Steve Klc

This place might be a huge addition to Old Town, a destination I've generally been down on food-wise for a long time. We've been twice in the past 3 weeks and enjoyed ourselves each time. It's already a happening place with potential. I'd say go before a review comes out. We've ordered mostly appetizers each time--and make a kind of tasting menu out of them. Wine is interesting and very reasonably priced, including a $20 bottle of gruner veltliner. If you are interested I'll tell you a little more about the dishes we liked--but I'd start with the mini crab cakes, the grilled skewers of beef and shrimp, the lamb-mint lollipops, the salad nicoise, and the duck quesedilla. There's a nice edge here as well--it's younger and less staid, less old money than Susan's Majestic Cafe, which is the only other place in Old Town we currently like. (The problem for some with Majestic Cafe, if there is a problem, is Susan isn't trying to do the level of cooking she was doing at Morrison Clark. For those of us lucky to taste what Susan did at M-C, which was incredible, it set the standard for that "refined new-American Southern-comfort food" niche which frankly has not been equalled by any of the current practitioners of that niche around town or say at Charleston in Baltimore. What she's doing now is an intentional step down--with a less refined emphasis serving a different, more conservative audience looking for homestyle Southern comfort food. It's still "in" Susan's style--but just with less "of" her style and time-consuming handiwork.) Vermilion is new, of course, and right now less expensive than Majestic Cafe. On paper, the food is a little more overtly interesting than Susan's; in practice, the service and the quality of cooking is also much less accomplished, but--and this is a big but--both are decent enough already especially for a new place. We even had a pretty good berry cobbler at Vermilion--and if you read these threads you know that I usually don't even order dessert out and have very low expectations. I was surprised to find a dessert here I really liked. However, just to put this in "grand scheme of things" perspective--Vermilion is very good, nice addition to the otherwise arid dining scene there--a Old Town neighborhood place which just opened and which has potential to realize--but the cooking there in no way compares to what, say, John Wabeck is doing at Firefly (or even better, what Gian Piero did at Elysium.) John is a much better chef doing better work--and he's a little more confident with his style of cooking now, I suspect, than when he was first championed by Phyllis Richman years ago. His restaurant and cooking is more consistent and stylish; he's been open longer, already been reviewed by Sietsema and built on that review. He's assembled, trained and retained a much better team, which results in better service and a better overall customer "experience." It's a small dining room--even if you are known to the chef, as I was, you can see the joy that the host and runners and servers communicate to all the guests. Unlike most chefs, John has a great palate for wine, he lived and cooked in Napa for a while, and at Firefly has assembled an interesting, eclectic, food-oriented wine list--perhaps one of the handful of best "food wine" lists in town and here's the kicker: his dishes are at the same price point as Vermilion. So, go to Firefly and then, if you find yourself in Old Town, settle for Vermilion.

Bri--you're a wholesaler now, right? What's your name doing on the menu still? Any client of yours who is outsourcing the tiramisu from you, should instruct their servers to say "we get our tiramisu from xyz baking, isn't it fantastic?" (Or whatever name you have chosen for your business.) As long as your product is good, you've accomplished a lot. I wouldn't get involved with handholding a client--with the extra "consulting" some have suggested because that isn't your core business now. You are not being paid by this guy as a consultant. Your core business is wholesaling pretty good, fresh desserts to restaurants who don't want to hire a pastry chef for $8 an hour let alone 30 or 35K. So offer the rapi-mold version at a price that works for you, buy slightly larger molds and offer a plus size--at a plus price--for guys like this--offer a big round version for clients who want the retro layer cake look--again, at a price that works for you--AND maybe offer a full sheet version. So in the case of this guy he can buy the full sheet and slice off huge squares if he wants to serve huge squares of your tiramisu. But let him order, let him make the choice and let him deal with his complaints. You cash his check. But you charge the price that works for all these options. Yes there is client schmoozing, but the reality is you will waste time and resources coddling this guy unless you charge for that. If you have faith in yourself and your product--and how it shapes up in your market--you will be fine. You have to remember you aren't an employee of this guy anymore. You are doing business with him now.

Alana--you should feel so gratified as well that as a newbie to eGullet, unknown to any of us, you prompted such an outpouring, such an interesting discussion. That's one of the things that makes this nascent community we have here so special and unparalleled. I've read some perfunctory pieces on "recognition" before but I've never seen it addressed so realistically, so emotionally. That post by Michael Laiskonis on this thread is one of the best summaries from a savvy pastry chef I've ever read. It's a shame that something like that has never appeared in an old media outlet--let alone the discussion which sandwiches it. And you will have a lot to add as you make the switch from West coast to East coast! Also, no one is saying restaurants aren't stepping stones--just look at who gets nominated for the Beard awards and who steps beyond that to a FoodTV show or a cookbook or something entrepreneurial--a la a chocolate business or patisserie! If we look closer we all can learn something from these people who have come before even if we may not choose to try to emulate them. It is the rare non-restaurant pastry chef who garners votes and who steps forward, but we all can step forward. Hotel pastry chefs rarely get the fine-dining consideration like this--but they also make their choice going into "foodservice," they (generally) get a great salary compared to what a free-standing restaurant pastry chef makes, supervises a large staff, does a lot of banquets, buys and uses a lot of commercial products and in turn is more likely to get featured in industry magazines like a Pastry Art & Design, which is in turn supported by the product manufacturers. In a sense it is much harder for them to get more mainstream recognition for their work--in say a Bon Appetit--regardless of their ability or how their desserts taste. Which leads back to: you make your choices, you're responsible for your own mistakes and missteps, and you realize there isn't necessarily a right way to go about things. You define for yourself what the appropriate level of recognition and reward is. And hopefully you manage to keep finding little joys in your work.

Don't forget, you can always try to snag last minute cancellations Zeb.

Yes, but you're smart to realize your situation and you are obviously very self-reflective. Now, the onus is on you to figure out the best way to turn that to your advantage and only you can determine the right compensation to recognition to reward ratio for yourself. You, like every pastry chef and baker everywhere, has options. It begins by accurately assessing the situation--yourself and your environment. Don't delude yourself into thinking that there is nothing you can do. There's a lot you can do as this thread reveals--little things that can change quickly but have no real long term impact all by themselves and big things--life-changing things that will have immediate short and long term effects.

Menu is up: http://www.starchefs.com/chefs/rising_star...html/menu.shtml

Rickster--very true. One other thing--as one gets more into this baking stuff, buying an extra stainless steel bowl for your Kitchenaid really helps, especially when whipping and folding things together. So in your opinion--which would be money better spent if you already have a K-aid: a second bowl OR a hand mixer? The cost is about the same. I think I lean toward buying a second bowl.

This is interesting alana "pastry isn't everything when you don't have a restaurant in which to make your desserts." I think that's something integral to this recognition problem: pastry chefs tying their identity and value to their restaurant. A restaurant job and connection can certainly advance your career and level of recognition. Look at that really nice Bon Appetit spread on pastry chefs--how many had leveraged restaurant connections? Just about all of them. Not hotel, patisserie, teaching or bakery connections. The smart/lucky/talented ones, even within this group, have already moved or are in the process of moving past their restaurant identity. But, as I said previously I think you have to be prepared to go beyond that because as we've seen on this thread--a pastry chef's relationship with their chef, ownership and clientele is usually limiting, unsupported and problematic. It's difficult to make a meaningful connection to your customers in a restaurant. And if you rely too much on your restaurant job for your satisfaction and reward you're setting yourself up for dissatisfaction. A restaurant pastry chef is, essentially, an overworked underpaid hourly employee. No more no less. Unless you MAKE yourself more. How might you do that? First, you have to keep looking within, questioning your skill level, reading, networking, trying new things--regardless of whether your current job supports this or encourages this. You have to acquire new skills and knowledge and travel and taste the work of others voraciously. You cannot stay mired in your little area, wherever you may happen to work. Don't use "my customers aren't ready for this" as an excuse. And yes, this growth usually has to happen AFTER your normal tough work week--you have to do your charity gigs, networking, demos in the grocery store, dropping in on other pastry chefs to visit, reading, testing, experimenting, pulling sugar, OUTSIDE of normal work hours. Second, realize that you are not the one that gets to decide what kind of pastry chef you can be in your locale. The LOCALE, your local market, decides what kind of job and compensation and work you can do IN YOUR AREA. No amount of desire, passion, skill, effort and experience can overcome a shitty unappreciative economically-depressed area. If, after trying to change things and looking around, you can't change things, if you're doing work you are not proud of, you have to be prepared to walk off your job or move. What you don't get to do is stay put and complain--it's ultimately self-destructive; Third, without creating an ownership or partnership situation the odds are likely that this "recognition" thing won't ever change for you. Think 5 years down the road. You do have options beside the restaurant grind: you can go the self-employed or entrepreneurial route (why do you think Payard and Torres aren't restaurant pastry chefs anymore?) You can begin a small chocolate business or "freelance" as Sinclair has started to do as long as that is done strategically in ways that position you for better things down the road. You can begin a wedding cake business--you think pastry chefs suck? Cake decorators really suck. Acquire the decorating skills you've avoided all these years, put your pastry and baking skills to use in a niche that really needs help--the "cake decorators" out there are so bad, the level of their work and experience and palate so underwhelming, that I'm surprised more pastry chefs aren't muscling their way into wedding cakes. Face it--pastry chefs in hotels and restaurant hate doing wedding cakes and usually don't have the time or skil to do chocolates. Use that to your advantage. There's some nice money to be had AND you're more likely to control your destiny and how you are perceived in the marketplace. All this leads up to something astute Oreganought said: "I believe the major problem is complacency and fear,if you don't succeed." I agree. Oh, one other thing which can only help get pastry chefs some recognition is this: start posting here at eGullet under your real name. We're read coast to coast by food editors including the NY Times. You never know how relationships and opportunities are going to develop and eGullet is but one way to network with the media. A few months ago Russ Parsons was writing a piece for the LA Times and read something I had written here that he thought would work in his piece. He didn't necessarily agree with what I said--but it made his piece stronger. As a result of Russ's professionalism--I got my first mention in the LA Times, but so did Zaytinya and eGullet.

We have the current Kitchenaid hand mixer, but use it very rarely--on high speed it is barely possible to make a proper italian meringue buttercream. They're not useful at all in comparison to, say, a 5 Qt. Kitchenaid stand mixer, and have zero use when it comes to dough. If you plan to explore baking at all, you should probably just skip ahead, put the $50 or however many bucks a hand mixer would cost, toward the Kitchenaid stand mixer--the good 5 quart model is available from Costco for like $249.

FYI--here's one of my adaptations of the Bau "Breton" which might go well in that tart application: 160 g egg yolks 320 g sugar 300 g salted butter, soft 20 g olive oil 450 g AP flour 30 g baking powder lemon zest

Wendy--Jacques Torres has a good fruit creme brulee in his first book, Dessert Circus--roughly a 50/50 cream:fruit puree ratio. Mango or passionfruit, I forget now. Use puree or coulis--not preserves. I've done it and it works out very well. You have to adjust the time and temp to your oven. Raspberry yoplait is a good call and ain't so bad tasting but I'd worry about a wan color. I'm personally not that big a fan of fruit pieces in a brulee--it never works out well. A modern way to pull off a raspberry creme brulee might be to cook a raspberry caramel--caramel deglazed with puree--stir in some dried raspberry powder--pour it out--let it harden--then grind it up into a powder. When it comes time to brulee the brulee--sprinkle this fruit powder on instead of brown sugar and caramelize.

Welcome to eGullet right back at you Rocks. This is a great place--I may just hang out here more often! Before we get down to business, though: Joe's Lobster Pound better than Hugo's? Not that I've been to Joe's, but my meal at Hugo's last weekend was superb. Based on one meal, it might your solid third spot if somehow transportable to DC. Off-topic, though. Well, at least I couched my assumptions with language like "guessing" "probably" and "likely," right? On the net that counts as restrained, hesitant and not rushing to judgement. I also did not connect your reviews on other threads--and took up merely what you offered in that first post by way of comparison. Maestro and Citronelle: I assumed creative cooking, very high check average, formal service, elegant surroundings, deep lists Euro-heavy. That's simplistic but correct, no? And I also promise to read closer next time, ok? (Was that "don't take this the wrong way--tour bus" crack yours?) Now that you've spelled out more of your criteria--I think you'd probably have to weight "value" and "creativity" a little higher as categories or criteria to legitimately include what Jose has created at Cafe, i.e. all other things aren't equal. Within Cafe certainly the minibar omakase and the dim sum would have the best chance of scoring high on your scale, even unmodifed. Neither of these are Jose's consummate statement. They're his statement right now, incredible palate interest, "value" and "creativity" at that price point and he'll no doubt surpass it. Without that concession--I suspect there's not a clear third. How I'd rank them for you based on meals in the last year: after 3 meals at Cafe 15, it probably comes the closest--it has the best pastry chef of the bunch (a big plus) but the cooking, while impeccably executed is still more classic and refined than creative--possibly not creative enough. Then after maybe 5 meals at Le Relais--their desserts underwhelm for this level, the cooking is somewhat more creative, though less impeccably executed, than Cafe 15. We really like the fixed price deal in the bar. The Inn has seemed too conservative and too expensive for a long time though might score the points for consistency and service--I think even Inn fans are finally realizing this. (No recent meals.) And I've yet to experience the Laboratorio treatment--only regular Galileo before their very good pastry chef moved on--so that's the wildcard, perhaps, for you. Many others have and wax poetic, though. I also think your comment about formality being a style could be the basis of a good long discussion.

Sham--me personally--I couldn't care less how you referred to anything. Don't read any of that into it. That was just one of those moments, just a little thing, for me, that reinforced what kind of fun-crazy-interesting-addictive place eGullet is, when you read something like that--huh, see my post on page 35 if you get a chance--and just take it in stride. Please don't sweat the details and just keep on posting and having fun.

I have nothing much to add to this fantastic thread, except to say that I've read along diligently and have been as engrossed and entertained by this thread as I have been by the show. It's been must-read, must-see TV. Thank you especially to all the insiders who've been so forthcoming--my hope is you manage to stick around. There have just been so many little joys on this thread, most recently shamrock writing "can you weigh in on my earlier post (p. 35)?" undoubtedly with a straight face (page 35!) and that touching GotChianti? story about Laurent. So in case any of you Rocco survivors don't realize this, there are many, many of us here who haven't posted much on this thread but who are really grateful you're here.

I think in order to do that meaningfully, Darren, have to go back to DonRocks original post, which began with him saying "Citronelle and Maestro are head-and-shoulders above anything in the DC area" and asking what's third? He's vague about the terms and criteria but I'm guessing he means haute: spare no expense, overall fine dining experience in an elegant, luxurious setting with a deep, expensive list. "Value" probably is not a criteria, creativity and brilliance of the chef or food outside of a luxe setting is probably not a criteria. Cafe is, well, a "cafe"--leaving aside Jose's brilliance on display there with someone as talented as Kats heading up the kitchen--their list wouldn't hold up to Old World wine scrutiny and neither would the decor. Cafe isn't physically appointed well enough to stretch into that haute-luxe category. The likely contenders for third for him are Cafe 15, Le Relais, Laboratorio, the Inn. (Maybe Elysium if he posed this question back when Gian Piero was cooking there.) Now, personally, I'd put Jose and his dishes--especially that deconstructed clam chowder dish--which we did once in NYC together like 2 years ago--up against the most touching dishes I've ever had--and foodwise I've been touched by many chefs, Ducasse, Richard, Gagnaire, Conticini, etc, each in their own way. A version of that clam dish is now on the new upstairs Cafe minibar "omakase." Yes, there's the creative dim sum brunch, which is an incredible dining value, as well. Yes, it would be very tough, probably impossible to choose meaningfully between Fabio, Michel and Jose as far as creativity and excellence of cuisine is concerned. But no, for the sake of what I sense DonRocks wants to know--Cafe isn't in the same "class" and wouldn't be a contender for his "third" spot.

Zagat? How 'bout Gourmet magazine? The October 2000 Gourmet ranked DC Coast as the top spot in DC. The 2001 Gourmet had the Inn at #12 nationally, tops in DC and few spots ahead of Citronelle. (Of course, they also ranked Chez Panisse #1 overall.) Gourmet hedged their bets in 2002 by not ranking top restaurants locally or nationally. In DC, Top for "business" was Citronelle, Top for "Buzz" was Palena, Top for "personal favorite"--which in their language meant "where we'd choose to eat if we had just one night to spend in that city"--was the Inn. Wonder what 2003 will bring?

Here's my basic shortbread cookie dough: 430g butter, 250g 10X, 1 T vanilla extract, pinch salt and 585g cake flour--10 minutes at 190 C (375 F) I could have sworn I posted this before--did you search? You could also grate some zest into this. There's a very nice Breton shortbread dough in the Bau pastry book, as well, to compare.

"The key for the independent is recognizing espresso as a culinary art and giving it the attention to detail that it requires." Which begs the question--how often do we try espresso in restaurants? I can't tell you the number of times I've wished I've gotten something at least as good as Starbucks in a restaurant. In that environment, with service staff pulling espresso around their already hectic pace, it may just be "Super-auto machines and espresso pods" with say Illy or La Colombe pods, is the answer--even though neither would probably rank as the very best espresso options out there. The question I have for all you Starbucks haters out there--isn't restaurant espresso generally worse than scalded milk over-roasted high-altitude-grown bean Starbucks? Is there hope for restaurant espresso ever rising above Starbucks?

Thank you and welcome to eG FT. I think everyone will understand if THAT is the reason you're pulled away! Congratulations to you for the real honor here--the impending birth of your second little one. I do not know how chefs with kids do it. Do you have a backup plan in place to cover your dishes if you get the call from the hospital? Mind sharing with everyone what you're planning to do at this event? Have you picked a wine?

So you are looking for books on plated desserts, showpieces and confectionery? Ewald has two books on sugarwork, both in English. Both highly recommended--if you can only buy one book, buy the second, newer one; it's more inspiring and the better of the two. The only other sugar book to consider is the French book by Stephane Glacier--Sucre d'art--I think it is $90 at JB Prince--and it is in English as well. Stephane is amazing, but then so is Ewald. Neither book addresses isomalt, however. The Glacier sugar book is in the same vein as the "Chocolat - behind the scenes" book by Philippe Bertrand and Philippe Marand, which is also in English and the best book out there on chocolate artistry. A bargain at $59 bucks from JB Prince. I don't recommend Oppeneder--his chocolate book is crap. From everything I've seen he seems a cheesy Ewald-wannabe without Ewald's talent. But I have not seen his new book. As far as confectionery, there's a nice little French book on petits fours by Pascal Brunstein, also in English, which still holds up well. I like the section in the Bau pastry book on chocolate confectionery and ganache. I also have that Richemont Swiss Confectionery series on the shelf but hardly ever open it. As far as what you'll get out of any of these books, that depends on your skill level. Pastrylady is right that a hands-on class sets you up to do more valuable experimenting with these books later. But then a week of sugar instruction sets you back $700-800. As far as how books in English with desserts go, probably one-two is still 1) Balaguer and 2) Bau. We've discussed these on the site extensively.

Is no one prepared to make the case that Starbucks has actually been good for raising coffee awareness in the US? That the main reason we had that independent roaster boom outside of SF and Seattle and these little independent entrepreneurs opening all around the country--that a Kevin Knox and Allegro got bought out by a Whole Foods--that the terms robusta and arabica and espresso and Rancilio Sylvia and Illy are even on our radar across the country is because of Starbucks? Because some good pioneering coffee fanatics sold out to Starbucks way back when and some others didn't? Exposure was brought to all these now "industry veterans." Now our baseline coffee awareness isn't the lowest common denominator but the medium common denominator as was very astutely mentioned previously. Now we're at the point where those who care can take the level of discussion up to another level. We can talk about coffee tasting of its terroir, of its place; we can talk about coffee and sustainable agriculture. We can begin to say don't bash Starbucks outright but instead "taste" your coffee--and let your palate tell you whether it is good or not? It's not good or bad inherently because it is Starbucks. Oh, and theminx, with respect to Baltimore, more Starbucks opening and "this is the closest we'll ever get to being like Manhattan," I empathize. It might also be the closest Baltimore will get to Washington, DC as well.

If anyone hasn't already followed tanabutler's link, recounting a wonderful farm dinner she attended with Alice Waters and one of the cheese artisans, you're missing something special: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=ST...T&f=13&t=26325& What I wonder is--are winemakers being urged by Alice to "stay small and go organic" as she's urging these cheese artisans? Does anyone know who is closer to the scene out there? If not, why? How has her "take" been received by California's wine industry? Winemakers are farmers first. It would seem to me that if there was realistic value in this message, the higher end/boutique elements of the wine industry would be much more likely to have embraced this message, been certified "organic" and it would have a much greater overall impact than artisinal cheese makers, no? I'd bet, though, that even the small, passionate, most environmentally-caring winemakers--say the Chappellets or Deborah Cahn and Ted Bennett of Navarro--wouldn't pass this too-idealistic Alice Waters litmus test--parroted by the media--if it were applied to them. Yet Navarro is always on the Chez Panisse list. Are there different value systems for cheese and wine? As I was reading your post Jonathan, I thought of the Deborah and Ted example. They are "organic" and environmentally-aware according to their own vision and definition for their hilly land, not Alice's, not Oregon Tilth, etc. They protect their ancient redwood groves on the top of their hills in the Anderson Valley because it is the right thing to do. Their wines are wonderful, sell out at their current production levels mostly "direct to customers" and every year some of their planned production, especially with their late harvest botrytised dessert wines, is a crap shoot--and lost revenue--a farmer's best intentions affected by the vagaries of the weather. In my mind, they've transcended the Waters effect--their customers vote with their palate year after year by supporting their products and they aren't hijacked by not being organic enough or small enough according to someone else's standard. In light of Steve Shaw's post, do you ever wonder how relevant the comparisons are between winemaking and cheesemaking? And what did you learn about yourself, the marketplace, and your strengths or values, which prompt you this time to stay small rather than become medium-sized again?

Well stated and a pleasure to read. Your conclusion, though, which I personally agree with, seems to contradict the Waters message. Her message doesn't seem to be "paying more for real quality, as only your palate can define it, is what is going to get us out." Her message has very little to do with palate--just to take a quote from this cheese address we're talking about. Most important to her: “Sustainability is the most important issue in this world today,” Waters said. No matter how delicious the cheese, Waters said she will always inquire about its origins prior to consumption. “It’s a beautiful cheese but tell me, what were those animals eating? Was it organic feed? I want to support those people whose values are the same as mine,” Waters said. The contrary set of values – fast food values – represent everything that is fast, cheap and easy, she continued." That said, a comment like yours: "Organic milk produced by confining cows indoors and feeding them organically raised grain is NOT what the founders of the movement had in mind" is exactly the kind of real world, knowing, producer-specific comment which deserves a wider audience. If only the visionaries would work that into their stock script instead of taking the simplistic, easy way out--"organic good, fast food values bad." Thing is, too, there's a lot of room--in the real world-- between "organic and small scale" and those evil fast food values of big business. And she knows full well if we relied on our palates we'd find wonderful products all along that sliding scale. Did either of you attend this gig?

Tana--is there a link to your post somewhere? We'd love to read it. Hest88--good observation--however, if it was presented as business strategy to stay small and expensive because you'll ultimately make more money--with examples of other products and brands to reinforce the point--I think that would come across differently--less poetic, less spiritual, less, well, socialist. I also think those actually producing something rather than preaching--like these cheesemakers who produce more than give visionary speeches--would be in a better position to talk about brand identity, positioning and market penetration. Then we could realistically talk of various strategies and how to make a living in a crowded marketplace. That isn't how this Waters babble is usually presented, however. I'm with fifi as well. I find I empathize with Olsen and Fiscalini and Johnson in all this--and the last thing any passionate artisan needs is some preachy semi-retired mythic figure recycling the same old-same old. That's why I wondered just how many or few of those artisans received Waters lecture positively and whether anyone broke it down like you did Hest88. Problem with your interesting take, docsconz, is if most people who cared formed their opinion of what to buy and what is "good" according to St. Alice, you and they would miss out on Ginger Olsen's "award-winning Capricious farmstead goat cheese" because she doesn't purchase organic feed from an unknown supplier, she instead buys affordable alfalfa from a (known) local grower. And as a result, she fails the Alice Waters litmus test--and if you took your market direction from Alice Waters--her cheese wouldn't pass. You'd be less likely to buy and taste the cheese and form your own opinion. And that would be too bad. That's but one unintended consequence of a propped up saint sticking around too long. Misdirection.

Nice catch, thanks for that link. Waters offered predictably delusional Slow Food-ish boilerplate and the cheese artisans countered, essentially saying sorry, but we live in the real world. I wonder if this address received any other coverage and whether a panel discussion followed where Waters could rebut these real world reactions. I'd like to have heard or read that exchange. Thing is, I imagine most of the cheese artisans saying "judge me on my end result, my product is either good or it isn't" and I find that pretty compelling. I wonder how many manufacturers in the audience supported Waters and whether only a "few" disagreed. Anyone have any other leads--or perhaps was in attendance?