. I've seen some special stemware brought out for more expensive wines--no problem here. A suggestion, though--they should switch to 8.5 x 14 paper for their wine list and print it off in house--it seems they take it around the corner and print the list out on oversize paper. Inefficient and no real upside. Even their most inexpensive wines are still pretty good. On the lowest end, we've had a very nice Glatzer Gruner veltliner, a $9 or $10 bottle marked up to $18.95, the 2001 Luis Felipe Edwards Carmenere--also a 10 buck wine on the list here for 18 (not as good as the 2000 Terrunyo Puemo Valley by Concha Y Toro or 2000 Veramonte "Primus" but much much less expensive.) And the Michelle Chiarlo "Nivole" Moscato d'Asti is a STEAL at 13.95--order that instead of dessert and thank me. Enjoy this place now even with its flaws; we'll see what changes more press coverage like that USA Today mention might bring.

As a followup to: "and, to emphasize the point here, these chicks do love him (witness the one who joked about "renting" him to work for her! ) Wonder if Ruth Reichl would feel similar vibes about him?" allow me to take you all way back to October 2000 and the Gourmet magazine issue which invited us to "meet America's most exciting young chef." Rocco got the full, predictable, Michael Ruhlman treatment on the inside--"His plates arrive at the table with a simplicity of presentation and a complexity of flavors and ingredients that belie his age"-- and a big wet kiss from Ruth on the cover, which laid the groundwork for all sorts of things to come. It was perhaps the best chef cover of a magazine I can recall seeing--anyone not remember Rocco heaving that whopping "60 pound tilefish?" This wasn't your parent's old Gourmet magazine anymore, it was Ruth's. For those willing to read along--Ruhlman really earned his paycheck with stuff like this: "There is indeed something of the Eagle Scout about DiSpirito, something a little too clean in his complexion and his brilliance, straight teeth, in his graceful posture, in his easy laughter. Something perhaps calculating. Serious, driven, and intense, he knows that being a chef today requires an image as managed as any major politician's, and he aims to manipulate that perception as efficiently as he brings a risotto to silky perfection." Prescient, huh? Ruth and Rocco gave us a lesson back then, a roadmap if you will, and it's up to us to decide whether we'll learn from that lesson. Rocco has given us another lesson with this TV show--the question this time is what will we take away from this lesson and what does Rocco have to learn, if anything?

Buy better chocolate and buy pistoles. It melts faster and more evenly. Spend that time you save doing something more interesting or working more efficiently and that will make your end product better. Win-win. Think about it--how easy and clean and efficient it is to weigh out what you need right from the box versus all the time, hassle, energy expended opening, chopping, storing, touching, cleaning, wiping hands and towels, re-wrapping chopped chunks of block chocolate? Not to mention the risk of injury trying to chop chocolate with all these various undoubtedly dull knives lying around a typical prep kitchen, etc. If that isn't worth the .25 or .50 cent difference per pound (pistoles vs. block) I don't know what is. I'm with invento and chefette--if you have to--use the multi-pronged ice pick. It's safer and cleaner.

Wow, alana, for a newbie you sure know how to just jump into the fire with a broad, interesting, potentially controversial, topic. Kudos to you. You are not off target. Despite the claims being made in certain pastry magazine circles, our profession is not growing, is not stronger than ever, we're not making more money, our salaries are not going up, our value is not being more and more appreciated by the dining public. The reverse is true--it's easier than ever to get by without a real pastry chef, desserts are getting worse not better, salaries are not rising, job satisfaction is not growing. The job still largely sucks and we're still largely under-appreciated. So what else is new? Most blue collar service industry jobs are under-appreciated. Shaw has nailed this pretty well--especially the media and restaurant critic angle. If we can't convince the dining public to care about dessert why should a restaurant critic care more about dessert and who the pastry chef is? Here's the bottom line as I see it: Pastry chefs have to do a better job positioning themselves in the marketplace, work harder to distinguish themselves, re-define their relationships with their chef, the media and their customers, and speak openly about what it means to be a "pastry chef" versus just a "baker;" We need to re-define the notion of "dessert"--a few scoops of ice cream, a brownie, and a bread pudding are not dessert--mailing in tired perfunctory classics is a ticket out of the profession because any old chef can outsource stuff like that or have his dishwasher make that. There's only room for a few very good Americana-style "pastry chefs" anyway, and frankly, Karen Barker, Emily Luchetti and Nancy Silverton have that media niche already sewn up; Bottom line--we have to do better, more interesting, more creative work. Our basic "Barker/Luchetti/Silverton" work has to be better--we have to stretch beyond what they do. If you work in that style you 1) have to rise at least to their level because home bakers can make this stuff and 2) we have to stretch our skills and our staff better to get beyond that level of form, achievement and palate interest. Our internal standards for ourselves have to be higher, and more of us have to be prepared to walk off the job and make things happen for ourselves elsewhere rather than to settle for a job with minimal equipment, poor ingredients, poor appreciation and support by the chef, etc. merely to pay the bills. This begins by talking openly about how many poorly trained underpaid people are in the position of "pastry chef" in so many restaurants and how underwhelming the level of desserts are in those restaurants, even in high-end restaurants. And much of this has to be laid at the feet of the chef and owner in those restaurants unwilling to hire, pay and retain talented people in that position. More restaurant critics have to realize this and speak up about this--as in the Shaw example of Tom Sietsema above. So we have a responsibility to make critics care about this. But in order to do that, to have any hope of that, we have to give the customers in our restaurants reason to care about dessert. For if they don't care, why should the critic care? We have to restore dessert to its once essential place in a complete dining experience and back that up with dessert which follows in the style of the cuisine. Not do the desserts we "know" how to do, not desserts that are "classic" or "French" or predictably tired CIA/ACF forms, but desserts which match the presentation, style and spirit of the food. And, of course, whatever we do has to be good. Delicious and good. And not enough of it is.

I just came across this piece while searching on Wegmans: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/entertain...ols/5809442.htm and wondered what the good word is on this store? It's been open 3 months, how has it been doing--are you happy? Has it re-energized your shopping?

Sure, in an ideal world. But NYC is expensive and competitive. I doubt they could make the numbers work on a destination Manhattan showroom. Would you want to go up against Broadway Panhandler, Zabars, all the little markets and gourmet stores and Chinatown and...JB Prince? Yes, JB Prince was recently "outed" to the general public by New York magazine as "Best Kitchen Supply Store in NYC." http://www.nymetro.com/urban/guides/bestof...itchentools.htm

Why do you think it might be risky? I think Sur La Table has figured out that they are very different from Williams Sonoma--that their differences appeal to customers outside of NoCal (it is much better than Williams Sonoma, which has been mediocre and static for a while) and that with more of a national presence and buying clout they probably can order and stock what extra they need, train the new people they need, find enough reasonable rents per square foot in these places, etc. The newish Sur La Table that opened near me--in Pentagon Row, VA--seems to be doing gangbusters. I go in there a lot. It has tremendous selection, lots of stylish stuff, depth, choice, prices, very nice staff (though not terribly knowledgeable.) Just one example: it has big blocks of Valrhona, E. Guittard AND Michel Cluizel chocolate--call that an embarrassment of riches--and at decent prices to boot. But having nice staff and good customer service is well received in this era or poor customer service at the retail level. If this indicates anything it is probably that you need stores and an online/catalog presence to grow. One or the other is not enough. The thing is--I never realized it was Seattle-based? I always thought, incorrectly I guess, that its flagship store was that huge nice San Francisco store. Did anyone else?

Russ, Tony, others either on the scene or who have read the book--for purposes of moving this thread forward a bit, would any of you care to list and assess all the "important innovations in "new" American cuisine" which has sprung from these two? That might help those of us who don't readily accept too many of those harmonious myths of American gastronomy. W/R/T Stars, Tony, and your comment "Today, you can hardly pick up a menu without seeing its imprint"--is that a good or bad thing--that we're still seeing that imprint with little movement forward? That influence has been copied and emulated so much it has a kind of mailed-in quality to it--like eating some wax museum version of West Coast Americana, what was fresh and exciting, oh, say 25 years ago? Russ, I think you started to going toward this when you wrote "I think Tower was enormously important, but was doing something other than what we recognize today as california cuisine. look at his menus and i think you'll see that he was doing something quite different, much more intellectual and much more experimental (not to say better or worse). i think what he contributed was an aesthetic appreciation for what was truly good, rather than what was merely good for you." Care to flesh that out with some more specifics--some "innovations" even? Were any of you on the scene then--or have had discussions-- to talk about presentation and skills in the kitchen--essentially about techniques applied to these great ingredients, was there a difference in how "great shopping" was transformed in either's hands?

By the way, I have a hardback first edition of StarsDesserts in great shape I'd gladly sell to a fellow eGulleteer. Why wait for a re-issue? PM me with your bid. I had no idea of its value.

I could have been a little clearer--I do think there is value in at least a few of those expensive Thuries volumes. I bought them of my own free will but then I buy pretty much every book. Roux and Thuries earned their "MOF" in the same year--1976--you can tell from their work they both came from that classic era where you couldn't even call yourself "pastry chef" until you could nail patisserie, vienoisserie, ice creams, chocolate and sugar artistry, etc. You had to be complete. Their written works have two distinct aims however--with Thuries following that old French approach to write solely for the professionals and to be revered by other professionals but unknown to the public and Roux writing for pros AND home cooks while maintaining very high standards. I never found Thuries all that helpful looking back--I'm glad I had it in a reference sense--but for that amount of money I was more glad I bought (and still always recommended) that 4 volume Professional French Pastry Series for "beginning pros" over the Thuries. When I was back in similar shoes as you studying under that Belgian--and I was learning from someone who himself learned from that 1976 classic French vocational school model--it was the 4 volumes of the Professional French Pastry Series which I returned to time and time again. Those 4 volumes still stand the test of time and I find I turn to those books and not Thuries for reference.

That's how the first Roux book hooked me way back when and you just don't see quality books published like that anymore--it's too easy and profitable to churn out FoodTV celebrity-driven fluff with few pictures. But in a sense you've made my case for that book for beginners--you do open that book and you do say to yourself "I want to aspire to that." You feel the essence, the value of that book. The problem with most other books is that they aren't inspirational. That now old Roux book undeniably is. It is a must purchase--and while we may disagree whether it should be in the first group of books for a beginner or the second--I sense most of us agree it should still be in the mix. I have Finest Desserts, the other Roux dessert book, and I still open it now and then. It's perfectly fine, I'm happy it is on my shelf but it posseses nowhere near the consummate magic of the first Roux book (for me.) The Thuries books (for me) have always served as very dated historical reference points only--were they ever fresh?--someplace to check a baba recipe against Ducasse and other sources to see how and why he did it, etc. Very straightforward, very stuck-in-time and archival. (A subscription to Thuries magazine is a much better investment.)

Russ--I can only report on the things I've had when Sherry has come east to NYC for demos and things, and her stuff has been very good. really good. I'm really looking forward to the book now that I hear there is additional food and writing talent on the project as well--thank you for sharing that with us. As far as helping define her style, for those who are interested, that's something I'm not that interested in. I don't like forcing definitions and fitting chefs into boxes. I would say that the work of hers that I have seen and tasted is not what I'd call innovative or progressive--but that isn't important and isn't necessarily related to how good the book will be. Chocolate arrows have been passe for a while and certainly don't have any place on elite chef's desserts, experimental or otherwise, but I know what you mean. What's good is good and I'm looking forward to checking the book out and seeing what the meat of the book is. We need more good pastry/dessert/baking books. As an example, if you read about Regan Daley's Sweet Kitchen book on paper you'd think it should be a must purchase. It sure fooled all the initialed organizations like the IACP but aside from the glossary, which just cribbed from the work of other books and magazines and Google, and was then re-worked without any personality or style, the leaden book is pretty much folksy home baker underwhelming crap from a home baker masquerading as a professional pastry chef. For her (and that book) to have come out of Canada and been given the play it got here in the US just shows how starving we are here for material on the subject. (It also reinforces that even the level of professional awareness of desserts and baking is still pretty low here--that we pastry chefs have to do a better job--and that there are still far too many boring perfunctory desserts being passed on to hopeful diners. If we aren't careful, our diners will lose hope altogether.) My hope with the Yard book is that it proves at least as valuable as Claudia Fleming's recent book did--both Yard and Fleming won the Beard best pastry chef award--and her book was also done with a talented co-author. I find Claudia's book very inspirational and a very good representation of her work and her philosophy though not necessarily the best "beginner" book. And that's OK. Fleming is perhaps the most influential, most widely emulated pastry chef in the US. Again--deservedly so because she shows US pastry chefs and bakers that 1) they don't have to be content with the "very good for its decade (two decades ago) but now pretty tired" Emily Luchetti/Nancy Silverton/Flo Braker level of published work which I feel doesn't raise the bar enough (though Luchetti/Silverton ably led the way to Claudia) and 2) that they don't have to accept the level of way over-praised mediocrity achieved in books by the likes of Marcel Desaulnier, Eleanor Klivans, Alice Medrich, David Lebovitz, etc. which I feel actually lowers the bar. Russ, you've featured Claudia in your paper so you know exactly what I'm talking about: she had a West Coast pastry chef spirit with the skill and talent to work in an East Coast sense of refinement and elegance of presentation. She was one of the first people in NY to break the hold French pastry chefs had on the city, to say hey, you don't have to do these rigid, formal Pastry Art & Design-promoted architectural monstrosities for dessert--full of chocolate slings and arrows--and you don't have to do the same-old/same-old bread pudding/tart/brownie crap either, you can do things cleanly, elegantly, with purity, with seemingly exotic fresh ingredients yet present them with little or no artifice. (Essentially what the best chefs and pastry chefs in Spain have been saying for years and years before people starting listening.) While I don't feel Claudia's book is the best for a very "beginning" beginner, it is a must purchase as a stepping stone. It is not a "dumb down to the lowest common denominator-style" of book. It has personality--and I hope the Yard book follows in that vein, as some of the recent very good chef's cookbooks have--like Jody Adams "In the Hands of a Chef" and Judy Rodgers' Zuni Cafe book. (By the way, a dessert book from that West coast group which has flown largely under the radar but that I do recommend highly is "Desserts: Mediterranean Flavors, California Style" by Cindy Mushnet. I find it a winning blend of enthusiasm, style and information; it's charming and valuable in every way that the books by Regan Daley and David Lebovitz are not. Mushnet, like most of the West coast group, is not strong presentation-wise so I don't mind that there aren't many pictures. No West coast pastry chef or baker or cookbook author is going to teach us anything about creating visual interest, though new blood out West is starting to change that.) I worry sometimes, though, about cookbook writers and chef writers trying to be systematic, trying to channel the spirit of Rose L. Beranbaum, because there is only one RLB and sometimes (oftentimes) systematic loses sight of what is also really important--taste, flavor, communication, connecting, etc. That's the fatal flaw with might be called the Cook's Illustrated approach, which I find pretty useless and pedestrian out of its context. That approach doesn't communicate the fragile magic and ethereal nature--the reasons why some dishes and desserts taste better in certain hands. It's not just technique or collections of recipes it is also palate, mentality, spirit and understanding ingredients and combinations of ingredients. I did not recommend Lesley's fantastic lean book on this thread because I knew it wasn't available in English anymore from the last thread--but anyone who has read the previous pastry book threads knows I adore its very clean, clear instruction and photography. It's the best short course in all the French pastry and baking basics you need to know--it's always better to begin with the classics and then go forward-- and is only rivaled by the Roux Brothers on Pastry book--which Lesley admits was her inspiration for her book, what she held herself up to. If you can get your hands on her book in English, do so, or if you are a very beginner buy the fun Bill Yosses book. Spanish books we've also talked about--Oriol Balaguer's absolutely wonderful book is in English and is most non-Spanish speakers best bet, his book is the best "Adria" available in English, followed by the Adria book CD-ROM and the Adria Postres book, of course. None of these are beginner's books, however.

yes, Disney represents good value for locals--I find the price to quality ratio very high anyway and with the discount even better. The thing that Disney has more than anything else is committed chefs, managers and FOH personnel who care about what they are doing and care about the guest--every guest. Customer service is really a big deal there and when you are in the industry, and have to suffer through such inexperience and uncaring attitudes to (hopefully) get to some good food, it strikes you how pleasant the dining experiences are there. And I'm not necessarily treated special (as a chef) when I dine out there--many, many times I've eaten in these restaurant unannounced or where I have not "met" the chef beforehand. I've had meals like any regular customer. I am lucky to have had a few chefs cook something special for me--say an off-menu tasting menu--as both the chef at Canada--Brian Piasecki--and at Living Seas--Roland Muller--did last Fall--but that was only after having the regular menu first on a previous visit. And those special menus revealed to me that there is talent just waiting to be utilized there, waiting for the opportunity to stretch. Neither of these guys are in the "top tier" on property but could/should be. When was the last time you ate at Flying Fish? How has it changed since State left to go to the Ca Grill? I have felt the love/hate thing as well and it's just too bad--it's also why I try to talk about the experiences I've had there, maybe some will listen. As far as V & A, we've never gotten to eat there--it is the one restaurant on property that guest chefs aren't able to go to as part of our "package"--meaning we can eat at every other restaurant, including Ca Grill, as many times as we like, but not V & A. So my experiences do not include V & A. I can't say if it is special or underwhelming and I have never cooked with one of the chefs either. However, since my last visit in November Disney hired a pretty good pastry chef in Laurent Branlard for the Swan and Dolphin (who came from the Ritz-Buckhead) so that would be worth checking out. We just got our dates for the upcoming Festival, by the way; Colleen and I are cooking for a reserve wine dinner, featuring the wines of Chalk Hill, and a Party for the Senses October 30 and November 1st.

There have been previous requests here about Orlando and WDW restaurant recommendations and I have not been back to Orlando since I replied in those previous threads. However, my assessments, ranging over a period of the last 4 years, essentially echo those of SanFran88 except for one detail--the recommendation that if you are there during the Food & Wine Festival just nosh at the booths. To that I'd say no, no, no. The booth food is a nice diversion if you happen to be walking around but mostly just average quality county fair-type stuff. There are really good food & wine experiences to be had at Disney and really talented food & wine pros there but you 1) have to go to the restaurants or 2) to the wine dinners or Party of the Senses if you are there during the Epcot Food & Wine Festival. I also highly, highly recommend planning your trip to coincide with that Festival. It's a very special event. I've sampled the outside booths now each year for four years in a row and I've eaten each year at the best restaurants on property because I've been lucky enough to keep getting invited back as a guest chef during the Epcot Festival. This man's opinion: no booths, yes to restaurants, wine dinners and Festival events. I agree essentially with SanFran on the general ranking: I'd put California Grill at the top, and even urge a second dinner at Ca Grill next, followed by dinners at the Living Seas Pavilion, Artist Point, Flying Fish and then perhaps Canada. FF changed chefs a year ago, so I'm not in a position to say how the new guy's changes are going over--but my meals there with John State were great--I can say the "new" Ca Grill has improved or at least maintained the previous very high status quo, we ate there 2 times last fall and were guest chefs for a wine dinner there with John and his staff. I might rate Canada a little higher--I know the chef, it has a better price point--and rate Living Seas much higher, possibly putting it second behind Ca Grill--but then I'd be quibbling with SanFran88. I agree with him about the Norway buffet--we've done it a few times over the years and of the "second tier" kind of touristy destinations in Epcot that is probably your best alternative and fun. When in Epcot, I'd put Canada higher than everything there except Living Seas and would do lunches and dinners at both before anything else. Yes, that includes ahead of France, Italy, Japan, et al. I was also unimpressed with Jiko and Citricos even after the chef changes. I much preferred Boma (the year we stayed in the great Animal Kingdom Lodge) for what it was trying to do and for its price point. I never get off-property so I'm afriad I can't help you with any recommendations there, but I always leave Disney wondering if the locals have any idea how good the food is, and how many really commited chefs and sommeliers there are at some of the restaurants on property right under their noses.

I've been to a lot of these kinds of events and cooked at a lot of them as well--multi-station walkaround tastings or seated multi-course dinners--and can tell you there is no guarantee and no relationship of value to price. Merit aside, politics, media connections, friendships and celebrity "can" come into play as to who gets invited to go where. (Remember--chefs and restaurants foot all their own bills, expenses and travel to "cook" at the Beard House.) Some of the more expensive events for charity or Beard dinners can have a surprisingly high percentage of lousy food with celebrity chefs mailing it in, then again, it could be great--but often it isn't anywhere near the quality you'd get in that particular chef's restaurant. So keep that in mind and keep your expectations reasonable going in. There are usually a few underwhelming dishes which pale in comparison to some other impressive dishes. You just roll the dice you get a roster of chefs who care so much about their stuff that they choose what to do wisely--from the chef's perspective doing things off-site is never easy especially if you have to travel to do it--and then stay on top of it to ensure what goes out is the best it can be. One nice aspect is the opportunity to mingle and chat up other foodies--as a chef I appreciate that and appreciate the one-on-one interactions. There's also that direct connection and spark you get when someone wanders by, takes a spoonful of something and goes "wow." I'm sure there will be a further announcement of some sort, a menu released with wines, etc. soon--but this event should be a real bargain $$$-wise and very interesting. At this point I'm planning to do a version of the Turkish Coffee Chocolate dessert in a glass (from Zaytinya) and the arroz con leche a la moderna from Jaleo. I'm honored that Fabio is a part of this--how could he not be? I just discovered John Wabeck was selected for this event--deservedly so, so congratulations to John--who also has decided to reveal the fact that he's been an eGulleteer for a while as well. Frankly, I haven't eaten at Sushi-Ko or Signatures since their new chefs took over and both Morou and Koji are part of this, plus (I believe) Jamie Leeds and Jay Comfort, so this should be special and fun. To be the only pastry chef selected from DC puts the pressure on but it is an honor I'm taking very seriously. John--which dish are you planning to do?

Why would anyone laugh Heather? If anyone did, it would be uninformed. That very accessible, very engaging book was co-written by Bill Yosses--a real, talented "working" pastry chef--and Bryan Miller--a real, talented food writer and critic. These guys aren't FoodTV personalities or celebrity authors, aren't dense or convoluted, aren't mailing it in or riding on the coat-tails of a reputation, aren't over-extended, haven't become full-time cookbook factory types, etc. I still recommend it most highly for a true beginner. Then by some Berenbaum and something French and something Spanish to start broadening your horizons and stretching your mind.

I think your best bet is to do your homework on the NY board, where service has always been given a lot of attention and all of these restaurants have been discussed in depth. That your wife perceives Babbo to be "adventurous" might be somewhat more problematic--Babbo's pretty conservative and very accessible. Plus, you can't really tell much from reading about dishes anyway, she really has to taste them. I mean, would she be put off by things like the following: hyssop, verjus, pea shoot and mint emulsion, wild lily buds, celery root? If so, then she'd have a problem with Hugo's--that's right off my menu the other night--but I have to tell you these ingredients just work seamlessly there in the hands of a good chef, often mere accents. And that's the thing, you really just have to give yourself over or you end up eating just at places like Union Square Cafe because it is safe. And you really shouldn't go into any of the big city dining opportunities worrying about service--it ruins the experience--as long as you know how to ask for the kind of service you want and know what is appropriate to ask for, to expect, etc. There's a lot of talk about that on the site as well--Shaw (among many other good voices) has talked well about this since the site started. Again, "good relaxed service and atmosphere" can mean many different things--and frankly, when I'm in Maine/NH I have big problems with service--it's slow, inattentive, indifferent, water glasses are never refilled properly, servers are not as wine attentive as they should be, etc. Service is so relaxed/poor/unprofessional I want to take a nap and say wake me up when it's my turn again. Portland is different and Hugo's was consummate--the definition of good service which is relaxed yet attentive. You also have to make sure you're talking about the same thing--because face it, there's a frisson and excitement and hussle and energy in NYC, especially at some of the better dining destinations, which comes merely FROM BEING IN NYC. They have to turn tables appropriately to keep prices what they are for you--and as long as that is done with the right seamless pacing that shouldn't cause a problem service-wise. That's fair and good business because you are essentially renting a piece of prime real estate for 1.5 or 2 hours. You are not paying enough to have the table all night and at the relaxed pace you might receive in Maine. So as long as you have an awareness of this and are reasonable, there shouldn't be a problem. And my sense is you aren't choosing any of the most formal formal places anyway--and if you read through the NY board you'll figure out which places have not had the best track records service-wise according to eGulleteers--a la Babbo. (Though my meals there have been perfect.)

Well, as you can tell I'm certainly not going to North Conway for the food and I don't ski, because I'd kill myself, nor do I particularly like to hike and get bitten by mosquitoes. Fall leaves--see them once, no need to see them again. My wife is from New Hampshire, grew up there, went to undergrad there, her father still lives in North Conway. He used to own the airport there which is now the monstrous Settler's Green outlet shopping mall (with a fantastic April Cornell outlet!) I return for weddings, holidays, family get togethers. The thing about the "usual suspects" in NYC is it depends on your frame of reference. For out-of-towners I'm a big fan of going to the usual suspects first so you can frame others around them. So do consider going to the highly regarded usual suspects on the higher end--and decide for yourself what you feel about them. I personally wouldn't go to Union Square not because it isn't good but because it isn't interesting and creative enough for me--based on my level of awareness and my interests. If you are a big entree kind of guy go there. I tend not to like safe touristy conservative restaurants no matter how impeccable they may execute things--and from all acounts, Union Square is impeccable at what it aims to provide to its audience. See Shaw's recent reviews and comments. Since you've already been to Gramercy Tavern I see no need for you to go to Union Square. Maybe Craft or Craftbar or Verbena or Fleur de Sel but none of those ahead of Blue Hill--a lot of we eGulleteers love BH--I think BH's $65 tasting menu is tops in the city for fine dining value and unlike other places they also have a top pastry chef, Pierre Reboul, who can match the food. If you can go somewhere else in addition to BH, I've been sending friends to Alias on Clinton Street of late--though that neighborhood might be too edgy/too off the beaten path for some though it is as safe as anywhere else. I've had some excellent very personal cooking there in the past month or two--and while WD 50 has gotten all the attention--this small place is doing a great job and never crosses over the line from delicious to weird. Its "weird" dishes are delicious--like that fluke ceviche in watermelon-scotch bonnet pepper consomme--killer good. I've written about BH and Alias elsewhere on the NY boards and thank Lissome for turning me on to Alias. But the thing is, there are lots of little chef-driven places just like this in other genres all over the city. I suggested L'Impero for a few reasons, because it won the Beard Best New Restaurant award, you said Murray Hill, you had bad Italian/Little Italy experiences and I know and admire the pastry chef at L'Impero, Heather Carlucci. She's worth seeking out. As Bux said, it's really hard to go wrong in the city. But in a way, don't you want to have tried Daniel or Cafe Boulud or Jean-Georges or Babbo at least once?

I'm preparing a regular bus trip down to Kuba Kuba, thanks guys. And thanks dscott for the summary. Not surprising that it takes a cool article in the Home section to get DC'ers down to Richmond to eat. Is that coffee roasting place still any good?

I thought it closed. Doublecheck.

Oh, I mostly meant there wasn't anything like Portland Greengrocer anywhere in the Mt. Washington Valley--sorry for my poor phrasing--that's where I thought Tonkichi was going to be for most of the time--it wouldn't surprise me one bit that Portland itself has many alternatives as you mentioned and I've been reading about the Public Market development for two years and meaning to go myself. I will next time--it's just driving over from North Conway, dining and walking around and then driving back doesn't leave as much time to explore as I would like. I'd love to hear more about the scene and can't wait to go back again around Christmas. I am going to be spending much more time in Portland and much less of my time in NH. But all those markets and farmers serve up an interesting point--this place, though it has a tourist base, is larger, has supply chains and the support from locals allowing chefs to do what they do well--and there's incentive and competition. I don't get that sense back in NH and that's perhaps why my experiences there have never risen above the merely adequate. Like in Portland there was this very cool looking cafe on Commercial Street right near the Greengrocer--with an outdoor patio that looked like it might be fun and might serve tapas or caribbean food--do you know this place and whether it is any good? And as far as Hugo's--let me just say their elegant understated website does them justice. It presents them and what they do accurately--the menus and dishes change around often, their commitment to local producers, the fact that they list those farmers on their menus, that the chef had cooked at the French Laundry, etc. I didn't want to overplay that or even mention it because his food stands on its own. I really like the fact that they offer diners so many options: the Bar menu a la carte, 2 course, 3 course or chef tasting menu fix prixe options. If you want to add another course, say, to the $44 menu they'll do that and charge you $50 or so. I called to make my reservation on a day the restaurant was closed. I got one of the owners. Charming as can be answering the phone. Working, naturally, on her day off. No attitude, no call back tomorrow or leave a message tape. Just see you Wednesday at 5:30 with an offer that the chef would do a special menu for us if we requested it. The minute we walked in I was taken by the ambience, subdued, austere even, but still very warm. We got there right when it opened at 5:30, the setting sun crept through the shades and filtered through some very artistic black iron railings, which separate the bar dining area from the main dining area. Plating and presentations are modern in an elite food city way, portions are not large but neither are they pretentious nor too small. Wine glasses are very good--Spiegelau. But then this reflects my bias: I'm partial to very small chef-owned places doing very personal yet serious cooking. This place, Blue Hill, Django in Philly, etc. You should give it a try Sphinx. Everyone within driving distance should go to Hugo's--you locals should realize how lucky you are to have a restaurant this good within your grasp. We eGulleteers have to support places like this. And I so agree about 302 up there and during foliage, oh my. Our backroad route into Portland is from Fryeburg to 113S to 25E to 114S to 22E. Link to fair: http://www.fryeburgfair.com/Homepage/Homepage.html

Tonkichi--I've been getting up to the Mt. Washington Valley/North Conway NH area about twice a year for the past 5 years or so. In fact, I was there for a week last week and we eat out a lot. It is not a food town, the local audience is too tolerant of mediocrity, too unaware or too small to support much more than that. The biggest problem with this area is it is not in any way like Portland, Maine. I don't have any recommendations for the "crummy but good/roadfood" type of places for you, since most of the low end food up there is pretty non-descript and not worth seeking out. The chef of the Lobster Trap in North Conway steamed me a very good lobster and steamers--but that was at a private event off-site and not in his restaurant. (This might be the place mentioned previously in the thread.) I have no idea how his lobsters or lobster rolls are priced in the restaurant but there always seem to be cars parked outside. I also have not yet eaten in Tamworth or Bethlehem but this time we drove right through Bethlehem--coming up 91 instead of 93. Coming up 91 was great, much less frustrating than 93. Bethlehem is very cute very small--calling it a "town" is a stretch even by NH standards--and it seemed to have but one restaurant and a coffee shop--I think it was called Lloyd Hill's or something like that. I have no idea if it is any good but I mentally filed it away to try on a future visit. There was also a place called Flamingo Rose set off uphill from the road which seemed like it might be a kind of fun American beer-Tex-Mex type of place, which I also don't know anything about. That area is very quiet, charming even, and very removed from what's going on in the Conway, North Conway, Fryeburg, Bartlett, Jackson area where there are many more hotels, motels, restaurants, bars, density, etc. The general problem I have up there is that most of the higher end fine dining experiences are conventional, over-priced and pretty non-descript as well. Too much is either over-salted, over-processed Sysco stuff or undersalted Sysco stuff--rarely do you not have to add salt or pepper to something. Poor service, poor attention to detail, poor value, very little interest on the plate. Too much pandering to conservative locals and conservative tourists. Too many of the places have this kind of stuck in time old world inn cooking feel to them. It's the kind of stale Escoffier/German/Italian/Continental cooking you see on all those Great Chefs of Europe shows. If you have to try one place in the valley give Thompson House Eatery in Jackson a shot--I've eaten there maybe 5 times and it is good cooking-wise for the area. It's a small-town version of fine dining--friendly "casual" fine dining in a cute, rustic charming setting--and not to be confused with more cosmopolitan casual fine dining even though at the same price point. Try not to eat there when they ALSO have a large party in the outdoor private dining area about to be served. We made that mistake on Sunday night this week--and it seemed the chef and kitchen couldn't handle anything in the dining room while he was plating up and serving the private party, which took like 25 minutes. (A bunch of nice NEA principals as it turned out.) I ordered two apps--the crabcake and the sauteed squid, my wife ordered a roasted corn/tomato soup as an app. Our server brought out the soup and left me high and dry. Didn't think to say a thing to me. I watched my wife really enjoy her soup--watched the procession of a few entrees at a time get carried out to the private party room--I enjoyed a few sips of my wife's soup--finally I asked our server (Stephanie--very young, very nice, just inexperienced) if she thought it was appropriate for me not to have gotten at least one app yet and for her not to have said anything when she just brought out my wife's soup? That made her sad. We tried to cheer her up, ordering a second bottle of wine after letting her know we felt a little unappreciated. Turns out the chef had not allowed her to submit any app orders while the kitchen was dealing with the entrees for the 30 or so person party. Which was just my bad luck--and the bad luck of everyone else in the dining room--but that's what you get with small town staffing, dining and food awareness. My two apps then arrived at the same time after my wife was done. When we finally got everything, the squid better than the crab, and both our entrees--two different sirloin preparations--were very good also. If you go, ask to be seated in Tam's section--she's a very experienced, very worldly server who knows her wines. And their list is one of the most interesting, most fairly priced in the valley. We had a super Finger Lakes, NY Konstantin Frank riesling and a bargain Cotes du Rhone. I'd skip dessert here and everywhere in the valley--boring, conventional or just plain bad. My espresso had no crema whatsoever. (I know, what was I thinking.) On the low to moderate priced end--we've had very good experiences in North Conway at two places--at the Flatbread place on 16 and at Maestro's around the corner. Go to Maestro's for lunch only--at dinner it morphs into a predictable and over-priced Italian restaurant for what it is. At lunch it is a surprsingly nice little cafe for salads, Italian cold cuts and grilled salmon. And the flatbread place is very good pizza especially if you value a crisp crust as I do. They have an excellent roster of artisinal or microbrewed beers on tap--Magic Hat #9, Fat Angel, Allagash, Tuckermans. Flatbread is the only place in the Valley we eat at every single time we visit. It's the only place in the valley I recommend without reservation. We've been meaning to go to Coyote Rose across the street--which we've heard good things about--but keep getting turned off by the brusque cold shoulder and impersonal greeting we get from the older woman who stands behind the bar, who barks "do you have a reservation" after we've stood around for a few minutes, that we usually walk out and go elsewhere. On the higher end--after being disappointed with most the restaurants in the Valley--I now recommend you drive the 1.5 hours to Portland to try Hugo's, Michaela's, Fore Street, etc. The valley never rises above "pretty good." There's nothing even remotely comparable in the valley food-wise. In fact, Hugo's could (possibly) be the best restaurant in New England right now on a price-to-value-to quality ratio--even better than Clio and Radius in Boston, where I've dined several times each. I really don't understand why it hasn't garnered more attention from the food media and restaurant critics in Boston. Guess Corby is too busy with other projects, because Hugo's is definitely worth building a trip around. It's a small personal stylish place with equally stylish, interesting food, elegantly presented, caring polished service, very good bread selection (from Standard Baking down the street) and a very eclectic affordable wine list. It's the closest thing to NYC's gem Blue Hill that I have found and at an even better price point. Last week we had the duck, pork belly, crispy sea bass and mackerel tartar apps off the prix fixe menu followed by the poached beef tenderloin and a "surf and turf" of peekytoe crab and veal cheeks. All fantastic and a bargain for $44 prix fixe, especially when you consider the wines are so affordable and so well-matched to the food--we had 3 bottles of roughly $20 wines that drank like $40 wines, a Navarra (Bodegas Guelbenzu) from Spain, an old vine Chenin blanc from Chappellet and a Montsarra cava. What we didn't finish we corked up and took home. They also do an 8 or 9 course chef's tasting menu for like $74 bucks or you can sit at little tables near the bar and order many of these dishes individually off a Bar menu--so you have a lot of options as far as creating your experience there. (Desserts are just average in flavor, composition and presentation, it seemed the chef was making the desserts himself, or didn't want to hire and pay a pastry chef comparable to the chef's abilities with the food. Too bad, for they don't stand up to the savory side though the dessert menu "reads" very nicely. That's the only negative of the place. But then it is the rare chef anywhere who has desserts which stand up to his "cuisine.") Here's a link to Hugo's, it should be your first choice: http://www.hugos.net/ And here's a link to Michaela's: http://www.michaelas.com/index.html There's also a grocery store down on Commercial Street in "Old Port" Portland that is unrivalled in the Valley--Portland Greengrocer has fantastic locally farmed produce, with a great selection of dairy, deli and wines. We picked up several pints of tiny delicious locally grown organic blueberries and used them in a dessert later that week. When you're there, you might want to stop in. Otherwise, your only other option is the surprisingly good Shaw's supermarket in North Conway. Oh--one off-topic thing--driving is pretty bad up there--lots of one lane roads, very slow locals and flatlanders and logging trucks and campers and, well, prepare to be frustrated.

Mark--how often and how recently have you eaten in the Arlington space? How did you find the quality of food there? Our experiences there have not been good--poor sushi, pale imitations of Vietnamese or Thai dishes much better elsewhere in the neighborhood, like Minh's and Singh Thai, and we've vowed never to return. Should we?

I use a nice Samos muscat in an apricot dessert and a Santorini vin santo (Assirtiko grape I think) from Kostas Antoniou in another (Athenee Importers, Malverne NY.) Another very good dessert wine from Evia, Greece is Montofoli Estate (imported by Vina Mediterranean LLC, Upper Marlboro, MD.) On the non-dessert side I think you have to compare the Greek reds to Serge Hochar and Chateau Musar from the Bekaa Valley. All relatively affordable and nice value.